Idea for New Blind Structure

JP Poker

Most of you who have played at any my events know I do my best to not allow my games turn into crapshoots as I often repeat levels and freeze the blinds.

I've been thinking about this alot and have come up with an idea.

You start the game as normal
10-15k Starting Chips
Blinds 25-50 at say 30 Mins

The blinds continue to increase as normal until the reach a certain range of Ave stack to BB's.

Say your range is 35-40 BB's

Your aim is to keep the tournament in this range until the end of the tournament.

If the Ave stack to BB's goes below 35 you repeat the level.

If the Ave stack to BB's goes above 40 you increase the blinds.

If the Ave stack to BB's is in between 35-40 the blinds increase every 30 Mins.

To ensure that the tournament doesn't run to long, the most your will rerun a level is say 3 times.

What do you think?

nicnicnic

JP you are a genius

JP Poker

nicnicnic wrote: »

JP you are a genius

So you like it;)

Four of a kind

Excellent Idea JP. This would def go down well everywhere and cut out the moans about tournies turning into crap shoots!

Carlo

thechamp87

This is something I have thought about before, but had a slightly different idea.

In my idea for a tournament, there is no clock, and I imagined having a tournament with c.100bbs effective stack for the whole tournament.

For this to work, the blinds change as x amount of players get knocked out, say for example, every 10 players that get knocked out, the blinds increase slightly, thus keeping the average stack always around 100bbs. I think this would be a great structure for a tournament, and possibly better than the level repeat/skip idea.

Thoughts?

Four of a kind

thechamp87 wrote: »

This is something I have thought about before, but had a slightly different idea.

In my idea for a tournament, there is no clock, and I imagined having a tournament with c.100bbs effective stack for the whole tournament.

For this to work, the blinds change as x amount of players get knocked out, say for example, every 10 players that get knocked out, the blinds increase slightly, thus keeping the average stack always around 100bbs. I think this would be a great structure for a tournament, and possibly better than the level repeat/skip idea.

Thoughts?

Interesting as well. what happens though if it takes an extra long time to knock out say ten players as you said, do the blinds jump to keep with the 100bbs mark?
The idea is very good and would be interesting to see it used in a tournament to see how it fairs out.

JP Poker

thechamp87 wrote: »

This is something I have thought about before, but had a slightly different idea.

In my idea for a tournament, there is no clock, and I imagined having a tournament with c.100bbs effective stack for the whole tournament.

For this to work, the blinds change as x amount of players get knocked out, say for example, every 10 players that get knocked out, the blinds increase slightly, thus keeping the average stack always around 100bbs. I think this would be a great structure for a tournament, and possibly better than the level repeat/skip idea.

Thoughts?

Hi Adam,

I think 100bb's might be to much. I also think that you need some sort of pre-set clock as you could just seat there for hours on the 25-50 level before you lose 10 players for the blinds to go up.

thechamp87

Four of a kind wrote: »

Interesting as well. what happens though if it takes an extra long time to knock out say ten players as you said, do the blinds jump to keep with the 100bbs mark?
The idea is very good and would be interesting to see it used in a tournament to see how it fairs out.

It's irrelevant how long it takes each x amount of players to get eliminated, the blinds will increase to keep the average stack around the 100bbs mark, yes.

thechamp87

JP Poker wrote: »

Hi Adam,

I think 100bb's might be to much. I also think that you need some sort of pre-set clock as you could just seat there for hours on the 25-50 level before you lose 10 players for the blinds to go up.

Perhaps the 100bbs from for the duration would be excessive. With regards your point on the players sitting there for hours, this would not be a problem, 100bb stacks would lead to relatively quick exits - sure some players managed to get 1000bb in the first level of the deepstack.

JP Poker

thechamp87 wrote: »

Perhaps the 100bbs from for the duration would be excessive. With regards your point on the players sitting there for hours, this would not be a problem, 100bb stacks would lead to relatively quick exits - sure some players managed to get 1000bb in the first level of the deepstack.

Don't get me wrong I think it's a good idea.

My biggest problem with it is there is no clock at all. If I was to go away with the above structure and we got 100 players all starting with 5000 in chips.

We would need to lose 50 players before we could increase the blinds to 50-100

5starpool

thechamp87 wrote: »

Perhaps the 100bbs from for the duration would be excessive. With regards your point on the players sitting there for hours, this would not be a problem, 100bb stacks would lead to relatively quick exits - sure some players managed to get 1000bb in the first level of the deepstack.

