The Nathan Hines Lions V Perpignan thingy - whose in the right?

anonymous_joe

So as you may or may not be aware, Nathan Hines has decided to go and join the Lions at the expense of Perpignan's semi-final for the Top 14.

So whom do you think is in the right in this situation?

He's talked about the honour of playing for the Lions for British (his words) players, and said the Catalan fans wouldn't understand.

Many of them meanwhile feel he's a traitor whose abandoning them just when they need him.

A minor note - last time they were in the semis, Hines was on the bench.

crisco10

In fairness Perpignon do pay his wages so should have him available for the games at the business end of the season. (Away from the standard International windows)

On the upside, it proves his commitment to the Lions, unless he is playing silly beggar of course because he didn't get a game last time.

premierstone

Yeah I think Perpingan have every right to be very upset over this although I have made my feelings on the whole Lions farce known many times before so my judgement may be slightly clouded

bamboozle

they're his employers, they've every right to be p1ssed!

anonymous_joe

Yeah, I tend to feel he's really treating his club like shít...

Diom

I would do the same thing. Wages and wage-masters mean nothing next to playing for something as historical and as prestigious as the Lions. If the French cannot understand that then I feel sorry for them.

anonymous_joe

Diom wrote: »

I would do the same thing. Wages and wage-masters mean nothing next to playing for something as historical and as prestigious as the Lions. If the French cannot understand that then I feel sorry for them.

And what about semi-finals of the Top 14? That means a hell of a lot to their fans?

Surely their players should have the respect to at least pretend they care about the competition they play in. It's an extraordinarily indictment of the modern mercenary rugby player if that's their attitude.

Amazotheamazing

Disrespectful to his team's fans imo.

If O'Connell said he wasn't going to play in the HEC for fear of getting injured and missing the Lions everyone would want him dismissed from both Munster and the Lions. Top 14 is the biggest comp a french team plays in.

Diom

The Top 14 is nowhere NEAR the Lions in terms of importance and history. I'm sure that the Top 14 means a lot to French rugby fans, but the Lions is pinnacle of a career for most British and Irish players. I'm not saying they should be happy about it, but they should understand it.

I totally disagree about this showing up Hines as a mercenary. He is putting his money making career second to something that means more to him. If you are saying that in general the players should care about the competition, then yeah of course they should. I'm sure the Top 14 medal would mean something to Hines, as would a HEC or ML winners medal, but again, neither of those are more important than the Lions tours.

roryok

I agree that the french may not see the lions as important as those who are eligible may do, however at the end of the day perpignan are his club and as a professional rugby player he owes them, and their fans. Walking out at the semi-final stage of the french 14 is a bit much in my opinion, especially as playing for the lions is nowhere near as big a deal as it used to be (in my opinion) now that it is a commercial exercise for sky, hsbc etc

anonymous_joe

Diom wrote: »

The Top 14 is nowhere NEAR the Lions in terms of importance and history. I'm sure that the Top 14 means a lot to French rugby fans, but the Lions is pinnacle of a career for most British and Irish players. I'm not saying they should be happy about it, but they should understand it.

I totally disagree about this showing up Hines as a mercenary. He is putting his money making career second to something that means more to him. If you are saying that in general the players should care about the competition, then yeah of course they should. I'm sure the Top 14 medal would mean something to Hines, as would a HEC or ML winners medal, but again, neither of those are more important than the Lions tours.

A mercenary is someone who fights for money and no other loyalty. Sport is replete with examples of people who discover an affinity with a locale that's far from home. Eric Cantona remains a god in Manchester, Munster fans constantly shíte on about Tipoki, Mafi, Warwick and a whole host of other lads, Contepomi has (despite one or two big games ><) been a phenomenal servant of Leinster and beloved by the fans.

