Alcoholic - Where to Start for Help

LegacyUser

Hey guys,

I am going to keep this as brief, unemotional & to the point as possible... otherwise you'll be asleep by the time I get to my questions!
My Dad's an alcoholic. And he's bad. He's tried councelling (forced through work) and he's tried the anti-anxiety tabs (forced through family/GP). Needless to say neither worked & he's been on a downwards spiral ever since. Things have gotten really bad, the usual story; my family are devestated, divided, feel helpless etc. I'm amazed he still has a job & certain he wont hold it for much longer & my Mam is a different person; depressed, lonely, angry, nervous, no confidence, basically she's aged 20 years in the space of 2 & if action isn't taken soon I'm afraid of what will happen to her.
So. We've decided as a family something is going to happen, with or without his agreement. Only thing is I haven't a clue where to start

And here follow my (many!) questions: If any of you have been through a similar experience or feel you might be able to help I'd be so grateful.

The plan is to sit him down with the family (as opposed to screaming matches as individuals!) and discuss the problem. I've tried myself many times to be met with broken promises but we're hoping if we all get together and let him know we're not ganging up on him / blaming him (although I cant help but add that I bloody well do :mad:) but that he has a serious problem and hopefully, get him to first of all admit to it (which he has done on many occasions only to deny it the next day!) and secondly agree to get help. Basically we're giving him one last shot to open his eyes and do it for himself.

So, lets say this works. I want to be armed with information as to what he/we can do and get the ball rolling there and then. Our feeling is that the only thing that can help him right now is to get him away from temptation and get him dry for a few weeks, after which hopefully he will see the damage he is doing to himself & us and perhaps councelling will help then.
So how do I go about it? What is my first point of contact?? I've spent my weekend researching and come up with very little. The Rutland Centre is ideally what we are thinking, but without the massive fees which we could never cover. Is there such a place for the average Joe Soap who dont have plenty of €€€s to throw about? The HSE has come up on many other forums I've read... but who exactly do I contact there? Surely I dont just ring the main office or email info@ and explain the whole sorry situation to whoever happens to be on the other end?!!

And lets say our chat / plea / whatever you call it doesnt work, which is quite likely. Is it possible to admit him without his consent under the grounds that he is a danger to himself, my Mam (although I will point out that he has never been violent, I mean mental health / stress kind of thing) and in danger of loosing his family / job? If so, again, what is my first point of contact? If this is not possible can anyone tell me where my Mam stands in all of this? She simply cant go on living like this and is too proud / stubborn / concerned about our lives to move in with any of the kids. Does she have any legal rights over a house that they both own / is there help out there to support her (financially) if she were to leave him?

Sorry people, this ended up far longer than I intended but thanks a million for any help / info you might be able to offer. As you can see I am determinded to get this sorted once and for all, with or without his consent (before someone tells me I cant make him stop drinking, I am fully aware of that having spent many years trying so if he's not willing to stop he can bloody well do it elsewhere!!) I just need a push in the right direction to find out what our options are.

Thanks again

LegacyUser

Me again sorry I couldnt edit my post I'm not a member here. Just to say we're in Dublin if that helps thanks!

Nevyn

ok firstly you can not force him to start treatment if he does not want to he can't be made he as to want to get better and change.

I would suggest that you get in touch with St. John of gods about arranging a stay from him there and what their terms and conditions are.
http://www.sjog.ie/services/index.html

You mother needs help and support, has she been to her own gp about her own health and stress?

I would also suggest that both her and your self go to al anon meetings,
they are for people who need help and support due to having an alcoholic in their life. There are lots of meetings in Dublin.
http://www.al-anon-ireland.org/Dublin%20meetings.htm

And while it may be good for you to go to the first one or two together for support after that it would be best if you had your own meetings that way
you won't inhibit each other.

You Mam should also find a family law solicitor to look into the house and where she stands legally.

I am sorry you have having to go through all of this but there support there for you.

