Trocal Flat Roof-Fall 1:40 ??

paddy147

Trocal Flat Roof with a fall of 1:40

What does the above mean and especially the 1:40 part??

Thanks.

Kricket

Hi 147,
Trocal is roof membrane simalar to radon its about 3-4 mm in thickness and comes in 1.5m wide rolls is heat welded on roof there is also an vapour underlay used also, 1 in 40 is the fall of the roof ie it falls one foot in every 40

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

Hi 147,
Trocal is roof membrane simalar to radon its about 3-4 mm in thickness and comes in 1.5m wide rolls is heat welded on roof there is also an vapour underlay used also, 1 in 40 is the fall of the roof ie it falls one foot in every 40

Thanks for the help.:D

Would you know how good or reliable this trocal membrane is??

My architect said that the roof would be a trocal roof,and he did say something about flat roof.The new extension roof length would be 19 feet.So the fall of the roof would be barely 6 inches then,..... going by the 1 foot drop for every 40 feet.

Reason why I ask this question is that I have heard some bad things about flat roofs and leaking over time.

Kricket

Trocal is used mainly on factorys etc its very good ( expensive too )
i think its 30 year guarantee

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

Trocal is used mainly on factorys etc its very good ( expensive too )
i think its 30 year guarantee

Thats a relief.Dont weant or need a leaky flat roof.My mams house had a leaky flat roof in the kitchen extension and the insurance company tried every trick in the book to get out of paying up when my mam and dad went to claim.This was 15 years ago,so thats why I have this thing in my head ever since about flat roofs and them being bad.

Architect has also included a big roof light style window in the roof to allow more light into the kitchen area and give a better aspect of space and light.

Ive spent all yesterday and this morning with my girlfriend trying to get my head around the extension plans and the layout and Im just trying to picture/imagine the final outcome of the work that will be done.

Kricket

Why dont you put a pitched roof on and tunnel roof lights down if it was me i would avoid a flat roof . now is the time to do it right and wont cost to much more

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

Why dont you put a pitched roof on and tunnel roof lights down if it was me i would avoid a flat roof . now is the time to do it right and wont cost to much more

My planning application notice went up outside my house on Thursday, and the architect has submitted the plans to dublin city council on thursday aswell.

Can I change this trocal roof to to a sloped roof without re doing the plans and would it affect the planning permission?

The new extension roof would be just on 19 feet long,and there is a distance/fall of 22 inches ( allmost 2 feet) from the the underneath of the window ledge/sill above down to the the existing flat roof.Would this be enough to make a nice pitched roof,or what would be best?

Kricket

Think outside the box there is lots of different types of pitched roofs that would look good , ie take a hipped roof away from main building and yes you will have to resubmit for planning

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

Think outside the box there is lots of different types of pitched roofs that would look good , ie take a hipped roof away from main building and yes you will have to resubmit for planning

So If I wanted the builder to do a gradual sloped roof with a drop of say even 18 inches. So that would be a 19 foot long extension roof with a fall of 18 inches.So I would be only increasing the slope/fall from 6 inches to 18 inches really.

Do I have to re apply for planning permision and do up complete new plans just for that small alteration?

muffler

paddy147 wrote: »

So If I wanted the builder to do a gradual sloped roof with a drop of say even 18 inches. So that would be a 19 foot long extension roof with a fall of 18 inches.So I would be only increasing the slope/fall from 6 inches to 18 inches really.

What is the dimension in the other direction? ie. 19ft. x ??

paddy147 wrote: »

Do I have to re apply for planning permision and do up complete new plans just for that small alteration?

If you have a current application then revised drawings can be submitted as part of the same application.

Why did your architect specify a flat roof as opposed to a pitched roof?

paddy147

muffler wrote: »

What is the dimension in the other direction? ie. 19ft. x ??


If you have a current application then revised drawings can be submitted as part of the same application.

Why did your architect specify a flat roof as opposed to a pitched roof?

19 feet x 6.5 feet wide.

I am doing a 2 storey wrap around extension on the rear and side ) of the house.

But the roof area over the kitchen area is only 6.5 feet wide.This area is ground floor with no extension above it,to keep the neighbours and county council happy with regards neighbours light and angle of view.

My architect went for a wrap around style as my house is end of terrace and also to keep the 2 storey extension away from the neighbours house and not to affect their light of view.

I dont really know why he decided on a flat roof qith the 1:40 aspect.

He did originally mention something about angles/slopes and not being able to put up roof tiles as they wouldnt work propperly,but I never picked up on that bit as the girlfriend got talking about over all interior space and living size.

He did up plans originally which showed a nice sloped roof comming down from just under the bedroom window sill above the existing kitchen flat roof,but now on the final plans its classed as a Trocal roof of 1:40

How hard would it be to change this to a sloped/pitched roof with regards the plans allready submitted to dublin city council??