To tell your club and fans to fúck off seems to me a sad thing to do. Nathan Hines is a great player who clearly loves the game, it's a shame he's not at a club that means more to him. And I mean a shame for both him and for Perpignan a proud club who deserve more respect.

premierstone

Diom wrote: »

I would do the same thing. Wages and wage-masters mean nothing next to playing for something as historical and as prestigious as the Lions. If the French cannot understand that then I feel sorry for them.

Diom please im boiling here just reading this seriously what exactly is so prestigious about the Lions? A frienldy, commercially driven media circus ( which no doubt they will get thrashed in) over a semi final and possible final of the 2nd biggest competition in the NH.

premierstone

Diom wrote: »

I'm sure the Top 14 medal would mean something to Hines, as would a HEC or ML winners medal, but again, neither of those are more important than the Lions tours.

Now im getting really angry you really have been brainwashed by SKY :mad:

He'll look like some fool at home if he gets no gametime for the test team...

sock puppet

Diom wrote: »

The Top 14 is nowhere NEAR the Lions in terms of importance and history. I'm sure that the Top 14 means a lot to French rugby fans, but the Lions is pinnacle of a career for most British and Irish players. I'm not saying they should be happy about it, but they should understand it.

I totally disagree about this showing up Hines as a mercenary. He is putting his money making career second to something that means more to him. If you are saying that in general the players should care about the competition, then yeah of course they should. I'm sure the Top 14 medal would mean something to Hines, as would a HEC or ML winners medal, but again, neither of those are more important than the Lions tours.

To be fair the Top 14 has a lot of history too. And Perpignan haven't won it in a long long time and they have an excellent chance of making the final this year. Perpignan are his employers and he has obligations. He could have stayed in Scotland had he wanted. And I don't see why French fans would understand an Australian wanting to play for a British Isles team. It's not like he would have dreamed of playing for the Lions growing up.

anonymous_joe

Deleted User wrote: »

He'll look like some fool at home if he gets no gametime for the test team...

Which home?

France, Scotland or Australia? :pac:

narwog81

Diom wrote: »

Wages and wage-masters mean nothing next to playing for something as historical and as prestigious as the Lions. .

history and prestige dont pay the bills im afraid.

he who pays the piper calls the tune, perpingan surely have surely grounds to make him stay, he has to be in breach of contract if he leaves without their permission.

and failing that they should give him the boot for showing such an obvious lack of loyalty to his club.

themont85

premierstone wrote: »

Now im getting really angry you really have been brainwashed by SKY :mad:

Sorry Lawrence Dallaghio, McBride ect saying it was the pinnicle of their careers know nothing?The Lions has to be commercial to survive, just like club rugby. The Heineken Cup? Hardly a bastion of the pre proffessional age. All the leagues adopting knock out rugby which basterdised their 'leagues', sure thats not commercial at all:rolleyes: The All Blacks commercialising the haka, Munster selling a ridiculous amount of replica jerseys? Not commercial at all.

The lions predates the WC, HC ect, it is just as important and unique to rugby. Sky hold the rights to nearly every major rugby event, they over hype no doubt but don't be deluded to think that the Lions is the only commercialised vehicle in town.

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

Sorry Lawrence Dallaghio, McBride ect saying it was the pinnicle of their careers know nothing?The Lions has to be commercial to survive, just like club rugby. The Heineken Cup? Hardly a bastion of the pre proffessional age. All the leagues adopting knock out rugby which basterdised their 'leagues', sure thats not commercial at all:rolleyes: The All Blacks commercialising the haka, Munster selling a ridiculous amount of replica jerseys? Not commercial at all.

The lions predates the WC, HC ect, it is just as important and unique to rugby. Sky hold the rights to nearly every major rugby event, they over hype no doubt but don't be deluded to think that the Lions is the only commercialised vehicle in town.