LegacyUser

Heya,
I feel I need to go unreged for this!
I'm actually in a very similar situation to yourself but the roles are reversed in that my mother is an abusive drunk whom we've tried to help many times but it always ends up back to the same situation so much so that myself and my sister barely speak to her now! I've been told that there's nothing we can do to force her to get help, she has to want it but ofcourse she claims she doesnt have a problem.
We were given contact details for Stanhope Street centre but again we haven't had any luck in getting her to attend any counselling! Hope yours goes better mate!
Details are here, you possibly need a referal from a HSE counciler, we got the details in Kilbarrack,cant hyper link it so copy and paste!
www.vazumo.com/companydetails/49284/Alcohol-Service-Stanhope-Centre

Beetlebum

Unregistered wrote: »

Me again sorry I couldnt edit my post I'm not a member here. Just to say we're in Dublin if that helps thanks!

Hey There,

My heart goes out to you and your family. I understand how frustrating living with a selfish alcoholic can be but there is hope for your Dad yet.
My mam died a few years ago from acute alcohol poisoning. For years I tried so hard to get her to stop drinking but she was a really bad case. My Dad was also an alcoholic at the time. I won't speak too much about my mam because it got the better of her in the end but my Dad saved himself.

My Dad was a raging alcoholic for years. Everytime I thought he'd hit rock bottom something else would happen and all of our lives were spiralling out of control. He once fell down the stairs and broke his shoulder but was too drunk to notice or care and it was only when I called over one day I saw his arm hanging down by his side and made him go to the hospital. To this day he can't lift his right arm above shoulder level. My mam dying hit him really hard but it didn't scare him into sobriety. He kept on drinking. I had to call an ambulance for him on more then one occasion after he'd gone insane from drinking 40+ cans a day. He was averaging between 30 - 40 cans a day at one point. He seemed like a lost cause and my heart was broken from seeing my mam die from alcohol and my Dad abusing it the way he was.

It all came to a head around Christmas time 2 years ago. I'd been out with my best friend and we arrived back to my house to find my Dad out of his mind drunk, literally out of his min. We counted 40 cans beside his chair. He was babbling non-sensically and howling like a wolf. That sounds kinda funny when I type it but it was far from funny in reality. It was terrifying. I called an ambulance and he was brought up to Beaumount where he ended up staying for nearly two months. He was so ill from drinking and had spotting on his liver and slight brain damage. He was told that if he drank again he'd be dead in 6 months. That was it. He left hospital in January and swore never again. Thankfully, after 18 years of empty promises and false hope, he meant it. He hasn't drank since.

There is hope even for the most extreme cases but your Dad has to want to stop.

My advice to you is to get yourself councilling so you are better equipt with dealing with the situation. I went to a place called Stanhope Street and they were fantastic. I also went to Al-Anon meetings and found it comforting hearing other peoples stories and knowing I wasn't alone. I would aslo move out if I was you. I don't knwo how old you are but if you're over 18 move out. You will be better support to your family if you are not slap bang in the centre of the situation. It is too damaging for you.

In order for your Dad to be committed, you need a Doctor and two phycologists, and all family memebers consent. I don't think this is a good idea but I understand how helpless you feel. I would go to your local GP and explain what's going on.

I don't know what else to say. Be strong. My heart really does go out to you.

LegacyUser

Beetlebum wrote: »

In order for your Dad to be committed, you need a Doctor and two phycologists, and all family memebers consent. I don't think this is a good idea but I understand how helpless you feel. I would go to your local GP and explain what's going on.

I don't know what else to say. Be strong. My heart really does go out to you.

Sorry to hijack this again! Beetlebum, is this the case? We tried to go down this route with my mother re: getting her into St. Eta's (SP) as she's lost touch with reality on more then 1 occassion and has turned violent , to the point of brandishing a carving knife & threatening to kill us. She was referred to Eta's by our GP who use to work there and the Dr. we met was no help at all. He wouldn't admit her and his conclusion was "She's not an alcoholic she's a very sad lady" these were his words and it gave my mother damaging confidence that she didn't have a problem.This was all backed up by video evidence of her losing it but he wouldn't acknowledge it. Our GP told us this would be the case when we went up there as they try their best to refuse people with alcohol/drug problems, again these were my GP's words.

