On the dole

Blue_Wolf

Was listening to the radio yesterday on the way home from work.

Someone suggested that people who are the dole should be doing charity work or volunatary work for their community. (cleaning up etc etc)

What do you think about this idea?

I personally think it should be mandatory for those who have been on the dole/unemployed for 2 years or more.
Nobody likes to sit at home doing nothing so I would assume some people would be happy to give 2 days of work to keep themselves occupied and to get a bit of fulfillment.

Blue_Wolf

Blue_Wolf wrote: »

Was listening to the radio yesterday on the way home from work.

Someone suggested that people who are the dole should be doing charity work or volunatary work for their community. (cleaning up etc etc)

What do you think about this idea?

I personally think it should be mandatory for those who have been on the dole/unemployed for 2 years or more.
Nobody likes to sit at home doing nothing so I would assume some people would be happy to give 2 days of work to keep themselves occupied and to get a bit of fulfillment.

I'm on Jobseekers benefit, so technically I'm getting back the heaps of taxes I paid for the previous 13 years while working.

I think there is a major degree of mass-grouping people who are currently on the dole. That all are there to take from the system, without ever giving back. Hence the references to charity or voluntary work... (which wouldn't be voluntary if people are forced into it)

The thing is that there are thousands of people who have signed up for welfare for the first time in their lives. They've worked for years or decades, without receiving any welfare benefits of any kind, and now are forced to seek help from the system. (This is the first time I've received any benefit to paying taxes. My college expenses I had to pay for, just as all my medical expenses had to be paid by me) Any person who faces this situation, would much prefer to get paid work..

I agree with you that people who have been on the dole for longer than a certain period, should be given mandatory work. It sounds logical. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any work. I went down to my local Fas office, and asked for work while i was on the dole. They had nothing for me. In fact they had nothing for anyone, except people without any formal education. Apparently they have a higher priority for work than educated people.

I'd suggest a mandatory work placement for anyone on the dole longer than a year. Perfectly reasonable. Equal placement on road schemes, infrastructure development, etc. teach us more skills, and pay us our welfare amounts. Awesome.

Blue_Wolf

Ya wasn't referring to people like yourself have paid tax for the last 13years. Those who haven't worked at all and are happy to stay on the dole.

I was just thinking that they could increase the dole allowance on the basis that they are doing community work etc. Someone like yourself would be happy as you are getting more money and you are doing something meaningful.

How to justify for the increase in allowance? Well the government would be saving money as they wouldnt have to pay John or Mary 13euro an hour to clean up the street or take care of someone. Just idea.

irish_bob

i think it would be a great idea if the unemployed - long terms especially spent some of thier time picking up litter off our filthy streets and roads etc

i often do in around the roads where i live in the countryside , always feel good afterwards , we have a beautifull country , a pity were are such a dirty nation , im sure it would boost tourism and the countrys immage no end were the litter to be picked up on a daily basis

irish_bob

irish_bob wrote: »

i think it would be a great idea if the unemployed - long terms especially spent some of thier time picking up litter off our filthy streets and roads etc

i often do in around the roads where i live in the countryside , always feel good afterwards , we have a beautifull country , a pity were are such a dirty nation , im sure it would boost tourism and the countrys immage no end were the litter to be picked up on a daily basis

I loved the early mornings in China. You would see thousands of men and women come out in orange uniforms, and clean the streets completely. Every morning afterward's, the streets were pristine. But that was just the cities though, but i suppose Xi'an could do a lot with over 2 million migrant workers to play with.

ParkRunner

Blue_Wolf wrote: »

Nobody likes to sit at home doing nothing so I would assume some people would be happy to give 2 days of work to keep themselves occupied and to get a bit of fulfillment.

I agree with you that there should be an obligation on those who are long-term unemployed to at least contribute something to society by becoming involved in community projects or doing a training course and developing their own skills in the hope of eventually securing a job.