For **** players like Hines and the other NH lads the reason the Lions means so much is because they willl never have a chance winning a world cup or being the top in International rugby. What else is someone like Hastings etc gonna say when asked what the pinnacle of his careeris? Getting minced by some SH team inthe1/4s of a WC? I doubt it. While LD said it was his pinnacle as well I'd be shocked if he things getting picked for the Lions is more important then winning the WC. Ask any of the New Zelanders/South Africans or Austrialians how important a lions tour is and I wonder if they prefer it to a tri nations win even.


As for Hines, he's a disgrace.

Orizio

Perpignan pay his wages.

/Thread.

In fairness, he shouldn't even be going, considering he is actually Australian, which is no longer a part of Britain (evidently Hines, Flutey and McGeechan missed a few grography and history lessons when they were young )

thomond2006

Chucky the tree wrote: »

As for Hines, he's a disgrace.

That's the kind of player we need against the 'Boks.

And yes I know he tried to choke ROG but saying he's a disgrace is overdoing it imo.

Stev_o

Chucky the tree wrote: »

. Ask any of the New Zelanders/South Africans or Austrialians how important a lions tour is and I wonder if they prefer it to a tri nations win even.


As for Hines, he's a disgrace.

Judging by the last 3 Lions tours the SH love nothing better then beating the living **** out of what ever the NH sends their way in red. Did the Australia mess about in 2001 and say "F*ck it's a joke*? No they were hell bent on winning the series and whatever midweek game they could. Same for New Zealand and it will be the same for the Saffers. 3N comes every year and it's a stale competition the Lions come once in 4 years! If they didn't care about it why did the SA union try to get Australia and NZ to change the ELV's to the NH style for this year? Mean surely if they didn;t care at all about the series they wouldn't care what rules were used, they'd be fine with the Lions having a advantage.


How is Hines a disgrace? Perpignan are muck and haven't changed a bit, they play boring rugby and are pretty happy to just out muscle every team in the Top14. They'll get nowhere and the cycle will continue next year. Hines will never go on a Lions tour again, why would he turn down such a unique invitation.

To put it in simpler terms, if you were offered to go play for the Lions instead of working for 3 weeks weeks would you accept?

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

For **** players like Hines and the other NH lads the reason the Lions means so much is because they willl never have a chance winning a world cup or being the top in International rugby. What else is someone like Hastings etc gonna say when asked what the pinnacle of his careeris? Getting minced by some SH team inthe1/4s of a WC? I doubt it. While LD said it was his pinnacle as well I'd be shocked if he things getting picked for the Lions is more important then winning the WC. Ask any of the New Zelanders/South Africans or Austrialians how important a lions tour is and I wonder if they prefer it to a tri nations win even.


As for Hines, he's a disgrace.

I love how selective you are with your players and facts here. Okay in that video Lawerence Dallaghio, World Cup WINNER, HC winner, grand slam winner, GP winner says it was the pinnicle of his rugby career, those were his exact words no ifs and buts there like you threw in. Hastings, one of the greatest ever Scots says it, winner of a GS with the Scots(which don't come around often), says it. You clearly don't know any rugby people from the SH, the Saffers still talk about the 74 Lions with respect, one of my mates who is in his mid twenties from SA says that was one of the biggest sores in SA rugby history.

You have little evidence to support your argument, but instead contradict some of the greatest players in rugby history.

Listen the world cup is incredible and the biggest hole in many people's career such as the All Blacks like Lomu and Umanga is not to win it, the achievment all players covet but nothing has the history of a Lions tour, nothing. It is not just a complete commercial excercise as suggested by some, that could be spout about a lot of things in that case, the HEINEKEN CUP, GUINNESS PREMIERSHIP ect.

I also haven't really commented on this situation properly but here's my view, what Hines has done isn't disgraceful its a difficult choice based on the fact that he won't get this chance often. He has but his livelihood at stake in a big way, one thing though does this fall in the international window, it runs till June 6th right? If so the French can't really complain and with all the imports from England and Scotland should have seen this coming. The French season is a complete joke really if we are honest, running into June is dreadful really, but thats an argument for another day...

