I know this can be done.....

godskitchen

Hello all.

I live in rural mayo and have a very good FWA service of 512k up and down (1Mb burst down).

It is costing €35/month inc VAT, which is very good value for a reliable broadband service.

512k is not enough for 3 of us anymore with RTE Player and BBCiPlayer etc.

To upgrade to 1mb/sit will cost 79ex VAT and for 2mb/s 169ex VAT.



Here is simply what I want to do.

I want to send a wifi signal (Site 1) approx 7-8Km (Site 2) with line of sight and then relay that signal to my house (Site 3), which is another 1-2Km away with line of sight to Site 2.

It is simple enough apart from one issue, no power at Site 2!

So what I need is advice and pointing in the right direction, I know I can power Site 2 with solar and batteries but I dont have a clue where to look for the gear to do it....... power and wifi gear.

I was thinking of using 5GHz gear as that spectrum is not as widely used as 2.4GHz and gives higher speeds.

Just so you know I want to send up to 24Mb Smart broadband from Site1.

Any advice would be great........

Wcool

Hi Godskitchen,

What you want is something like this:

BB->router + wifi panel -> 5 km <- wifi panel, router + solar, wifi panel -> 2 km <- wifi panel + router -> YOU

You could do this with Mikrotik boards, among others.

What you need is this:
3 Routerboards 433, cheaper is possible but not really that much of a difference these days (have a look at http://www.routerboard.com/
1 router board will be where the BB comes out of the wall, 1 for your home and 1 for to power 2 panels for transmission
4 radio panels, these are the antenna's, 2x2 point-to-point link = 4
4 wifi CM9 radio cards, the 5 ghz radio's, these are mini pci cards going into the routers, 2 for the middle one (solar powered one)
3 waterproof cases to house the router boards
4 pigtails for connection from the wifi card to the antenna
3 Power of Ethernet injectors (POE) to power your router board via the CAT5 cables
2 power adapters + 1 solar powered adapter (at least 18v)
1 connector from 1 routerboard to 1 panel
Network cables

I have no idea about the solar powered power adapter, but I am sure it is no problem.

Your speed will be much better than 512mbit!

More information here:
http://doc.thewan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90
and here:

http://doc.thewan.net/wiki/index.php/Category:Hardware

godskitchen

Wcool wrote: »

Hi Godskitchen,

What you want is something like this:

BB->router + wifi panel -> 5 km <- wifi panel, router + solar, wifi panel -> 2 km <- wifi panel + router -> YOU

You could do this with Mikrotik boards, among others.

What you need is this:
3 Routerboards 433, cheaper is possible but not really that much of a difference these days (have a look at http://www.routerboard.com/
1 router board will be where the BB comes out of the wall, 1 for your home and 1 for to power 2 panels for transmission
4 radio panels, these are the antenna's, 2x2 point-to-point link = 4
4 wifi CM9 radio cards, the 5 ghz radio's, these are mini pci cards going into the routers, 2 for the middle one (solar powered one)
3 waterproof cases to house the router boards
4 pigtails for connection from the wifi card to the antenna
3 Power of Ethernet injectors (POE) to power your router board via the CAT5 cables
2 power adapters + 1 solar powered adapter (at least 18v)
1 connector from 1 routerboard to 1 panel
Network cables

I have no idea about the solar powered power adapter, but I am sure it is no problem.

Your speed will be much better than 512mbit!

More information here:
http://doc.thewan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90
and here:

http://doc.thewan.net/wiki/index.php/Category:Hardware

Wow thanks for that info, it is just what I was looking for......really big help, thanks for taking the time.

I knew what I needed but did not know where to look.

I did a site survey today and have now have work out the fine details.

If I do go ahead with it I will document every aspect of it with photos and detailed descriptions, I am sure the info will be of use to someone at some point.

Again thanks for your help, I am sure I will be posting here again soon so keep an eye out:)

Fuzzy Clam

Hi Godskitchen
Check out www.solarworld.com ( Koekraf Alternative Energy) on Ebay for solar kits.
I purchased a 42 watt kit comprising of 3 panels, a 12v regulator and a 300 watt inverter for exactly the same purpose as yours (never got used tho). I think it was about 330 euros delivered.
You need (idealy) a deep cycle battery like the type used on boats. Also a good frame to mount the panels in to prevent them taking off in the wind!!

