Heart attack

Ger the man

Probably been covered before but has anyone ever read up on the various articles about runners collapsing during marathons? Im hoping to do my first marathon this year and my other half is a bit anxious after hearing about Keith Duffy in the London marathon. I can run 12k with no problem and am slowly building on that plus I have never had any health problems. I know the cases of it are very low but how big a concern is it?

--amadeus--

Not a concern at all, TBH.

Most (all?) of those who have heart attacks during a marathon have SADS and they could have died doing any fitness activity (or none).

in the general population your chances of a heart attack increase during excercise but are dramatically reduced at all other times so teh medical consensus is that the small increase of risk for the small amount of time you excercise is worth the huge reduction in risk the rest of the time.

And don't forget that literally tens of thousands of people run marathons every month and very few have heart attacks - I would guess more people keel over in pubs every weekend than on marathon courses in a year but that won't get on the news!

RoyMcC

+1 That, I believe, is the definitive answer.

SUNGOD

what happened to keith duffy?

rovers_runner

Ger the man wrote: »

Probably been covered before but has anyone ever read up on the various articles about runners collapsing during marathons? Im hoping to do my first marathon this year and my other half is a bit anxious after hearing about Keith Duffy in the London marathon. I can run 12k with no problem and am slowly building on that plus I have never had any health problems. I know the cases of it are very low but how big a concern is it?

Ger,
The Irish lad who died in Barcelona was probably one of the fittest people in the course, you can never tell when people will go.
Most problems that happen are usually dehydration or injuries.
Anything more serious is unfortunately just fate.

donothoponpop

SUNGOD wrote: »

what happened to keith duffy?

--fingers crossed--

liamo

SUNGOD wrote: »

what happened to keith duffy?

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2009/0429/duffyk.html

....Duffy began to experience severe pain after completing the race ....
...the singer and actor has now had a double hernia operation....

tunney

Ger the man wrote: »

Probably been covered before but has anyone ever read up on the various articles about runners collapsing during marathons? Im hoping to do my first marathon this year and my other half is a bit anxious after hearing about Keith Duffy in the London marathon. I can run 12k with no problem and am slowly building on that plus I have never had any health problems. I know the cases of it are very low but how big a concern is it?

This is what happens when muppet "celebrities" do marathons to gain exposure for themselves. F*cking Jordon doing London in 9 hours or something - stopping to f8cking hug people. Seriously that slot could have gone to an actual runner.

Heart attacks are too good for some people.

Krusty_Clown

Statistics are probably a little dubious, but if it helps alay your girlfriend's fears:
Cardiac arrest during a marathon - 1/200,000
Heart attack due to coronary artery disease - 1/50,000
Link
If you think you can hit those odds, you should also enter the euro-millions draw tonight (just be careful crossing the road to get to the newsagents). I wonder how many heart attacks have been avoided through people taking up marathon training?

Ger the man

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Not a concern at all, TBH.

And don't forget that literally tens of thousands of people run marathons every month and very few have heart attacks - I would guess more people keel over in pubs every weekend than on marathon courses in a year but that won't get on the news!

True - never thought of that.

jlang

I think I remember that after there was a death in the Dublin marathon, someone calculated that given the number of runners over the years and the cumulative time they spend running, a random person is more likely to die at any random time than a runner during the marathon. Bull**** statistics it may be but it's been a good argument closer.

celestial

The whole general argument shows how funny human nature is. We can be quite happy to sit on the couch eating tv dinners and takeaways with the walk to and from the car counting as exercise - all adding up to a huge risk of heart disease/heart attacks over time, yet we worry about the headline-grabbers that affect an absolute tiny number of total people. As mentioned, if it makes the news it's rare enough.

Leaving that aside, when it comes to it, when your number's up, your number's up. I remember reading a good article on heart attacks in marathons before. One of the doctors said that if someone did have trouble during a marathon and died, if you had screened that person for any heart issues prior to the marathon, there's a good chance that everything would have come back A-OK. Sometimes it's just a random electrical mis-firing that causes it, while under stress.

plodder

There was a recent study that showed the death rate from marathons was lower than the death rate there would have been on the same roads, had they not been closed .... if that makes sense.

Like the OP, I used to worry about my heart, before I started marathon training. Since I started, I don't even think about it.

Though depending on your age, it might be wise to get checked out by your GP before going too far into the training.

hunnymonster

we had a more general discussion on hearts and endurance runners a while back (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055507394) in the biology and health forum. It's not exactly where the OP was going with this discussion but might be interesting for some of the ART regulars.

seamus

This also tends to be a heart defect which wouldn't otherwise manifest itself and which may never result in death, only if you're unlucky. If someone is really worried about it, they can get tested for it. If there is a history of heart problems in your family among younger people, it would be worth checking out.

jlang

Was Duffy's problem even related to his heart? The news reports say he had a double hernia operation but I'm not sure what that is.

hunnymonster

seamus, we don't often see you here. welcome. Now what's your poison, can I offer you a marathon, an ironman or maybe a gut-busting 400m?

robinph

Just taking the UK population and average daily rate of deaths from here and then applying my very bad mathematics skills ...