Chucky the tree

Stev_o wrote: »

Judging by the last 3 Lions tours the SH love nothing better then beating the living **** out of what ever the NH sends their way in red. Did the Australia mess about in 2001 and say "F*ck it's a joke*? No they were hell bent on winning the series and whatever midweek game they could. Same for New Zealand and it will be the same for the Saffers. 3N comes every year and it's a stale competition the Lions come once in 4 years! If they didn't care about it why did the SA union try to get Australia and NZ to change the ELV's to the NH style for this year? Mean surely if they didn;t care at all about the series they wouldn't care what rules were used, they'd be fine with the Lions having a advantage.


How is Hines a disgrace? Perpignan are muck and haven't changed a bit, they play boring rugby and are pretty happy to just out muscle every team in the Top14. They'll get nowhere and the cycle will continue next year. Hines will never go on a Lions tour again, why would he turn down such a unique invitation.

To put it in simpler terms, if you were offered to go play for the Lions instead of working for 3 weeks weeks would you accept?

Jesus, for someone who usually a solid poster this is awful ****e from you. Of course they didnt say **** it, the same way no top international players says "**** it" during any international match. Is the Lions tour the pinnacle of a SH players career though? **** no. It probaly the pinnacle of some of the no hoper mid-week teams who they face and thats why they get a tough time. Do you think SA would swap their world cup win for a Lions win? Hardly.

It your point on hines and Perpignan is the bizarre thing I have ever read. What do their playing style have to do with it? Also you'd think a 2nd rower would be delighted with their style of play if they like to out muscle people. If Perpigan played a much more attractive game would it then be unacceptable for him to leave?


There's simple terms and there's retarded terms. Your making it out as if he's allowed. If I did what he did I'd be out of a job in a flash and the only reason he's doing is because the nature of his work he'll find another club no problem so he can get away with it. I actually hope Perpignan sue him for breach of contract. I wouldnt mind, but doesnt even have much hope in making the first 22 let alone the first 15.

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

I love how selective you are with your players and facts here. Okay in that video Lawerence Dallaghio, World Cup WINNER, HC winner, grand slam winner, GP winner says it was the pinnicle of his rugby career, those were his exact words no ifs and buts there like you threw in. Hastings, one of the greatest ever Scots says it, winner of a GS with the Scots(which don't come around often), says it. You clearly don't know any rugby people from the SH, the Saffers still talk about the 74 Lions with respect, one of my mates who is in his mid twenties from SA says that was one of the biggest sores in SA rugby history.

You have little evidence to support your argument, but instead contradict some of the greatest players in rugby history.

Listen the world cup is incredible and the biggest hole in many people's career such as the All Blacks like Lomu and Umanga is not to win it, the achievment all players covet but nothing has the history of a Lions tour, nothing. It is not just a complete commercial excercise as suggested by some, that could be spout about a lot of things in that case, the HEINEKEN CUP, GUINNESS PREMIERSHIP ect.

Constant contradictions? Your mate and some PR Lions video job by sky? Do you think if LD said the lions didnt mean much to him they would of showed that? I wonder if POC would choice winning the GS this year or the Lions tour of New Zeland. I'd make a rough guess at what he would pick, I'd probaly contradict myself.

sock puppet

thomond2006 wrote: »

And yes I know he tried to choke ROG.

Eh no he didn't.

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Constant contradictions? Your mate and some PR Lions video job by sky? Do you think if LD said the lions didnt mean much to him they would of showed that? I wonder if POC would choice winning the GS this year or the Lions tour of New Zeland. I'd make a rough guess at what he would pick, I'd probaly contradict myself.