On a brighter (kinda) and even more coincidental note, she just rang Stanhope street as she's extremely depressed (well made me ring them but she eventually spoke to them) but it's going to take around 7 days before she can be seen!

Again, sorry about hijacking, I'm half venting,looking for advice and randomly babbling!

Phoenix_Rising

The book "ill stop tomorrow" contains a chapter for families of alcoholics about organising an intervention. It might be worth a look.

Link - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ill-Stop-Tomorrow-Paul-Campbell/dp/1856355381

Excellent book in general, it might give you an insight into why your dad acts the way he does.

Best of luck, my heart goes out to you.

Beetlebum

Unregistered wrote: »

Sorry to hijack this again! Beetlebum, is this the case? We tried to go down this route with my mother re: getting her into St. Eta's (SP) as she's lost touch with reality on more then 1 occassion and has turned violent , to the point of brandishing a carving knife & threatening to kill us. She was referred to Eta's by our GP who use to work there and the Dr. we met was no help at all. He wouldn't admit her and his conclusion was "She's not an alcoholic she's a very sad lady" these were his words and it gave my mother damaging confidence that she didn't have a problem.This was all backed up by video evidence of her losing it but he wouldn't acknowledge it. Our GP told us this would be the case when we went up there as they try their best to refuse people with alcohol/drug problems, again these were my GP's words.

On a brighter (kinda) and even more coincidental note, she just rang Stanhope street as she's extremely depressed (well made me ring them but she eventually spoke to them) but it's going to take around 7 days before she can be seen!

Again, sorry about hijacking, I'm half venting,looking for advice and randomly babbling!

My Dad also had crippling depression and was constantly in and out of St.Pats and Portrane throughout the years. This is what my doctor told me. She wasw illing to have him committed as was one pychologist in St.Pats. My sisters both live abroad so it was down to me finding another pychologist to agree and signing it myself. In the end my heart was breaking and I couldn't do it. My Dad is a really well eductaed (used to be a professor of English) lovely, kind man who has lost his mind a bit but I'm so glad now that i didn't do it. People can turn around miraculously. Brandishing a knife though? Oh you poor thing and your poor mam. It's so sad and sometimes Doctor's are really unhelpful. She's just a sad lady - well, yeah!! Clearly!! So help her please. Jesus...

stephen_n

To the original poster, until your father admits he is an alcoholic and I don't just mean when he is either drunk or hung over and would say anything to be left alone then there is not very much you can do. Interventions will only work if they are followed by clear and obvious repercussions should your father not change. In the end your family has to make a choice about what they are prepared to accept from him and what they are prepared to do about it. Tough love and tough action is required when dealing with alcoholics because generally it is only when everything is gone that they will attempt to recover. A simple ultimatum to either do something about the problem or leave is the only real course of action you can take that may help your father.

If he admits he has a problem and is genuinely willing to do something about it then get him to go to AA
http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/opencontent/default.asp

username123

Hi OP,
My father was an alcoholic all of his adult life and my mother was seriously co-dependant, and I came to the place emotionally where you are now at one point as well.

First of all - I understand that you want to organise an intervention and try to make your dad see sense, and thats a good thing. Unfortunately it might come to nothing. My own father had a number of interventions over the years and on many occasions would totally reasonably tell me and the rest of us that we were right, it was destroying himself, it was destroying his life etc... Then he would leave the room and drink a bottle of vodka.

I tried everything to get him to stop. I couldnt. And before I got help for myself I ended up in hospital with stress related illnesses, my mother suffered a stroke that left her paralysed on one side and child like in mind, my brother left the family entirely and refused to communicate with any of us and every other family member (except 1 aunt) wouldnt come near the house because they had had enough of my father.

In your particular case your father has already made plenty of broken promises right? So no particular reason for him to change that pattern if the only new aspect is that a lot of people confront him instead of one at a time. However, by the whole family changing their behaviour towards him and allowing him to clean up his own messes, stop enabling him and start becoming healthy (in mind) themselves you have a better chance of helping him.
You will find out how to do all that at Alanon, it quite literally saved my life.