2000 / 59000000 = 0.000003389 chance of it being you that dies on any one day...

0.000003389 * 37,000 = 1.25 people who will die out of every 37,000 each day, that being the number I seem to remember as taking part in London at the weekend.

So if everyone taking part in the marathon makes it to the end of the day without dieing that is far more news worthy actually.

uglyjohn

ok, i havent even glanced over your figures....but surely since those rates you used include all demographics they dont really apply. What im trying to say is i imagine that the 2000 people a day includes more older and/or sick people while the runners of a marathon would probably consist of a younger, more active and healthier demographic and would make up a small part of the 2000 death a day.

let me try that again. if its 2000 deaths per day across all age groups and including all causes (cancer, car crash, long term illness, old age and so on) then thats not really relevant. what you want to compare it against is deaths from natural cause in healthy people with the same age profile. i image that number is a lot smaller than the 2000 a day.

2nd edit. by healthy i mean anyone who could in theory engage in regular exercise if they wanted to.

TheRoadRunner

uglyjohn wrote: »

let me try that again. if its 2000 deaths per day across all age groups and including all causes (cancer, car crash, long term illness, old age and so on) then thats not really relevant. what you want to compare it against is deaths from natural cause in healthy people with the same age profile. i image that number is a lot smaller than the 2000 a day.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics

liamo

jlang wrote: »

Was Duffy's problem even related to his heart?

No.

The news reports say he had a double hernia operation but I'm not sure what that is.

Well, here's what a hernia is. I assume a "double-hernia" refers to two of them.


It's not that uncommon. I had a hernia repair operation a few years back as did one of my colleagues. I also know a couple of other people who have hernias.

In fact, the occurance of my hernia was one of the incentives to get me to change my lifestyle and get fit - the surgeon said that my abs were very weak for someone of my age and that was the reason for the hernia. Based on that, I suppose it wouldn't have happened had I not been a wine-swilling, pizza-guzzling, overweight couch potato.

Now, apparently, all I have to worry about is a heart attack

uglyjohn

well statistically you're less likely to die violently, in a car accident, plane crash, from cancer, commit suicide or drown while running a marathon.

does that make you feel better? :cool:

shels4ever

Nice thread before a marathon .

jlang

shels4ever wrote: »

Nice thread before a marathon .

If you're safer running than not running ,you'll be the safest around because you'll be running the most! Good luck!

shels4ever

jlang wrote: »

If you're safer running than not running ,you'll be the safest around because you'll be running the most! Good luck!

I know, its not even something that would cross my mind, if your actually worried about your heart beore you start training get it checked out.

If your running your life style tends to be better and more chance of a heart attack from burgers and beer

robinph

uglyjohn wrote: »

ok, i havent even glanced over your figures....but surely since those rates you used include all demographics they dont really apply. What im trying to say is i imagine that the 2000 people a day includes more older and/or sick people while the runners of a marathon would probably consist of a younger, more active and healthier demographic and would make up a small part of the 2000 death a day.

let me try that again. if its 2000 deaths per day across all age groups and including all causes (cancer, car crash, long term illness, old age and so on) then thats not really relevant. what you want to compare it against is deaths from natural cause in healthy people with the same age profile. i image that number is a lot smaller than the 2000 a day.

2nd edit. by healthy i mean anyone who could in theory engage in regular exercise if they wanted to.

Well I certainly wouldn't claim that my source of data used was entirely representative of the participants of the London Marathon. But there was at least one terminally ill cancer patient who I saw being interviewed before the start, plenty of pensioners and also at least one person who clearly hadn't trained enough for running the event ( Ms. K. Price ) as well as "obese" radio/ football commentators. Apart from the lack of under 18's, although they are represented in the London boroughs races earlier in the morning, it's probably not actually too far off a fair approximmation of the general population taking part.

There are probably less people dressed as Superman in the rest of the population though.

Hard Worker

tunney wrote: »

This is what happens when muppet "celebrities" do marathons to gain exposure for themselves. F*cking Jordon doing London in 9 hours or something - stopping to f8cking hug people. Seriously that slot could have gone to an actual runner.

Heart attacks are too good for some people.

Despicable post.

Woddle

I must say tunney sometimes I question whether you come under the troll bracket. Theres times when you talk alot of sense and contribute such as on MCOS log but more times that not you seem to post single sentences aimed at a reaction.

Racing Flat

tunney wrote: »

This is what happens when muppet "celebrities" do marathons to gain exposure for themselves. F*cking Jordon doing London in 9 hours or something - stopping to f8cking hug people. Seriously that slot could have gone to an actual runner.