Sorry what are you implying, Sky invented the lustre of the Lions? I just read an interview with Gareth Edwards about the Lions, he describes about how he read about it when he was younger, actually i think his exact quote was something like 'we didn't have the DVDS you have now'.The Lions has been in existence since the 19th centruary. You have no basis to your argument, absolutely none. I love this 'I wonder if POC..' part of your statement, basis for your argument? What about Hastings who you already belittled earlier in the thread, he won a Slam with the Scots but described how great it was to be a Lion. I've yet to hear of a player slag the Lions, they may have had issues with managment, but nobody does with the honour of selection.

And whats this mean ' Do you think if LD said the lions didnt mean much to him they would of showed that?', what the hell does that mean? He said it, its a fact. He says similar in his book. No ifs or buts or speculation on your part.

Is all you like club rugby? Don't get me wrong i love the HC but a competition running since 95 as opposed to something really unique in my sport, for me no competition. And the media and most people. I also note in other threads that you wouldn't support Leinster in the HC if it happens, are you a johnny come lately to rugby? Thats against the spirit of the game. The lions embodies one of the major things what makes rugby interesting to me.

Sparky14

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Constant contradictions? Your mate and some PR Lions video job by sky? Do you think if LD said the lions didnt mean much to him they would of showed that? I wonder if POC would choice winning the GS this year or the Lions tour of New Zeland. I'd make a rough guess at what he would pick, I'd probaly contradict myself.

You obviously don't care much for the Lions, Hines obviously disagrees with you simple as that really. Pretty obvious most would prefer to win a World Cup over a Lions Tour, though can't imagine many would prefer to win a Guiness Prem, Magners League or Top 14. Its a blow to Perpignan, but they're a team that could afford to bring over Carter for a Sabbatical so I won't be losing any sleep over their plight.

premierstone

Orizio wrote: »

Perpignan pay his wages.

/Thread.

In fairness, he shouldn't even be going, considering he is actually Australian, which is no longer a part of Britain (evidently Hines, Flutey and McGeechan missed a few grography and history lessons when they were young )

As you did yourself bud last time I checked Ireland was no longer part of Britain either

stephen_n

They shouldn't let him go as they don't have to and added to that they should bench him for total disrespect of the club and it's fans. Goes to show he is a total mercenary and doesn't give a **** about the game or his club.

It's hardly like he is a defenite starter on the test team

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

Sorry what are you implying, Sky invented the lustre of the Lions? I just read an interview with Gareth Edwards about the Lions, he describes about how he read about it when he was younger, actually i think his exact quote was something like 'we didn't have the DVDS you have now'.The Lions has been in existence since the 19th centruary. You have no basis to your argument, absolutely none. I love this 'I wonder if POC..' part of your statement, basis for your argument? What about Hastings who you already belittled earlier in the thread, he won a Slam with the Scots but described how great it was to be a Lion. I've yet to hear of a player slag the Lions, they may have had issues with managment, but nobody does with the honour of selection.

I'm sure the lusture of the lions is fantastic and so is the history. The reason the previous lions tours were so big/the older players loved was because realistically it was the only chance they had of beating a SH team. Thats why the likes of Hastings, Edwards etc talk about it with such happiness and love.

themont85 wrote: »

And whats this mean ' Do you think if LD said the lions didnt mean much to him they would of showed that?', what the hell does that mean? He said it, its a fact. He says similar in his book. No ifs or buts or speculation on your part.

It pretty obvious what it means. Selective editing on the Sky hype machine. If LD thinks picking picked for the Lions was the best moment in his entire life then fair play to him, I cant argue with that.

themont85 wrote: »

Is all you like club rugby? Don't get me wrong i love the HC but a competition running since 95 as opposed to something really unique in my sport, for me no competition. And the media and most people. I also note in other threads that you wouldn't support Leinster in the HC if it happens, are you a johnny come lately to rugby? Thats against the spirit of the game. The lions embodies one of the major things what makes rugby interesting to me.