On my walk to work though there isn't a day that goes by where I don't see a person dressed in their pyjamas, child in hand, rearing the next generation of long term unemployed.

I believe many of the long term unemployed don't fully appreciate where their money actually comes from as from my own short term experience on the dole it was good money being paid right into my bank account every week.

I was glad to see that you at least have to go and collect the dole personally now, which might encourage some people to at least get dressed.

The option should definitely be there for those who want to contribute to society to do so and Im sure if they really wanted to go and clean the streets no one would stop them, but without a real threat of reducing or cutting some people's dole completely I can't see a spark of self-motivation from many who are long term unemployed.

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

They had nothing for me. In fact they had nothing for anyone, except people without any formal education. Apparently they have a higher priority for work than educated people.

Surely they could offer people like you the same unskilled work as a stop gap. I mean, it would be better to do some manual labour for 6 months and earn a full wage than to be on the dole for the same time, and it should also make no difference to the employer whether you have no education or a PhD. The idea that you should be considered low priority because you are well educated is just another example of the inefficient pseudo-socialist public sector we have.

Coriolanus

You need to make the distinction between jobseekers and the long term unemployed and the unemployable.
The first group will take care of themselves hopefully, in due time and re join the work force happily and willingly.
The final group is smaller than most people realise. Physical disability doesn't discount office/clerk work etc.

It's the middle group that ought to be doing something and to the poster who says there's not much work, I don't think the OP was talking about paying jobs really. At least I'd have in mind clean up of roadways etc.

I'm in the States currently and every major road you drive on there are periodic plastic bags full of trash that disparate groups have picked up. County services just scoop up the bags and away they go. Now, this is apparently done by a combination of charities, school groups, community service and remanded felons. Something like that here might lend a shine to the countryside again.

O'Coonassa

Yes, treat the unemployed like remanded felons, that'll learn 'em...:pac:

Coriolanus

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Yes, treat the unemployed like remanded felons, that'll learn 'em...:pac:

Charities and schools do it too, as I wrote. They sponsor a section of highway and go out weekly/fortnightly apparently.

And I am talking about people who aren't jobseekers or somehow precluded from working by disability etc.

As in, the 99% of the occupants of the boardwalks and greenspaces of most of Dublin. (admit it, it'd funny as !@#$ watching the Garda equine boys trying to herd junkies along the M50... )

O'Coonassa

Nevore wrote: »

Charities and schools do it too, as I wrote. They sponsor a section of highway and go out weekly/fortnightly apparently.

Yes but there's a world of a difference between doing something voluntarily and being forced to do it. I assumed charities and schools volunteer.

Coriolanus

*Shrug* Life isn't fair. If someone -chooses- not to work, before retirement, for a long period of time when they're physically and mentally able to (not possessed of two broken legs, not clinically depressed, not <fillintheblank> they yeah, I figure they owe something to the State that hands them their cheque every week.

Like I said, I'm not talking about the fella laid off and who's trying to get any job he can get his hands on etc.

If it's the civil liberties issue that's bothering you, well, modify the current benefits system to include food vouchers etc. If x doesn't feel like helping making the state a nicer place for everyone, well, by all means the state will discharge it's responsibility and ensure you're fed and housed. If x feels likes exerting himself, he gets the regular payment instead.

jimmycrackcorm

I'm in favour of the long term unemployed being penalised with lower welfare benefits but also with increased training opportunities. There's no excuse for creating family generations of unemployment. Forget Carrot and Coriander - it's carrot and stick TBF

jimmycrackcorm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm in favour of the long term unemployed being penalised with lower welfare benefits but also with increased training opportunities. There's no excuse for creating family generations of unemployment. Forget Carrot and Coriander - it's carrot and stick TBF

Training isn't the real answer though. Jobs are. The whole training aspect has been played with to death by people seeking to avoid work. training is important, and definite work at the end of the training period should be the goal.