Interesting idea. It would be hard though to estimate how long a tournie like this would go on for I'd imagine. You would have to have a range though for the aver age stack I would imagine, such as leave it at 100BB avg, but increase blinds when the avg stack gets to 125 BB's, but put the blinds up so that the avg stack goes to approx 75bbs, then rinse and repeat. The blind increments to keep it at near to 100bbs would be too small to work in a live tournie I'd imagine (unless you were to start and 100/200 and then go to 125/250 and so on every few eliminations).

I see this as too big a risk for a tournie organiser as you possibly underestimate the normal players desire to have consistent, deep stacked play. I think JPs one might be far more workable and palatable to normal punters.

cardrooms.ie

JP,

I think what you have come up with is a really great idea and would definately help prevent crap shoots.

Some of the problems I see with this is that I think it may be a dis-advantage to the chip leaders. Its slowing down play and giving the shorter stacks more time to sit and wait for that bigger starting hand before pushing. In my experience, most complaints about crapshoots comes from the short stack.

Another idea could be to go through more levels. Include a 250/500, 600/1200, 700,1400, 800,1600, 900,1800, 1000,2000, 1200,2400, 1400,2800, 1600,3200, 1800,3600, 2000,4000 and so on. These blinds and a 30+ min clock and no one could complain about a crapshoot.

Ollieboy

why do people not listen to me...lol

I mention this years ago..lol that structures should be based on blinds and not a clock, but this will disadvantage the big stacks as they can't force the play, but again it depends on there style of play. I think 30/40 might be too much, 25bb's would be ideal and should force the action still.

But interesting idea and would like to see it in operation. It will defineatly help the better players.

Doc Farrell

Ollieboy wrote: »

why do people not listen to me...lol

I mention this years ago..lol that structures should be based on blinds and not a clock, but this will disadvantage the big stacks as they can't force the play, but again it depends on there style of play. I think 30/40 might be too much, 25bb's would be ideal and should force the action still.

But interesting idea and would like to see it in operation. It will defineatly help the better players.

no you didn't Ollie. maybe once in passing in 06 but you made a hames of it.
if you put one on JP will you name the thread as such so i can read and attend it?

JP Poker

5starpool wrote: »

Interesting idea. It would be hard though to estimate how long a tournie like this would go on for I'd imagine. You would have to have a range though for the aver age stack I would imagine, such as leave it at 100BB avg, but increase blinds when the avg stack gets to 125 BB's, but put the blinds up so that the avg stack goes to approx 75bbs, then rinse and repeat. The blind increments to keep it at near to 100bbs would be too small to work in a live tournie I'd imagine (unless you were to start and 100/200 and then go to 125/250 and so on every few eliminations).

I see this as too big a risk for a tournie organiser as you possibly underestimate the normal players desire to have consistent, deep stacked play. I think JPs one might be far more workable and palatable to normal punters.

I think if we were to go with Adam idea the blinds would have to start higher.
Maybe even 500-1k with 100k starting stack and maybe include an increase ante every 30 mins or so to help force the action.

JP Poker

cardrooms.ie wrote: »

JP,

I think what you have come up with is a really great idea and would definately help prevent crap shoots.

Some of the problems I see with this is that I think it may be a dis-advantage to the chip leaders. Its slowing down play and giving the shorter stacks more time to sit and wait for that bigger starting hand before pushing. In my experience, most complaints about crapshoots comes from the short stack.

Another idea could be to go through more levels. Include a 250/500, 600/1200, 700,1400, 800,1600, 900,1800, 1000,2000, 1200,2400, 1400,2800, 1600,3200, 1800,3600, 2000,4000 and so on. These blinds and a 30+ min clock and no one could complain about a crapshoot.

While i haven't used all of these levels before i have used

125-250
175-350
250-500
350-700

And they did make a big difference. It was a 20 Min clock

akkenny

love how you keep coming up with new and better ideas to improve your tournaments jp, there is nothing worse than playing a a big tourney and getting down to the bubble of a tournament to just start shipping with 10-15 bb when the average is 15 bb also, the one thing i loved about kilarney was that the average i dont think ever went under 40bb, was so deep and you could get involved in big pots and loose and still have plenty of chips to play in relation to the blinds. i do like the idea of adding levels like 1200-2400, 2500-5000, 3500-7000 and other levels not seen yet. think this could be enough to keep the average above 30bb and might only have to repeat levels just once really late into a tourney.