Does a 19 foot long by 6.5 foot wide roof with a slope/fall of 18 or 20 inches sound easy????

My girlfriend and myself love the idea of using all the sloped ceiling height to make a more spacious kitchen/dinning room area.

Kricket

Hi 147
I don't think planning is required is the flat roof at rear of building

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

Hi 147
I don't think planning is required is the flat roof at rear of building

Yes,the existing small kitchen extension flat roof is on the rear of the house and its a completely flat. roof
What do you rekon with regards the planning aspect then??

Kricket

on the back of building you dont need planning to a certain size at a guess i think its 240 sq ft open to correction:rolleyes:

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

on the back of building you dont need planning to a certain size at a guess i think its 240 sq ft open to correction:rolleyes:

I hope that you may have just made my day.:D

Thanks for the help and advice btw.

muffler

Im just wondering why it cant be sloped in the short span direction - 6.5 ft.?

No big deal in changing the plans from a flat roof to a pitched roof providing you move fairly quickly on it whil it is still being processed by the council. if you do decide to change to a pitched roof it would be of great benefit to your application when submitting the revised plans to geta letter from your neighbour confirming they have no objection to the revised roof detail and get them to sign a copy of the plan also. This then shows the planners that the neighbours are happy enough with your proposal.

Dont get too exited about not needing planning. As they say a "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" Once your extension goes around the side of the house you need permission.

There is provision for building to the rear of the house only without having to get permission (exempt development) but it is subject to certain conditions and the details can be read here

mickdw

Trocal is an expensive material and it is pretty tough but I still wouldnt use it. It is very possible to damage it and cause a leak.

paddy147

muffler wrote: »

Im just wondering why it cant be sloped in the short span direction - 6.5 ft.?

No big deal in changing the plans from a flat roof to a pitched roof providing you move fairly quickly on it whil it is still being processed by the council. if you do decide to change to a pitched roof it would be of great benefit to your application when submitting the revised plans to geta letter from your neighbour confirming they have no objection to the revised roof detail and get them to sign a copy of the plan also. This then shows the planners that the neighbours are happy enough with your proposal.

Dont get too exited about not needing planning. As they say a "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" Once your extension goes around the side of the house you need permission.

There is provision for building to the rear of the house only without having to get permission (exempt development) but it is subject to certain conditions and the details can be read here

I do need full planning permission for the overall extension.I knew that from the word go as the total extension is allmsot 60 square meters in total.

We had inital plans drawn up by the architect with a pitch roof sloping in the 6.5 foot wide direction.

But it didnt look right and it didnt suit the overall extension and look of the back of the house.

Then the architect changed the slope around to run the 19 foot length of the proposed new kitchen roof.

I was in the back garden and I did up a mock up of the slope with some bamboo canes and twine.

A 22 inch slope/fall off on a 19 feet long roof would be a very gradual slope from the existing back wall of the house/bedroom window sill down to the end of the 19 foot extension roof..

Would really even be a pitched roof,or would it??

Wonder what would be best way to cover the roof with a slope like that,propper roof tiles or something else?

Please forgive my lack of knowladge,as Im a newbie to this sort of thing.

sydthebeat

i would have no problem specifying trocal puc as a flat roof finish.. i find it a far superior to the asphalt and bitumen felt products commonly used...

paddy147

What colour is this trocal material?

Or can it be got in different colours to suit the house and its roof/tile colour?

Builderfromhell

Unless I can completely avoid it all my flat roofs are profile steel at an angle of about 15 degrees. They typically extend the full lenght of the roof so there are no horizontal joints. As the slope is more than a typical flat roof water penetration is very unlikely. Never had leaks. Ventilation is very imporatnt to stop condensation. I can easily get loads of insulation in void. Roof is up in a day.

I'm not hustling for work here. Too busy frankly.

paddy147

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Unless I can completely avoid it all my flat roofs are profile steel at an angle of about 15 degrees. They typically extend the full lenght of the roof so there are no horizontal joints. As the slope is more than a typical flat roof water penetration is very unlikely. Never had leaks. Ventilation is very imporatnt to stop condensation. I can easily get loads of insulation in void. Roof is up in a day.

I'm not hustling for work here. Too busy frankly.

Could you or anyone tell me what angle of slope my roof would be then if its a 19 foot long roof with a drop of 22 inches from just under the 1st floor window sill/ledge above the current flat roof extension.

What approx angle would that equate to?

Thanks.

muffler

paddy147 wrote: »

Could you or anyone tell me what angle of slope my roof would be then if its a 19 foot long roof with a drop of 22 inches from just under the 1st floor window sill/ledge above the current flat roof extension.