Cianos

There's really no way to do this on a practical level. Administration and supervision of activities would be required, to make sure that those who are supposed to be working are actually working.

Further, if people don't do their share of work, it becomes a legal issue and I don't think criminalising people living in these kind of circumstances is a good approach. It's just going to lead to more disfranchisement and resentment towards 'the system'.

The only way I can see something like it working is by giving people the choice of what kind of dole 'package' they want. If it was an opt-in scheme, people interested in being more active while unemployed could sign up to programmes where they along with other people in similar circumstances go out in groups and do clean up jobs or landscape work etc. Some sort of monetary bonus would be needed, but I think if it was only a small amount it'd still be enough - there just needs to be something to show they are being paid extra for their extra work.

This way the people are doing it because they want to, and administration and supervision is easier because the groups are better organised and more enthused. Their efforts could also be officially recognised so when looking for work the prospective employers can see that they were actually out working and contributing while waiting for a regular job. Maybe for some they could go on and gain further complimentary education to broaden their skills and qualifications, such as a landscaping course, or become voluntary group leaders themselves.

On one end of the spectrum you have people who see the dole as a cushy way to pass the days without needing to lift a finger. On the other end, you have people who find themselves on the dole through unavoidable circumstances and end up sitting at home bored and depressed, who would probably enjoy the opportunity to get out of the house and get active.

dny123456

Cianos wrote: »

Further, if people don't do their share of work, it becomes a legal issue and I don't think criminalising people living in these kind of circumstances is a good approach. It's just going to lead to more disfranchisement and resentment towards 'the system'.

Just doc their dole by increasing increments. They'll soon fall into line, or else they weren't really in need.

Blue_Wolf

Nevore wrote: »

.
If it's the civil liberties issue that's bothering you, well, modify the current benefits system to include food vouchers etc. If x doesn't feel like helping making the state a nicer place for everyone, well, by all means the state will discharge it's responsibility and ensure you're fed and housed.

I think that food vouchers would be a great idea actually as it would prevent people from blowing all the money on alcohol, drugs and cigarettes. Only thing is would it be Tesco or Dunnes vouchers?
I mean that we live in a state that opposes monopoly, although I like the idea the Government can't have a contract with Tesco and start handing them out in dole payments. Good idea but how to implement it?

Also who's to say how much the voucher be for? Someone might eat less than the given amount and is than left short changed.

For those who are long term unemployed and don't have a disability, they just feel they are better off on the dole than having to work should be forced to do community work and have to check in maybe twice a week with a community leader.
Regarding those who have just been laid off and are actively looking for a job there should be community work offered to them. Not just street cleaning. I mean Gardening in the estate and other activities that can be enjoyed as well.

I was watching a programme on the tv the other day and there was a 40 year old man who was senior management on a really high salary, company car, had everything going for him and than let go and he is volunteering at his local farm to help out. He doesn't need the money as such but wants to keep his mind busy.
Such activities etc should be widely available for these people so they are not losing their mind staying at home day in day out.

the_syco

irish_bob wrote: »

i think it would be a great idea if the unemployed - long terms especially spent some of thier time picking up litter off our filthy streets and roads etc

Oh, what a great idea. Lets sack all the litter wardens, all those who collect the bins, those who collect litter off the ground, and get the unemployed to do it for free. Whilst we're at it, we could put some in McDonalds...:rolleyes:

irish_bob

the_syco wrote: »

Oh, what a great idea. Lets sack all the litter wardens, all those who collect the bins, those who collect litter off the ground, and get the unemployed to do it for free. Whilst we're at it, we could put some in McDonalds...:rolleyes:

no litter warden or county council picks up litter along roads and ditches in the countryside you moron , unless volunteers do it , it just lies there , i myself go round at least once a month with a fertilizer bag from my brothers farm and pick up trash

take a trip out to the sticks some time why dont you

passive

I think it's a pretty good plan... Though I also suggested they make the new male contraceptive injection compulsary for long-term dole recipients...