Word of warning. The gear I got from Koekraf went "missing" with the courier here and Koekraf were less than helpfull in trying to locate it

Wcool

What I like to mention: it sounds as if your connection cost you quite a lot, something in the order of 500 euro and a lot of hassle.

BUT, you can make this worthwhile by sharing your connection.

My suggestion is to replace the panel to panel connection in the middle with an omni. Or add an extra omni (routerboard 433 will support 2 panels + 1 omni)
I don't know what your knowledge level is so if this is old hat please say so, an omni is an antenna that spreads the signal around. What you can do is, place an omni at the middle point or at your home. This would allow people in a radius of up to 10km with direct line of sight to link in to your omni by having them buy another routerboard. You could charge say a tenner for this (to use your Smart connection)

Smart 24 bit could easily support 4 or 6 users and you can even set certain speed/download limits for the people connecting to you, thus ensuring you are always get at least your speed first.

Now, if this sounds daunting to you, yes it is a bit (lot!) of work, but if you think of it: it makes you surf for free AND makes people out in the sticks connect to a top nodge connection quite cheaply. WIN-WIN

godskitchen

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Hi Godskitchen
Check out www.solarworld.com ( Koekraf Alternative Energy) on Ebay for solar kits.
I purchased a 42 watt kit comprising of 3 panels, a 12v regulator and a 300 watt inverter for exactly the same purpose as yours (never got used tho). I think it was about 330 euros delivered.
You need (idealy) a deep cycle battery like the type used on boats. Also a good frame to mount the panels in to prevent them taking off in the wind!!

Word of warning. The gear I got from Koekraf went "missing" with the courier here and Koekraf were less than helpfull in trying to locate it

Thanks, that is a great help. Again I knew what I needed but not the best place to look, that is a fair bit less expensive than I had budgeted for.....

Just out of interest, what was the project you were going to use it for? And why did it not go ahead?

Wcool wrote: »

What I like to mention: it sounds as if your connection cost you quite a lot, something in the order of 500 euro and a lot of hassle.

BUT, you can make this worthwhile by sharing your connection.

My suggestion is to replace the panel to panel connection in the middle with an omni. Or add an extra omni (routerboard 433 will support 2 panels + 1 omni)
I don't know what your knowledge level is so if this is old hat please say so, an omni is an antenna that spreads the signal around. What you can do is, place an omni at the middle point or at your home. This would allow people in a radius of up to 10km with direct line of sight to link in to your omni by having them buy another routerboard. You could charge say a tenner for this (to use your Smart connection)

Smart 24 bit could easily support 4 or 6 users and you can even set certain speed/download limits for the people connecting to you, thus ensuring you are always get at least your speed first.

Now, if this sounds daunting to you, yes it is a bit (lot!) of work, but if you think of it: it makes you surf for free AND makes people out in the sticks connect to a top nodge connection quite cheaply. WIN-WIN

It is funny, only this morning I was thinking about maybe using the connection as a ISP, I know at least three people that would use it.

While it is something to think about I am not too sure how Smart would look upon someone using their network reselling it.

Something to look into as the users would not be heavy users downloading a ton of content.


It would help with the cost of the project for sure.

As far a my knowledge level goes I would say I could get by.....I have set up wireless connections in the past using Yagi antennas and Linksys WRT54G Ver.2 at either end with DD-WRT firmware running on both.


From what I have seen on you tube, the RouterBoards do not seem to be too steep of a learning curve, I would be confident I could set them up after a few hours of reading/playing.

Out of interest, what speed throughput would I get from a 5Ghz system at 8Km......for example it I had multi users connecting to the Onmi antenna would he network suffer greatly? The house I intended to connect to (Where the DSL line will be) is about 10 meters from the exchange so I would expect somewhere around 20+Mb from that connection........how much of that would I get?

Cheers for all the help guys

Wcool

godskitchen wrote: »

...

While it is something to think about I am not too sure how Smart would look upon someone using their network reselling it.
...

