what religion/stance am i????

DessieOH

just a quick question....


"Atheism is belief that there is no god" << Common Public Definition of Atheism

But....

Its quite hard to explain ... i am a nonbeliever, not an atheist.

• Atheist = Believe that there is no god
• Nonbeliever = Do not believe in god << Thats me... there is quite a difference

And i am not agnostic... I fear that the common misconception of that says i am kinda 50:50 theist and atheist...

So... can anyone define my stance in 1/2 words??
(im basically looking for a Synonym for "nonbeliever")


I will really appreciate this...

liah

TECHNICALLY an atheist is just not a theist, meaning they don't subscribe to religion. Some may even be spiritual.

I don't see a difference between "atheist believes there is no god" and "i don't believe in a god" other than pure semantics, really..

Sounds more like you're just afraid of the word atheist.

Zillah

DessieOH wrote: »

Atheist = Believe that there is no god

Nonbeliever = Do not believe in god

No not really. If anyone says "No" when asked "Do you believe in God?" then they're an atheist.

<< Thats me... there is quite a difference

I see no difference whatsoever. Could you explain it to me? Sounds like you want to say theists are wrong without actually saying they're wrong. Give in to it, it's remarkably satisfying.

DessieOH

ok... well liah kinda cleared up the technical definition of atheist...

basically..

a common definition of atheist is "one who believes there is no god"

My main objection with this is that i would be (by common definition) "believing" in something.... which in reality i cannot do ... however i find the concept of god ridiculous and hence do not believe in it...

Do you get what i am saying....

kiffer

OP: maybe you are an Implicit Atheist?
"the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it"

sink

DessieOH wrote: »

just a quick question....


"Atheism is belief that there is no god" << Common Public Definition of Atheism

But....

Its quite hard to explain ... i am a nonbeliever, not an atheist.

• Atheist = Believe that there is no god
• Nonbeliever = Do not believe in god << Thats me... there is quite a difference

And i am not agnostic... I fear that the common misconception of that says i am kinda 50:50 theist and atheist...

So... can anyone define my stance in 1/2 words??
(im basically looking for a Synonym for "nonbeliever")


I will really appreciate this...

You're an atheist. Maybe you don't like the label atheist due to perceived negative connotations of the word 'atheist', but you should realise that any negative connotations are entirely affixed by religious believers e.g. dogmatic, militant, fundamentalist. Atheists are a very broad group of people just as theists are and we all have different opinions on god and religion.

Zillah

DessieOH wrote: »

My main objection with this is that i would be (by common definition) "believing" in something.... which in reality i cannot do ... however i find the concept of god ridiculous and hence do not believe in it...

Do you get what i am saying....

Yes, totally. I for one refuse to commit to believing that gravity exists, and I do not have a belief that vampires are myths. While I do not believe in vampires, I do not have a belief that vampires do not exist.*

Your problem is that you've been duped into thinking that the God claim is in anyway special when compared to all the other nonsensical things people claim are real. Nonsensical things I'm sure you'd have far less reservations about dismissing in the way I do God.

*What?

DessieOH

"An implicit atheist has given little or no consideration regarding the existence of deities" i think an implicit atheist is often used to describe atheist children or people who havent pondered the existance of god...


So if i can clear this up ... i am still an atheist even if i dont "believe there is no god" yet i do not do not believe in any god...


To use the vampires....

Avampirist= one who believes there is no vampires
Yet i cannot commit myself to saying somthing like that so rather i would
say i am "one who does not believe in vampires". It releases that commitment.
i think its easier to understand if you replace the word belief with faith.



You may think this is just a picky choice of words but just if anyone can put this in words???

kiffer

It's pretty straight forward. If you don't beleive in God you are an atheist.
The whole "I don't believe in God" vs "I believe there is no God" thing is largely unimportant except to theists who want to make it look like your taking a Faith position on the issue. Or so it seems sometimes.

bnt

First, let me clear something up: a common misconception about Agnosticism is that it means "I don't know if there is a God". This is incorrect, since according to the inventor of the word (T.H. Huxley), it means that the question is unanswerable i.e. "I can't know if there is a God". Wikipedia has it right, even the Catholic Encyclopaedia has it right, and I don't get why this misconception persists. I guess it's down to people not wanting to call themselves atheists, even when it is the right word for what they think. "Agnostic" sounds "nicer", eh?