Coriolanus

Blue_Wolf wrote: »

Only thing is would it be Tesco or Dunnes vouchers?

It'd be a cash value voucher exchangeable by the person named on the voucher, at any store that signed up to the scheme.
So if Tescos and Dunnes both signed up (I can't imagine that they and the other large chains -wouldn't-) then it's up to the holder to decide where to shop.)
Having it only acceptable from the person named on the voucher would prevent a black market arising out of people selling their vouchers at less than face value for cash to buy drugs etc. Like the new social welfare restrictions basically, you have to present valid photo id.

Personally I'd bar alchohol and cigarette sales from the scheme, no doubt some bleeding hearts would scream about infringing on their rights etc.

Also who's to say how much the voucher be for? Someone might eat less than the given amount and is than left short changed.

As above, it'd be a cash amount. So if you manage to save a few euros by shopping around/not needing as much, you'd be free to spend the saved cash on whatever.

Oh, what a great idea. Lets sack all the litter wardens, all those who collect the bins, those who collect litter off the ground, and get the unemployed to do it for free. Whilst we're at it, we could put some in McDonalds...

I don't remember the last time I saw a litter warden walking the M50 and flagging people down. Odd that. Use some common sense, eh?

passive wrote: »

I think it's a pretty good plan... Though I also suggested they make the new male contraceptive injection compulsary for long-term dole recipients...

That'd never float I guess. Personally I think we ought to be harvesting sex cells at 12 and neutering everyone. When you decide to have kids you have to pass a rigourous testing process before you can get your eggs/sperm released. That's a whole other discussion though.

passive

Nevore wrote: »

That'd never float I guess. Personally I think we ought to be harvesting sex cells at 12 and neutering everyone. When you decide to have kids you have to pass a rigourous testing process before you can get your eggs/sperm released. That's a whole other discussion though.

Yeah... we're going to hell/Nuremburg...

Lobster

Everyone seems to suggest cleaning up litter and other manual work, what about getting people with the relevant qualifications to help with backlogs in the likes of Dole/council offices or other places that could do with the help? Jobs that don't involve access to sensitive information. Maybe a few hours a week when things are busy?

stovelid

Lobster wrote: »

Everyone seems to suggest cleaning up litter and other manual work, what about getting people with the relevant qualifications to help with backlogs in the likes of Dole/council offices or other places that could do with the help? Jobs that don't involve access to sensitive information. Maybe a few hours a week when things are busy?

Office jobs would not be punitive enough. Proponents of the scheme would require jobs that have an element of public humiliation about them. Like chain gangs. Also 'community' jobs provide employers with cheap labour, not 'real' jobs where you might have to pay somebody a living wage.

Coriolanus

stovelid wrote: »

Office jobs would not be punitive enough. Proponents of the scheme would require jobs that have an element of public humiliation about them. Like chain gangs. Also 'community' jobs provide employers with cheap labour, not 'real' jobs where you might have to pay somebody a living wage.

No, I wouldn't at least. The problem with "real" jobs is that they tend to need to be done 30-50 hours, regularly. If someone is doing work in the local tax office pushing paper around, well, they're no longer "long term unemployed" they're state employees.

Training is already there though I'd be the first to admit the current programs need to be expanded, not cut back.

We are however talking about people who have not availed of current programs to get back to work.

Remember, the public service stuff I'd like to see being done isn't for jobseekers, as defined as anyone -looking- for a job. I'd imagine most people who avail of the training opportunities already afforded them fall with the "jobseekers" category.

We're talking purely about people who for no lack of ability, physical or mental, have been out of work -longterm-. Slackers, spongers, junkies and so forth.

passive wrote: »

Yeah... we're going to hell/Nuremburg...

Nuremberg maybe, I don't believe in fairies/God/invisible elephants. :P