What approx angle would that equate to?

Thanks.

that would be a little under 9 degrees

Kricket

Why are you fixated with under the window cill , why dont you bring your rafters from the middle/ top or over the window and dress each side of window with lead, like a mansard roof and they look fine then you would get any pitch you want and can use slate / tile whatever.

Think outside the box.

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

Why are you fixated with under the window cill , why dont you bring your rafters from the middle/ top or over the window and dress each side of window with lead, like a mansard roof and they look fine then you would get any pitch you want and can use slate / tile whatever.

Think outside the box.

So what you mean is the roof/roof tiles goes up either side of the window and then theres a gap/recess for the window itself?
Is that right?

I actually saw an extension on the side of a house done like that today,and it actually looked allright.

paddy147

Like this?

Kricket

That image is exactly what in on about it allows you to use tiles or slates
in my mind trocal or box profile sheeting ar for industrial buildings & in today's climate flat roofs are to be avoided where possible.


Think outside the box

paddy147

Kricket wrote: »

That image is exactly what in on about it allows you to use tiles or slates
in my mind trocal or box profile sheeting ar for industrial buildings & in today's climate flat roofs are to be avoided where possible.


Think outside the box

Thanks mate,you are very helpfull.:D

My missus has just emailed the architect that photo and asked for the roof to be redesigned similar to the roof in the pic and I have just spoken to him on the phone,so we will see what happens.

sydthebeat

Kricket wrote: »

That image is exactly what in on about it allows you to use tiles or slates
in my mind trocal or box profile sheeting ar for industrial buildings & in today's climate flat roofs are to be avoided where possible.


Think outside the box

i would disagree.

the standard of flat roof construction has improved immeasurably in the last 20 years. Roof finishing membranes are now a lot more robust that the types that caused problems in the past.

This can be quite easily seen by the number of flat roof 'box' type dwellings constructed recently.

although for a small domestic extension, if slate or tiles can be used, its probably better as theres a lot more 'messy' cutting in work...

sydthebeat

paddy147 wrote: »

Like this?

thats a messy construction.

you still will have a significant 'flat roof' section in front of the window that needs to be covered. Using lead over that area is dodgy if not done correctly. Also you are creating a recess where leaves dirt etc will gather, which happens to be out side a window.

i would still think a continuous homogeneous construction is a better option. It would also look way better as well.

Kricket

(1) flat roofs are not a life time job
(2) needs maintenance
(3) unsightly
(4)not finished looking
(5) messy cutting in work what is that about
when you look up at a finished job you wont say it was messy in construction you will say is that a flat roof
lead work dodgy if not done correctly what other way
same can be said for flat roof which has dozens of long flat joints which all can and will leak in time all this is from experiance not from a text book
as for dirt collecting outside a window 3' x 2'
where do you think the dirt will be on flat roof

Think outside the box

sydthebeat

Kricket wrote: »

(1) flat roofs are not a life time job
(2) needs maintenance
(3) unsightly
(4)not finished looking
(5) messy cutting in work what is that about
when you look up at a finished job you wont say it was messy in construction you will say is that a flat roof
lead work dodgy if not done correctly what other way
same can be said for flat roof which has dozens of long flat joints which all can and will leak in time all this is from experiance not from a text book
as for dirt collecting outside a window 3' x 2'
where do you think the dirt will be on flat roof

Think outside the box

(1) how old do you think buildings such as The Four Courts, or The mansion house are??.. .yes thats right over 200 years old.. both of which have flat roof areas. Flat roof membranes have no different life spans than other roofing materials as tested in accordance with BS 7543:1992 Guide to the durability of building elements, products and components.

(2) there is NO such things a no maintenance. Homogeneous constructions tend to be a lot less maintenance that multi faceted constructions such as the picture supplied.

(3) Relative. Personally, the idea of a chunk of a pitched roof being removed for a window as being completely unsightly.

(4) i do not understand why or how you would have this opinion? i have designed many flat roofed buildings and none looked 'unfinished' when completed, obviously.

(5) refer to 2 above. Continuous modular construction tends to be a lot less problematic than patchy haphazard work.

as for dirt and leaves collecting... a flat roof has a smooth flat surface for wind to blow over, removing a lot of debris material... an eroded form like the picture creates wind vortex which focuses air bourn debris into it... but again, theres no such thing as no maintenance. A flat roof has very easy maintenance.

Think about a box!!

Kricket

Just as i suspected your quoting from a text book and the frighting thing is you actually believe what you are saying .
flat roof membrane average life 20 years
tiles and slates 100 to 200
how many times do you think the flat roofs on the four courts were changed or do you think its still origional ha ha .
as for the rest of your answers waffle waffle
one good thing though with your thinking there is always going to be work for chippies down the road
point no 5 is stupid.
look at most costal hotels/resorts,
good planning isnt a flat roof.