So, you don't believe in "God" or gods, but you're not prepared to claim that there are no gods out there somewhere. You don't know whether there is or not, but that doesn't help you pick a label, since no-one knows the answer, do they? Some claim to know, but you're not one of them ... I've heard your position termed "weak atheism", and it is by far the most common position among atheists today.

It is rare these days to find someone who claims to know the answer to the question (of the existence of gods), and really thinks "there are definitely no gods". That is well-known as a logical fallacy. Here's why: to categorically state that something can not or does not exist, at any time, is to claim knowledge about everything, everywhere, at every time, past and future. Or, as some say, "absence of proof is not proof of absence". (Yet you still see theists today trotting this fallacy out, and thinking that they've somehow "broken" atheism: sorry, we're way ahead of you on this one. )

So, where did this "atheists believe there is no God" definition come from? Well, some atheists in the past did say that, I suppose - I could not logically claim that no-one ever did that! The other sources are clergy (i.e. biased sources) dictionaries, almanacs, encyclopaedias, all the places where common folk went to get information. Who do you think wrote those definitions: actual atheists? Dictionaries and encyclopaedias are not set in stone: they can be wrong, and they can be fixed.

Even the Catholic Encyclopaedia, where you would expect to find a dogmatic opposition to atheism, seriously doubts the "atheists believe there are no gods" claim:

The most trenchant form which atheism could take would be the positive and dogmatic denial existence of any spiritual and extra-mundane First Cause. This is sometimes known as dogmatic, or positive theoretic, atheism; though it may be doubted whether such a system has ever been, or could ever possibly be seriously maintained. Certainly Bacon and Dr. Arnold voice the common judgment of thinking men when they express a doubt as to the existence of an atheist belonging to such a school.

...

A second form in which atheism may be held and taught, as indeed it has been, is based either upon the lack of physical data for theism or upon the limited nature of the intelligence of man. This second form may be described as a negative theoretic atheism; and may be furthur viewed as cosmological or psychological, according as it is motived, on the one hand, by a consideration of the paucity of actual data available for the arguments proving the existence of a super-sensible and spiritual God, or, what amounts to the same thing, the attributing of all cosmic change and development to the self-contained potentialities of an eternal matter; or, on the other hand, by an empiric or theoretic estimate of the powers of reason working upon the data furnished by sense-perception.

So, whenever you hear "atheists are certain there are no gods", you can dismiss that as ignorance of the details as understood today, or deliberate misrepresentation with an agenda behind it. Pick any atheist writer today - Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Myers, whoever - and try and find somewhere where they have said such a thing. Dawkins actually makes a point of rating himself as a 6 on a scale of 7, where a 7 would be that kind of "dogmatic atheism" he is sometimes accused of.

Me, I just ignore it, just as I ignore anyone who still thinks it's witty to use religious terminology to describe the non-religious. You know, "acolytes of Atheist High Priest Dawkins" or other claptrap. It's old and boring, it's not smart and it's not funny, so you may as well drop it. :rolleyes:

Overblood

DessieOH wrote: »

just a quick question....


"Atheism is belief that there is no god" << Common Public Definition of Atheism

But....

Its quite hard to explain ... i am a nonbeliever, not an atheist.

• Atheist = Believe that there is no god
• Nonbeliever = Do not believe in god << Thats me... there is quite a difference

And i am not agnostic... I fear that the common misconception of that says i am kinda 50:50 theist and atheist...

So... can anyone define my stance in 1/2 words??
(im basically looking for a Synonym for "nonbeliever")


I will really appreciate this...

You are an atheist.

By the way, your definition of atheist is slightly incorrect. Atheists do not "believe" that there is no god. An atheist simply lacks belief in god. If I were to classify myself by your definition then I would have to call myself a believer. I am a non-believer. Get my drift? It's quite pedantic I know, but it gets on my nerves when somebody's debating against an atheist and starts a sentence with "SO YOU BELIEVE that there is no god".

kiffer

Theists don't believe there isn't a God...

philologos

kiffer wrote: »

Theists don't believe there isn't a God...

Double negative = positive

Theists don't believe there isn't a God

Looks so much easier this way

Mind you theists believe there is a personal God. Deists believe that God is not a personal God. It's an important distinction. Deists are atheists also, even though they believe in a God according to a discussion I had with pH a while ago.

jaffa20

Omg my head hurts.