I enjoy a competition like the HEC far more then the 6nations from a neutral point of view. Does that make me a "bad" rugby fan now? Against the spirit of the game? I'd called Hines running off and leaving the team who pay his wages and put food on his table far more against the "spirit of rugby" then me not supporting leinster in a HEC final.

I've watched the lions since 97' and I love every minute of it, any other year and I'd be seriously tempted to go but It doesnt mean I agree with what Hines is doing. Hines should of made it clear at the start of the season that come the end of May he was going on a Lions tour if picked, this would of given them the chance to off-load him and sign someone who would honor their contract.


As for the Lions vs GS or tri-nations, personally I'd much rather win a medal in a top level international competition then being picked as one of the best 4 players in my position in a given year.

Fishtits

For the record, the shackle draggers in Oz are still part of the Empire. They rejected republic status in a referendum not so long ago.

Similar status hangs on the necks of the Canucks etc.

PS I'm apolitical...

anonymous_joe

themont85 wrote: »

I also haven't really commented on this situation properly but here's my view, what Hines has done isn't disgraceful its a difficult choice based on the fact that he won't get this chance often. He has but his livelihood at stake in a big way, one thing though does this fall in the international window, it runs till June 6th right? If so the French can't really complain and with all the imports from England and Scotland should have seen this coming. The French season is a complete joke really if we are honest, running into June is dreadful really, but thats an argument for another day...

If Hines asked McGeechan publically if he could come out later or something it'd be a decent gesture to make I'd have thought.

But telling your club and fans to fúck off because this means more to him than they do seems a bit shítty to be honest.

ixus

Respect him for making the choice of prestige of the Lions over money and the subsequent fallout of not playing for Perpignan. Feel for the fans and the club, but understand his position.

If he makes the 2nd row and wins in South Afirca, he will be remembered. If he wins a Super 14, who in the Lions regions will remember?

Orizio

premierstone wrote: »

As you did yourself bud last time I checked Ireland was no longer part of Britain either

Depends what part of the island you are on.

Anyway, its the British and Irish Lions, don't see the problem. Rather not argue about it anyway, particurly with a Tipp man, can only ever shut you feckers up when you come across a sheep that you can shag...

CatFromHue

In nz in 2005 didnt Gareth Thomas, the welsh guy with toulouse, stay in France until his club commitments were done.

Diom

Hello all,

Sorry for stoking the fire and then leaving. Seems I am in the minority here. Fair enough.

Right the fact that the Top 14 is a highly prestigious competition and it has a wonderful history all of its own is not being disregarded in my arguments. Of course it does and of course that is important.
The fact that Hines is an Australian, is also important, probably more so. I think that Hines has just as much right as anyone else. When did he come north can anyone tell me? But either way winning a Lions series is a phenomenal achievement and one which most sportsmen would like to bend their backs to, regardless of origin.

As for the Lions being a commercial circus...what part of rugby is not these days? The first Lions tour was in the early parts of this century, and has been going ever since. That's a great deal of history, and playing for/against the Lions is something every rugby player wants to do.
Just because (like everything) commercial interests in terms of sponsors and television rights are now a part of the Lions tours it doesn't mean it is somehow ONLY that. The same interests are involved in the ML, the GP, the Top14, the Super 14, the WC, and every international test as well. If that really bothers you then you would have to limit yourself to watching junior rugby on a saturday.

And now for the fact that Perpignan have a contract with him...it doesn't mean they own him, and they almost assuredly have some legal avenues that they could pursue if they wished to recoup their lost performances. Hines is making a choice, that the Lions is more important than playing for Perpignan in the Top 14, and more important than the consequences that might arise from that. That takes balls. Fair play to him.
I would make the exact same choice. I wouldn't if I were playing, say, for Connacht for a spot in the HEC. But I am not Hines and Perpignan are not Connacht.

As someone on the thread said, it's probably a pity that Hines does not feel that way about perpignan or play for a team which does invoke those feelings for him. But he DOESN'T...