Ollieboy

I've played many a tourney were the structure was fine and it end up crappy due to the players involved taken time on decision or just playing slow in general, I think the above structure would work well in a perfect game, but in general you will get the players trying to creep into the money just sitting back.

The current standardsstructure forces good and bad players to play a certain amount of hands over a certain time period. The bigger the event or buy-in the better the time. It also allows players to calculate when there time is running out to make moves. With the new structure that part and skill of the game will be taken away which is a bad thing as even playing short is a poker skill in its own right.

So after some thought I think its a bad idea. The best structure is a define structure that can be measured. Anyway tourneys go on for far to long as it is and we want to keep the fish in the game and not good players...lol

But positive ideas JP as always.

Slash/ED

I agree that the thing that ruins structures the most is slow players. When a tournament gets deep and you get through around ten hands in an hour because of idiots taking forever to make the most mundane decisions there's not really much a good structure can do.

digiman

thechamp87 wrote: »

This is something I have thought about before, but had a slightly different idea.

In my idea for a tournament, there is no clock, and I imagined having a tournament with c.100bbs effective stack for the whole tournament.

For this to work, the blinds change as x amount of players get knocked out, say for example, every 10 players that get knocked out, the blinds increase slightly, thus keeping the average stack always around 100bbs. I think this would be a great structure for a tournament, and possibly better than the level repeat/skip idea.

Thoughts?

I like this idea as well, I thought about this before and posted it a while back on boards. It would work great if it was online as it would be really easy to figure out and you could also have it really accurate but would be much more difficult to implement in a live tournament.

thechamp87

digiman wrote: »

I like this idea as well, I thought about this before and posted it a while back on boards. It would work great if it was online as it would be really easy to figure out and you could also have it really accurate but would be much more difficult to implement in a live tournament.

yeah obv much easier to do online.
and in order for it to work relatively well live, you'd prob need 100k starting stacks.
obv they don't need to keep it at exactly 100bbs, but a range of 80 to 120 would be grand.

KoolKid

+ 1 on your original post JP great Idea. The only thing is in your Pub games time is the main constriction

NuttKicker

this was a big problem with the moyvalley bruce poker tour when the blinds were about to go to 3k 6k the average stack was only 60k - 10BB so the level was replayed but it was still a problem later on when i was leaving the blinds were about to go 6-12k with average stack about 120k again only 10BB.it would be a great idea if you didn't let the average stack go below a certain number. different starting stacks and number of runners would affect this

JP Poker wrote: »

I think if we were to go with Adam idea the blinds would have to start higher.
Maybe even 500-1k with 100k starting stack and maybe include an increase ante every 30 mins or so to help force the action.

is a first level of 500-1k and 100k starting stack not the same as 50-100 and a 10k starting stack?

charlesanto

I like predefined blind structures.

It's part of the game, adjusting to short stack play as you need.

All this bollix about repeating levels to give the better players an edge is wrong.

Does the ability to play tight and take less risks (play less poker) make someone good ?

JP Poker

koolkid wrote: »

+ 1 on your original post JP great Idea. The only thing is in your Pub games time is the main constriction

I wouldn't be able to do this in any of my pub tournaments at time doesn't allow it. I'm talking about a bigger game, i.e monthly game.

JP Poker

NuttKicker wrote: »

this was a big problem with the moyvalley bruce poker tour when the blinds were about to go to 3k 6k the average stack was only 60k - 10BB so the level was replayed but it was still a problem later on when i was leaving the blinds were about to go 6-12k with average stack about 120k again only 10BB.it would be a great idea if you didn't let the average stack go below a certain number. different starting stacks and number of runners would affect this



is a first level of 500-1k and 100k starting stack not the same as 50-100 and a 10k starting stack?

It's still 100 BB's but you can increase the blinds easier if they start higher.

E.g.

100 Players with 10k starting chips
1st Level 50-100
Which means you need to lose be down to 67 players before you increase the blinds to 75-150

With a starting stack of 100k and blinds at 500-1000
You could increase the blinds to:

525-1050 at 95 Players
550-1100 at 91 Players
or
600-1200 at 83 Players

JP Poker

charlesanto wrote: »

I like predefined blind structures.

It's part of the game, adjusting to short stack play as you need.

All this bollix about repeating levels to give the better players an edge is wrong.

Does the ability to play tight and take less risks (play less poker) make someone good ?

This is not about making the game easier for tight players. I've seen games were the chip leader has had 15-20BB's.

It's about trying to make the game still playable at the later stages of the tournament when players are playing for big money. You will always have short stacks and big stacks no mather what structure you use.