Although i do see where the op is coming from.

I don't see why there has to be a name for everything. Each person may subscribe to their own personal belief.

This i can see true is christianity too as not all christians share common beliefs and interpret the bible how they see it. A quote can be read in so many different ways by each individual. Only the source of that quote truly understands what it means.

kiffer

Jakkass wrote: »

Double negative = positive

Theists don't believe there isn't a God

Looks so much easier this way

Yup that was part of why I said it... But if every time you said, "I believe in God" some wit said "ah you just don't believe there isn't a God" it would start to grate on you after a while maybe...
We could choose to make distinction there if we really want.

Mind you theists believe there is a personal God. Deists believe that God is not a personal God. It's an important distinction. Deists are atheists also, even though they believe in a God according to a discussion I had with pH a while ago.

That would be an eccuminical matter!

Zillah

DessieOH wrote: »

Avampirist= one who believes there is no vampires
Yet i cannot commit myself to saying somthing like that so rather i would
say i am "one who does not believe in vampires". It releases that commitment.

There is no difference between these things.

i think its easier to understand if you replace the word belief with faith.

I think this is the real source of your confusion. Belief and faith are extremely different things, that's why they have different words.

Faith: Belief in the absence of/or contrary to evidence. Or to put it in terms theists may prefer; Belief based on personal/subjective experience rather than objective.

Belief: Can be reasoned ("I believe in gravity because it is experimentally demonstrable" or "I do not believe vampires exist due to lack of evidence and the historical origins of the myth") or they can be irrational ("I'm superman!" or "Sentient super beings constantly interfere in the workings of my life")

Faith is a type of belief. It is not the same thing as belief. I have many beliefs, I have no faith. I believe there is no God, this does not mean I have faith that there is no God.

stevejazzx

Anti-theist. Lock it up!

Orion

liah wrote: »

TECHNICALLY an atheist is just not a theist, meaning they don't subscribe to religion. Some may even be spiritual.

I don't see a difference between "atheist believes there is no god" and "i don't believe in a god" other than pure semantics, really..

Sounds more like you're just afraid of the word atheist.

DessieOH wrote: »

ok... well liah kinda cleared up the technical definition of atheist...

But liah is wrong. Spirituality and religion are totally separate. They may be linked if you are both but they are distinct from each other. And you cannot simplify atheism to just be lack of theism. There are many different kinds of atheism just as there are many different religions. Implicit/Explicit, strong/weak, militant/passive, etc.

jaffa20 wrote: »

I don't see why there has to be a name for everything. Each person may subscribe to their own personal belief.

Or non-belief But joking aside I fully agree with this sentiment.

DessieOH

thanks everybody....

well i suppose i could always use atheist ... and if faced with the argument that i am myself commiting faith that there is no god i could simply define my atheism as a lack of belief rather that a belief in no god...

sound plasuable enough???

Dinner

DessieOH wrote: »

thanks everybody....

well i suppose i could always use atheist ... and if faced with the argument that i am myself commiting faith that there is no god i could simply define my atheism as a lack of belief rather that a belief in no god...

Thats what all atheism is. It's just splitting hairs to say that there's a difference.

DessieOH

yeah.... however theologians love splitting hairs on stuff like this..

so is it perfectly acceptable to define my atheism as this???
(or is this the actual definition of atheism?)

liah

Macros42 wrote: »

But liah is wrong. Spirituality and religion are totally separate. They may be linked if you are both but they are distinct from each other.

How am I wrong if what you just said to prove me wrong is exactly what I said in the first place?

I said that some atheists may even be spiritual, because atheism at its basic definition is solely the lack of subscribing to a religion. A-theism. Not-theistic. Theism is solely the following of a religion. This does involve (a) god(s), souls, spirits, angels, demons, etc. as a rule, but those traits alone a religion does not make. Still, atheists could, theoretically, believe in souls, or spirits, or ghosts, etc. Most obviously don't, but the definition is open-ended enough to allow.

Zillah

DessieOH wrote: »

thanks everybody....

well i suppose i could always use atheist ... and if faced with the argument that i am myself commiting faith that there is no god i could simply define my atheism as a lack of belief rather that a belief in no god...

sound plasuable enough???

Have I mastered the art of invisible posting or something? I explain at the top of this very page why faith and belief are entirely different things. That should be your response to someone who tries to conflate them.