Well, I don't know their Terms of Service but from a technical view point it doesn't look to Smart any different from a home LAN: multiple computers sharing the same internet connection.

godskitchen wrote: »

...
From what I have seen on you tube, the RouterBoards do not seem to be too steep of a learning curve, I would be confident I could set them up after a few hours of reading/playing.
...

yes, they come with a nice application called winbox, where you can set all sorts of parameters via a GUI. The possibilities are more or less the same as DD-WRT, probably even more.

godskitchen wrote: »

...
Out of interest, what speed throughput would I get from a 5Ghz system at 8Km......for example it I had multi users connecting to the Onmi antenna would he network suffer greatly? The house I intended to connect to (Where the DSL line will be) is about 10 meters from the exchange so I would expect somewhere around 20+Mb from that connection........how much of that would I get?

TBH I don't know, I am connected to a 2.4 ghz Omni at 5 km distance (distance should not matter much), 5 ghz omni's are apparently not great.
I get around 300Kbyte/s to other nodes that are 7 hops away, I get around 600Kbyte to people at 4 hops, strongly depending on which link I get, through the city ain't great (interference).
I run a 2.4 ghz omni myself, 3 people are connected to my, they rarely are using full whack at the same time, throughput is around 1000Kbyte.
Not sure what is achievable, but point to point will be much higher that these figures.

Fuzzy Clam

godskitchen wrote: »

Just out of interest, what was the project you were going to use it for? And why did it not go ahead?

The project was much the same as what you're doing but over a shorter distance. (max 2 km hops)
I didn't need the solar gear in the end as a local farmer allowed me to use his barn and electricity for the repeater.
Since got "proper" bb around here so no longer using the system.

godskitchen

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Hi Godskitchen
Check out www.solarworld.com ( Koekraf Alternative Energy) on Ebay for solar kits.
I purchased a 42 watt kit comprising of 3 panels, a 12v regulator and a 300 watt inverter for exactly the same purpose as yours (never got used tho). I think it was about 330 euros delivered.
You need (idealy) a deep cycle battery like the type used on boats. Also a good frame to mount the panels in to prevent them taking off in the wind!!

Word of warning. The gear I got from Koekraf went "missing" with the courier here and Koekraf were less than helpfull in trying to locate it

Hey again, I have been doing more research into solar panels and am finding it hard to get the information I need.

All the info I am getting is from places with more hours of sun than here in Ireland.....lets face it, that is most of the world.:mad:

I am assuming you thought a 42 watt kit comprising of 3 panels was enough to power a routerboard........how many batteries would you have looked at using?

Would that kind of set up be enough to power the routerboard all year around?

Cheers.

bushy...

Any chance you could find an alternative location with power for the gear in the middle ?
It will go a reasonable distance anyway.

Or look at wind + solar if you can't find an alternative location.

godskitchen

bushy... wrote: »

Any chance you could find an alternative location with power for the gear in the middle ?
It will go a reasonable distance anyway.

Or look at wind+ solar if you have to go that route .

It is funny, the place where I intend to put the relay is within spitting distance of ESB lines, however the nearest connection I could come off is maybe 1k down the hill.

The relay has to go where I have planned or I will not have line of sight to Site 1.

Fuzzy Clam

godskitchen wrote: »

I am assuming you thought a 42 watt kit comprising of 3 panels was enough to power a routerboard........how many batteries would you have looked at using?

Would that kind of set up be enough to power the routerboard all year around?

Cheers.

I reckoned using a standard car battery @44AH, I would have got 2 days without a charge assuming draw of less than 1 Amp. If it meant I had to replace the battery every few days due to poor sunlight, then so be it as I had easy access to the field I was planning on using.

TBH, I never got any further at working out what size and how many batteries would be needed in the long term as the offer to use the barn (with power) superceeded that plan.

Have you considered asking the ESB how much it would cost to bring a line to your location? It might not be as expensive as you may think.

Fuzzy Clam

Ok. Heres a possible solution, at least a short term one until you sort something else out.

Lets assume the router board requires 24v at 1 amp. A good deep cycle battery will deliver 125 AH giving you 5 days continous use between charges. Get a second battery and charger and simply swap them every 5 days if it's not inconvient.

Of course I guessing at these figures as I don't know the exact power you require but you get the drift.

bushy...

godskitchen wrote: »

It is funny, the place where I intend to put the relay is within spitting distance of ESB lines, however the nearest connection I could come off is maybe 1k down the hill.

The relay has to go where I have planned or I will not have line of sight to Site 1.

Ask for a power drop off one of the poles , bit grey for solar power all year round ,wind power is ok but still more hassle then mains.