LocustHunter

Hello all. The blind structures for most if not all t'ments are always debated. Personally when i fancy a game i always set aside the fact that the t'ment will run 4-5hrs. When we run our local game we usually divide the total chip count by a set blind ie 40 players multiplied by say 10,000 eqs 400,000 divide this by say 10x20Mins blinds, 25-50 50-100 100-200 150-300 200-400 (BREAK) 300-600 400-800 500-1000 800-1600 1000-2000. Blinds would then be capped until the final table has been reached. This would give players a final table total of 200BB. As ive said this structure suits all of us with as little if any gripe.

zsoulking

JP Poker wrote: »

Most of you who have played at any my events know I do my best to not allow my games turn into crapshoots as I often repeat levels and freeze the blinds.

I've been thinking about this alot and have come up with an idea.

You start the game as normal
10-15k Starting Chips
Blinds 25-50 at say 30 Mins

The blinds continue to increase as normal until the reach a certain range of Ave stack to BB's.

Say your range is 35-40 BB's

Your aim is to keep the tournament in this range until the end of the tournament.

If the Ave stack to BB's goes below 35 you repeat the level.

If the Ave stack to BB's goes above 40 you increase the blinds.

If the Ave stack to BB's is in between 35-40 the blinds increase every 30 Mins.

To ensure that the tournament doesn't run to long, the most your will rerun a level is say 3 times.

What do you think?

Mmmmm,

This looks very similar to the Monthly Game I've been telling people that I am going to run at the new club in Celbridge.

Slight difference though the structure is predefined.

For the game I've been talking about the tournament starts as normal 10,000 chips 30min clock.

For example 80 players start the tournament, when we get half way (40 Players) I stop the clock and reset the levels so that the average stack has 12 times the cost per round.

Then at the final table I will do the same.

From experience I know that the tournament will most likely run faster as players are more inclined to go busto if they get to see flops.

John

JP Poker

zsoulking wrote: »

Mmmmm,

This looks very similar to the Monthly Game I've been telling people that I am going to run at the new club in Celbridge.
Slight difference though the structure is predefined.

For the game I've been talking about the tournament starts as normal 10,000 chips 30min clock.

For example 80 players start the tournament, when we get half way (40 Players) I stop the clock and reset the levels so that the average stack has 12 times the cost per round.

Then at the final table I will do the same.

From experience I know that the tournament will most likely run faster as players are more inclined to go busto if they get to see flops.

John

I guess great minds think alike, you did mention to me about a new tournie at the Bruce Poker League final and said you had a realy cool name for it. That was as far as you went.

YULETIRED

I like your idea JP.
I have an idea for a Cashament JP. (have only given it some cursory thought :-)
What you have is every player buys in for 400, 200 cash and 200 is put towards the prize total After 3 hours of play, the top 2 from each table go on to the next round, this continues until you have a final table. The remaining players on each table can continue on with their cash game but they have no longer got any part to play in the tournament. It continues as a cash game for them if they wish, top up rebuy whatever, the tourny is over for them.
The players at the final table of the cashament have a cashout option, where they can take the money thev'e won so far from the tournament if they wish, however this will eliminate them from the tournament and the prize money which is derived from the 200 euros already allocated to this fund. It may be that some guy will have most of the money in play and so it won't be worth his while to play on, but fair enough it gives the rest a chance to win.
Blinds don't change for the whole of the tourny.

zsoulking

JP Poker wrote: »

I guess great minds think alike, you did mention to me about a new tournie at the Bruce Poker League final and said you had a realy cool name for it. That was as far as you went.

Yes you are right, I'm glad that people like the idea as I think it's a runner.
In the end for me it's all about getting to play a good game of poker if you bring this type of structure in to one of your events I'll book it off to play.
Disappointed that I am working right through the JP Masters would have loved to have played the main event.

John

spoofingjam

trial run at the masters imo

JP Poker

spoofingjam wrote: »

trial run at the masters imo

With 90 Min blinds I don't think the game will go below 35 BB's at any stage in the 1st place.:)

kennyrsb

sounds really good

gorrrr72

JP Poker wrote: »

This is not about making the game easier for tight players. I've seen games were the chip leader has had 15-20BB's.

It's about trying to make the game still playable at the later stages of the tournament when players are playing for big money. You will always have short stacks and big stacks no mather what structure you use.