Think outside the box

Poor Uncle Tom

Up until very recently, say 15 years ago, flat roof construction (no such thing actually, all roofs have some fall) was considered to be a last resort mainly because of the materials used to dress the surface, mineral felts, torch on, asphalt, up side down roofs, zinc or lead. All the finishing materials had their own flaws, uv rays, expansion/contraction, heat/cold, rain/frost and usually a mixture of all the above lead to the early breaching of the roofing surface, fail as we would say today.

Pitched roofs also had their faults, large very heavy concrete tiles, faded slipping and cupping slates. Because the materials used on pitched roofs didn't fail as fast as the others they were the preferred option, but by no means maintanance free.

Anyway the amount of different materials out there now means we can design and build any shape of roof surface, flat, pitched, gull winged, curved, convex, concave, undulating or even lawn surface. The big difference between 20 years ago and today, with the designers anyway, is that we know nothing is forever and nothing is maintanance free. Once that concept is grasped and swallowed the possibilities are limitless.

Regarding the design on the picture, what would you call the roof area at the window cill except 'flat' and this will need to be dealt with the same as if the whole roof was of the same material. The roof will only last up to the point the first element gives way. Mt guess is that the first element to give way in that picture would be the flat roof part.....!

Why not consider playing around with a new window shape coming out over the 'flat' or 'sloped roof'. Anyway, as I said it is only my two cents, please don't fall out over it.


I Like Boxes

Kricket

Hi Poor Uncle Tom ,
To refresh this thread i was answering paddy 147 about practical roof surfaces to use on back of domestic dwelling when pompus gett threw in his oar about listed buildings in dublin and waffled on until i lost the rag
in these times of 'recession' would you not think we poor workers should pull together , only a thought

Think outside the box.

sydthebeat

Kricket wrote: »

Hi Poor Uncle Tom ,
To refresh this thread i was answering paddy 147 about practical roof surfaces to use on back of domestic dwelling when pompus gett threw in his oar about listed buildings in dublin and waffled on until i lost the rag
in these times of 'recession' would you not think we poor workers should pull together , only a thought

Think outside the box.

your opinions are valid to you, but they are 'old hat'... you seem to be stuck in the middle of our last recession...1985.

i have explained how roof membrane technology has come a long way since torch on felt.. but you seem to be unable to see beyond a basic tile / slate solution.

.... how long do you think roofing felt lasts???.... 100-200 years??..

as to whether im pompous or not... you could be on to something there...

im offering my opinion, based on experience, to the OP... as you are.

He / she is free tor take any advice they want.

Kricket

OK im from old hat , but u must agree its a domestic dwelling were on about , you dont see a donkey with with a v 8 , no just a nose bag, lets not get ahead of ourselves, sorry for pompus remark sid i said i would not get personal regards, J


Think outside the box

muffler

Kricket wrote: »

OK im from old hat , but u must agree its a domestic dwelling were on about , you dont see a donkey with with a v 8 , no just a nose bag, lets not get ahead of ourselves, sorry for pompus remark sid i said i would not get personal regards, J


Think outside the box

Just as well you apologised or you would have been looking in here from outside of the box.

personal abuse wont be tolerated in this forum.

Kricket

Muffler this is your second time I was not abusive what are u at

Think outside the box

muffler

Kricket wrote: »

Muffler this is your second time I was not abusive what are u at

Think outside the box

My second time??? What do you mean?

Kricket

Did i get reppremanded already

muffler

Kricket wrote: »

Muffler this is your second time I was not abusive what are u at

Think outside the box

Kricket wrote: »

Did i get reppremanded already

I ask you again - this is my second time at doing what?

Kricket

did i get an infraction and a warning or not

Think outside the box

muffler

Kricket wrote: »

did i get an infraction and a warning or not

Think outside the box

Do not drag this thread off topic. I thought you were alluding to something else.

if you have any problems with the moderation here then you may either PM me or any of the mods but please dont bring up matters here that happened in a different thread.

Poor Uncle Tom

Easy Kricket,
please remember we are all just offering our own opinions here, all have a very valid base. remember, think outside that box.:)

paddy147

WOW.............................I go off for a day to dig out a back garden and I come back to find this.
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FUNNY


P.S-Thanks Krickit,you have been very helpfull to me.Appreciate it.

Kricket

Paddy 147 you made my day i'm very practical in my answers
thanks for your vote of confidene excuse me spelling i was out all day on the piss can only see keyboard with one eye ps poor uncle tom helped me he seems to be a mindfield of information .

think outside the box