About committing him. Its very very difficult. Plus if its done against his will he will quite likely go along and play nice til he is let out and then its back to the bottle. In a lot of cases unless there is violence involved doctors and psychologists wont commit alcoholics anyway. Chances are that mentally he is grand and would pass psychological testing, but just cant stop his addiction. That doesnt qualify you as crazy unfortunately. Committing someone is taking away their civil liberties and its not illegal to be an alcoholic.

Now - Id like to throw an idea out there at you that you will probably think is mad. Its not your responsibility, or the responsibility of anyone else in the family, to stop him drinking. Its not. He is the one responsible for it. Plus, your mum has choices too - she could leave him. So please dont feel that its your job to sort out 2 adults - it isnt. When I first heard that I though the person telling me it just hadnt a clue - now I realise how clueless I was.

I suggest to you as part of your research on all of this that you attend Alanon and also, phone the AA line yourself and tell the person on the other end this story - they will back up that there is not much you can do but look after yourself, I know its horrible, but unfortunately you cant help an alcoholic stop drinking, you can only support them if they decide to do it themselves.

Everyone has their personal rock bottom, for your Dad it might take his whole family turning their backs on him and losing his job. For others its less extreme, and for others its more extreme.

Good luck, one day at a time and look after YOURSELF.

Camomille

You could try Cuan Mhuire, it's a charity down in Athy. It's run by nuns, so quite religious, but they offer a 12 week program and it's 135 Euros per week.

LegacyUser

I really feel for you and the situation that you and your family are currently in, and i am in a similar situation. My dad is also an alcoholic. We have gone down the road of interventions numerous times, but even drunk he will not admit he has a problem. He is seriously depressed, and reckons everything and everyone is out to get him.
He has hit what you would think was rock bottom so many times now, but has still not stopped drinking (one night he got beaten up on the way home from the pub and his leg was broke in 3 places, he was on crutches for months, but ended up been able to head off to the pub on his crutches and still getting locked)
To the guy who said that his dad was howling like a wolf, this is also an issue that I have experienced with my dad, when he gets really drunk, he sings at the top of voice and howls also, sounds like an injured animal, it is really disturbing and it scares the hell out of me.
Anyhow, feel like I am hi-jacking this post, but basically I wanted to say that things improved temporarily when we all decided to follow through on our last intervention, and never go drinking with him, or invite him to family occasions. he was not invited to one of my nieces christenings, and also one of my nieces birthdays, and this broke his heart. he really started laying off the drink for a long while then. however, I thought he was doing really good so when I got engaged I invited him to my engagement party. While he behaved at that, he has been acting up no end since, as if he feels that all has been forgiven and that he can go back to his old ways now. We prob gave in too soon, and we are now back in a position of not inviting him to events etc. Maybe this would be something worth considering? If he is ignored for long enough maybe he will start to realise that he has to change something to get back in the family circle?

Taltos

We also tried interventions.
The final one was where we told her we had spoken her GP and had arranged to have her sectioned for her own protection.

The shock / "betrayal" of that caused her to go immediately to the GP and admit she had an issue. 9yrs later still clean. And sometimes she will admit she has a problem but mostly she does not talk about it.

This was the last thing we could do, luckily for us it worked.

I really hope you get through this and you and your mum get the help you both need/deserve.

But - in my case if the above had not worked I was walking away for good, we all were.

firesidechat

A very close friend of mine is well on the way to killing himself
with drink.He is drinking around the clock lately and taking sleeping pills
to calm the jitters .He is a mess,totaly depressed. Doctor told him 3 years ago that his liver was damaged and cant take the stress of his daily intake. He is eating maybe twice a week, Has blanked out in the pub and fallen to the floor.He looks 30 years older than he is . Now he is getting very bloated,which is a sure sign of liver failure. His girlfriend and i sat him down about six months ago ,told him what he was doing to himself ,and he promised to make changes...If anything he has gotten worse.
He is as stubborn as a mule and very hard to talk to, i dont even know if he can retain conversations anymore..If he keeps this up we will be going to a funeral within weeks, His girlfriend,and i are meeting with his daughter this evening and we want to explore all options to get him help.
I know in my heart if we take the soft approach with him ,he will promise the sun,stars and moon,until we go away ,and then he will continue his drinking. We need to get really tough with him to send the message home.
How ? I dont know. Any advice please, This is probably our last chance to help him. Please help.. Thanks.