Firstly, Keith Duffy ran something like 3.53, a good respectable time and also presumably raised mare awareness for his chosen charity than any non-celebrity could. Also Nell McAndrew ran 3.10 so not all celebrities do (what some people might consider) 'poor' times so perhaps they should not be all tarred with the same brush.

Secondly, Jordan did 7.11 (I'm fairly sure) is about 16min/mile pace, so steady walking pace. To do that continuously for 26miles, particularly if you are being stopped to hug people and get interviewed every so often, well I was actually quite impressed with that.

redcloud

Ger the man wrote: »

Probably been covered before but has anyone ever read up on the various articles about runners collapsing during marathons? Im hoping to do my first marathon this year and my other half is a bit anxious after hearing about Keith Duffy in the London marathon. I can run 12k with no problem and am slowly building on that plus I have never had any health problems. I know the cases of it are very low but how big a concern is it?

If you have not had any health problems confirmed by your GP, then you should be safe. I believe that common sense prevails to anyone after a certain age to undergo a heart/health check before undertaking a marathon training program.
Even if a heart problem is discovered, they advise along with proper treatment, an exercise program to help a heart to return to some reasonable health. Besides prevention is better than the cure, so you could be doing a whole lot worse than marathon training.

Poncherello

Woddle wrote: »

I must say tunney sometimes I question whether you come under the troll bracket. Theres times when you talk alot of sense and contribute such as on MCOS log but more times that not you seem to post single sentences aimed at a reaction.

I agree completely, its no wonder you fell out with your previous triathlon club

Fair play to Jordan there are countless women who have taken up jogging since seeing her complete that race.

donothoponpop

Poncherello wrote: »

Fair play to Jordan there are countless women who have taken up jogging since seeing her complete that race.

Just a gut feeling, or do you have stats for this?

The unfortunate flip side to this argument is that many may be put off running because a "celebrity" underperforms, or injures themselves while running- as in the case of this thread.

RJC

To the OP - If you are seriously worried - or your girlfriend is - then for about 300 notes you can get a full stress ECG, resting ECG, blood chemistry and ultrasound of your heart done at your local private hospital. the Bons do it in Cork and it takes about 2 hours. You will have the whole thing reviewed by a cardiologist and he'll give you a thumbs-up or down on your prospects for prolonged endurance.

I know this because I had it done recently when my GP was a bit worried that I hadn't performed as well as I should have in a marathon. I have a family history so I was delighted to have the attention as I don't want to become a statistic. The only thing that was a bit weird is seeing your heart beating on the ultrasound screen - it looks very fragile. In the end, my problem was a virus and not cardiac.

The cardiologist said I was fine and had a good 'ejection factor'. Like most runners (or endurance athletes) I have a slightly enlarged heart. He did advise common sense about not flogging yourself into the ground if a race is not going as planned - something I knew but it's nice to have someone tell you all the same.

It's cheap for peace of mind - IMHO. Good luck.

dna_leri

To come back to the OP, I came across an article in runners world on this topic which advocates a taking aspirin as preventive measure for marathon runners.

See http://runningdoctor.runnersworld.com/2009/04/should-i-take-a-baby-aspirin-daily.html

Also recently from Boston globe:
http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/04/20/should_marathon_runners_take_a_baby_aspirin_before_a_big_race/

Marathon running can cause muscle injury that triggers production of inflammatory chemicals called cytokines. Cytokines boost activation of blood clotting agents called platelets, potentially raising the risk of clot-induced heart attacks, says Dr. Arthur Siegel, director of internal medicine at McLean Hospital in Belmont and a volunteer in the Boston Marathon medical tent.

In 2006, Siegel and colleagues reported in the journal of the American Society for Clinical Pathology that "during a race, a runner goes from the low risk to the high risk category for having an arterial thrombus [clot in an artery]." (The study used a blood test made by Bayer HealthCare, which makes aspirin.)

"Aspirin is potentially an antidote to this platelet activity," Siegel said - thus, it makes sense for marathoners to take a baby aspirin before a race.

The idea of taking a baby aspirin - 81 milligrams - before a marathon was also strongly endorsed this month by Dr. Lewis Maharam, medical director of the New York City Marathon and author of the "Ask the Running Doc" column in "Runner's World."

In March, the US Preventive Services Task Force, an independent panel of private-sector experts convened by the government, endorsed daily use of 75 milligrams of aspirin - roughly the amount in a baby aspirin - to prevent acute cardiovascular disease in men aged 45 to 79 and to prevent stroke in women aged 50 to 79, whether they are runners or not.

Aspirin was not recommended for people at low risk for cardiovascular disease. It cautioned that the recommendations apply only when the potential reduction of stroke or heart attack risk outweighs the increased risk of gastrointestinal bleeding due to aspirin.

Some doctors remain cautious. Dr. Malissa J. Wood, a cardiologist, co-director of the women's heart program at Massachusetts General Hospital and marathon researcher, cautioned that while muscle injury can increase platelet activity, it's not clear that this translates to heart problems in runners.