I agree JP. Hold em is primarily a flop game. If you have to make all your big decisions preflop then it takes away a lot of skill from the game. Anybody can play a shortstack. Most players seem to want to play big pots preflop. That's a skill in itself but it does rely more on luck in the end.
By ensuring an average bb to player ratio it forces players to see flops and play poker. Mr tighty will still get into trouble as a good player will avoid him when he comes in with his big raise every 30 hands.

Goodluck2me

YULETIRED wrote: »

I like your idea JP.
I have an idea for a Cashament JP. (have only given it some cursory thought :-)
What you have is every player buys in for 400, 200 cash and 200 is put towards the prize total After 3 hours of play, the top 2 from each table go on to the next round, this continues until you have a final table. The remaining players on each table can continue on with their cash game but they have no longer got any part to play in the tournament. It continues as a cash game for them if they wish, top up rebuy whatever, the tourny is over for them.
The players at the final table of the cashament have a cashout option, where they can take the money thev'e won so far from the tournament if they wish, however this will eliminate them from the tournament and the prize money which is derived from the 200 euros already allocated to this fund. It may be that some guy will have most of the money in play and so it won't be worth his while to play on, but fair enough it gives the rest a chance to win.
Blinds don't change for the whole of the tourny.

I like the idea of this - its really inventive.


Couple of things I thought of were
tournament - blinds contantly going up like every 5 mins with really small increments, so there are no big jumps to watch out for, you simply keep going onwards and upwards.
So say 500-1K, 525-1050,550-1100 etc etc every 5 mins - so after 60 mins they have doubled but there is no big jump.

Cash
Online easier but live too - everyone starts each hand with 100BB, you must top up if you lose a few BB's and you also must go south for what you win and this continues until you want to leave.

Poker.inthe.Pub

nice idea but would it work on the average 30 to 40 players pub game when you have to be ot by 12:30pm ?

Coillte_Bhoy

Poker.inthe.Pub wrote: »

nice idea but would it work on the average 30 to 40 players pub game when you have to be ot by 12:30pm ?

12.30???:eek: Thnak god i run my pub tourneys out West!:)

JP-Christine

We will be implementing this idea at our next monthly game.

Sat 27th February in Molloys Pub, Tallaght, €150 Buyin

Full details can be found here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64530432#post64530432

Hope some of you don't mind being guinea pigs:)

The Clamper

JP Poker wrote: »

Most of you who have played at any my events know I do my best to not allow my games turn into crapshoots as I often repeat levels and freeze the blinds.

I've been thinking about this alot and have come up with an idea.

You start the game as normal
10-15k Starting Chips
Blinds 25-50 at say 30 Mins

The blinds continue to increase as normal until the reach a certain range of Ave stack to BB's.

Say your range is 35-40 BB's

Your aim is to keep the tournament in this range until the end of the tournament.

If the Ave stack to BB's goes below 35 you repeat the level.

If the Ave stack to BB's goes above 40 you increase the blinds.

If the Ave stack to BB's is in between 35-40 the blinds increase every 30 Mins.

To ensure that the tournament doesn't run to long, the most your will rerun a level is say 3 times.

What do you think?

JP
I think this is an innovative and brilliant idea, at least it shows that you are still thinking on your feet while trying to give the punters extra value and a great game

one thing
"Say your range is 35-40 BB's"
who are we speaking about here ? is this the average chip count ?
so by the time someone is at say the 300-600 level, the average should be what, say 24,000 or maybe just 20,000, then the Blind would be kept at that until you lose about 10 players
then move to 500-1000 to keep the average chip to blind ratio
going up again when another 10 drop, to 1000-2000 would probably keep it right

i can only imagine how players would look at this, with open arms if thats a correct term for how someone would look at something

I hope you dont mind me stealing this idea, but I will post a thread later on a tournament with this structure for maybe Sunday 28th Feb in The Westbury, i have to check dates later on and see if that clashes with other organisors 1st.

sounds like a great idea JP, maybe i will head on over to your 150 game and see how it pans out, in fact, put me down for that if you have any seats left please

Derek w

GrogoJones

Hopefully most tournament operaters will implement similiar
changes for their games.

trois bambino

top class idea and will definitely freshen up the format. you should patent it.

Westbury

well for 1 thing
I'M calling it the "NEW JP STRUCTURE"

Maddogg

i remember reading the original post and thinking its a great idea if you have time frame to do it.

you might even see me at your 150 game

Best of Luck with the NEW JP STRUCTURE

JP Poker

Just a quick reminder we are starting this on Saturday with our WSOP €5,000 Deepstack in Molloys, Tallaght.

JP Poker

Just one more day