username123

firesidechat wrote: »

A very close friend of mine is well on the way to killing himself
with drink.He is drinking around the clock lately and taking sleeping pills
to calm the jitters .He is a mess,totaly depressed. Doctor told him 3 years ago that his liver was damaged and cant take the stress of his daily intake. He is eating maybe twice a week, Has blanked out in the pub and fallen to the floor.He looks 30 years older than he is . Now he is getting very bloated,which is a sure sign of liver failure. His girlfriend and i sat him down about six months ago ,told him what he was doing to himself ,and he promised to make changes...If anything he has gotten worse.
He is as stubborn as a mule and very hard to talk to, i dont even know if he can retain conversations anymore..If he keeps this up we will be going to a funeral within weeks, His girlfriend,and i are meeting with his daughter this evening and we want to explore all options to get him help.
I know in my heart if we take the soft approach with him ,he will promise the sun,stars and moon,until we go away ,and then he will continue his drinking. We need to get really tough with him to send the message home.
How ? I dont know. Any advice please, This is probably our last chance to help him. Please help.. Thanks.

Look, its commendable that you are such a good friend and want to help your pal out. But you have to accept that you actually cannot help him, he can only help himself.
My father was in bits physically from alcohol for many years, the part that shocked me the most was that he wasnt dead years earlier - the body can take a huge amount of punishment.

I strongly suggest that yourself, his girlfriend and his daughter (if she is old enough) go to Alanon. You will get proper advice and support there.

On confronting someone - the only thing thats gonna help him decide to get help is if he loses everything through his alcoholism and knows the only way to get these things back is to address the alcoholism. So you gotta make decisions and stick to them. Tell him his behaviour is unacceptable and that unless he gets help you can no longer be a friend to him, same for his girlfriend and daughter. Tell him you will all rally round and support him as soon as he goes for the proper help. But unless he is willing to get help you have to cut him off. And MEAN IT. You cannot go back on your words otherwise he will just think none of it was serious and he will carry on. Do not clean up any messes he makes, do not sort out any crisis he creates, do not go see him in hospital if he puts himself in there as a result of an alcoholic accident or alcoholic poisoning, ONLY be there for him if he agrees to stop and makes actions to stop.
Make it very very very clear that you all love him and want to help him but condoning his behaviour through friendship/relationship is only enabling him.

Sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better. Sometimes it doesnt get better at all.
Good luck - I have known of people in a worse state than your friend who got recovery but only in cases where the alcoholic themselves wanted to make the change.

LilMrsDahamsta

Just to clarify the involuntary admission issue as it has been mentioned a few times in this thread ...

A person can only be involuntarily admitted to a psychiatric hospital if they have a "mental disorder" (a term defined narrowly in Irish law). The legislation specifically excludes the use of this procedure for people who are "addicted to drugs or other intoxicants" (which would include alcohol), but have no other mental health problems.

While posters above may know of alcoholics admitted involuntarily, they can only have been admitted for the treatment of a mental disorder, not their alcoholism per se. While the period period of abstinance in hospital may be of great benefit to them, they cannot be kept there against their wishes unless they continue to have a mental disorder with requires treatment in hospital.

Sam34 has posted about the medical perspective on this issue and the procedures involved very extensively if you want to search through posts on boards for more information about the process.

Good luck to all who have to deal with these difficult issues.

Danniboo

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

Just to clarify the involuntary admission issue as it has been mentioned a few times in this thread ...

A person can only be involuntarily admitted to a psychiatric hospital if they have a "mental disorder" (a term defined narrowly in Irish law). The legislation specifically excludes the use of this procedure for people who are "addicted to drugs or other intoxicants" (which would include alcohol), but have no other mental health problems.

While posters above may know of alcoholics admitted involuntarily, they can only have been admitted for the treatment of a mental disorder, not their alcoholism per se. While the period period of abstinance in hospital may be of great benefit to them, they cannot be kept there against their wishes unless they continue to have a mental disorder with requires treatment in hospital.

Sam34 has posted about the medical perspective on this issue and the procedures involved very extensively if you want to search through posts on boards for more information about the process.

Good luck to all who have to deal with these difficult issues.

On this note i'd just like to point out that long term alcohol abuse can lead to alcohol induced dementia along with other mental issues.

LegacyUser

My mother is an alcoholic. She has been since I was a small child. This has always been a massive issue for my family, but we are the only Dublin based unit. My father passed away in August, so now it's just myself left with her.

I attempted suicide 2 weeks ago, and was in ICU for 3 days, she visited me once for an hour, got bored and when home proceeded to leave me abusive voicemails. She then pitched up to my ward on mother's day horrifically drunk and started shouting that I "couldn't even kill myself properly, no wonder she drinks with such a failure for a daughter". Security had to remove her from the grounds. When my friends confronted her and when her family travelled from the country she basically told them to piss off.

I have been out of hospital since Thursday, when I came home I told her that she could have me or the drink, but not both of us. She called me a dictating bitch and told me to keep my nose out of her business. Now, the thing is, she hadn't eaten while I'd been in hospital, hadn't emptied the bins, done anything. She constantly gets to drunk that she falls over or down the stairs, etc. So for all my bluff I think it was a hollow threat I presented her with. Living her is clearly damaging my mental health (and my back from carrying her about). However, in hospital I was so worried about her, was she okay, eating, washing, etc. I am considering moving out, but I also know this would melt my head.

She is refusing to go anywhere (she was in Pat's in 2003 for 12 weeks, but hit the bottle straight away when she was released) for help, and she is contuining to drink. Is there anyway I can have her commited? Or what can I do? I don't want to leave her.

Firedance

problemmother wrote: »

My mother is an alcoholic. She has been since I was a small child. This has always been a massive issue for my family, but we are the only Dublin based unit. My father passed away in August, so now it's just myself left with her.

I attempted suicide 2 weeks ago, and was in ICU for 3 days, she visited me once for an hour, got bored and when home proceeded to leave me abusive voicemails. She then pitched up to my ward on mother's day horrifically drunk and started shouting that I "couldn't even kill myself properly, no wonder she drinks with such a failure for a daughter". Security had to remove her from the grounds. When my friends confronted her and when her family travelled from the country she basically told them to piss off.

I have been out of hospital since Thursday, when I came home I told her that she could have me or the drink, but not both of us. She called me a dictating bitch and told me to keep my nose out of her business. Now, the thing is, she hadn't eaten while I'd been in hospital, hadn't emptied the bins, done anything. She constantly gets to drunk that she falls over or down the stairs, etc. So for all my bluff I think it was a hollow threat I presented her with. Living her is clearly damaging my mental health (and my back from carrying her about). However, in hospital I was so worried about her, was she okay, eating, washing, etc. I am considering moving out, but I also know this would melt my head.

She is refusing to go anywhere (she was in Pat's in 2003 for 12 weeks, but hit the bottle straight away when she was released) for help, and she is contuining to drink. Is there anyway I can have her commited? Or what can I do? I don't want to leave her.

I came accross this thread looking for 'intervention' and saw your post, I know its been a while since you posted but I hope you are doing ok. You should contact Al Anon, be supported by others who will understand exactly what you are going through (because they've really been there too). When you get the support you need for yourself, and we all need that support, you might find you are better able to cope with your mum and make decisions.

Unregistered

Unregistered wrote: »

Our feeling is that the only thing that can help him right now is to get him away from temptation and get him dry for a few weeks, after which hopefully he will see the damage he is doing to himself & us and perhaps councelling will help then.

You absolutely must only treat alcoholism under the close supervision of a doctor. Depending on the length of the addiction, his body may have become physically dependent. Severe alcohol withdrawal may develop into delerium tremens ("the shakes"), which can be fatal without appropriate treatment (benzodiazepines).