A km of cable would be another option , again Just Works if its a suitable area and is put in right

godskitchen

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Ok. Heres a possible solution, at least a short term one until you sort something else out.

Lets assume the router board requires 24v at 1 amp. A good deep cycle battery will deliver 125 AH giving you 5 days continous use between charges. Get a second battery and charger and simply swap them every 5 days if it's not inconvient.

Of course I guessing at these figures as I don't know the exact power you require but you get the drift.

Cheers buddy, I have been doing some research and the figures I have seen for a RB433 and one radio card are

"We know our Routerboard is going to consume ~6 Watts of power, and we know that we are going to run it 24 Hours a day.

We now calculate the watt hours per day by multiplying the wats consumed by the number of hours of operation:
6 Watts x 24 Hours Operation = 144 Watt Hours

Then we must calculate the daily Amp Hours requirement for the system. We know in advance that we are choosing a 24Volt System.
So: 144 Watt Hours / 24 Volts = 6 Amp Hours Per Day

I got this from the routerboards forum, and it has some great detailed information on there.

Here is a link to the wiki I pulled that info from
http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Solar_Power_HOWTO

It is more than possible to achieve what I want to do......if we got a fair amount of sun light here, but we dont......so I have to work out how many batteries/extra solar panels I will need to compensate.

As for swapping out the batteries every few days........not something I would like to have to do, its half way up a mountain with no road, it is 1 hour 30 minute round trip to walk it. I want a fast internet connection but not that badly!

Fuzzy Clam

Well that more or less confirms my own calculations I made about using a 42 watt panel.
Going on that, a 125 AH battery will last 20 days. This abviously is a "rolling" 20 day period.
Starting off with a fully charged battery, it would only take a few days of sunshine/month to keep the battery at full capacity.
I honestly can't envisage a problem with that setup.

I might carry out an expieriment here with my own gear using the car battery to see how long it runs a wireless router for. I just need to secure the panels to the side of the house.

bushy...

godskitchen wrote: »

I got this from the routerboards forum, and it has some great detailed information on there.

Here is a link to the wiki I pulled that info from
http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Solar_Power_HOWTO

It is more than possible to achieve what I want to do......if we got a fair amount of sun light here, but we dont......so I have to work out how many batteries/extra solar panels I will need to compensate.

* "finished product" in that wiki article is a dangerous pile of crap btw see below


It is well possible to do it .

The location leaves you with a few options or combinations of :

Mains power from nearby pole or from down the hill

Solar power + battery bank ( not a lot of sun all year round )

Wind power + battery bank ( not always windy but should be ok )

Genny + battery bank ( kicks in once every few days to charge. )


There are problems with all so you need to sit back and pick n choose .

Solar on its own will need large panels for the grey months of misery , may be damaged/stolen etc.


Wind on its own should work but the little windmill may draw attention from bored kids etc or be stolen

Wind and solar + batteries should be sweet , bound to have or the other


A diesel genny that starts when needed to charge the batteries would work fine but even more prone to being stolen , and you need to get refuel it now and again. Needs to be bunded along with the tank so leaks aren't a problem.



Mains from nearby pole will cost a few quid every month so weigh install and cost against projected life of solar gear

Mains from down the hill will need cable buried ( probably less cost than all the solar stuff ) to spec. , can run 48v instead if you regulate it at the top.


Out of all , mains/48v may not have the same factor you get when its all running away by itself but the novelty of that wears off easily.

Theft/damage to such gear is not unheard of either , especially if its well put together , a farmer may buy such a setup unknowingly to power a remote fencer etc.


* what do i think is wrong with yoke in wiki article ? :

Vented batteries in same enclosure as the leccy gear, with added crap venting.
Yes I have seen them explode.

godskitchen

bushy... wrote: »

* "finished product" in that wiki article is a dangerous pile of crap btw see below


It is well possible to do it .

The location leaves you with a few options or combinations of :

Mains power from nearby pole or from down the hill

Solar power + battery bank ( not a lot of sun all year round )

Wind power + battery bank ( not always windy but should be ok )

Genny + battery bank ( kicks in once every few days to charge. )


There are problems with all so you need to sit back and pick n choose .

Solar on its own will need large panels for the grey months of misery , may be damaged/stolen etc.


Wind on its own should work but the little windmill may draw attention from bored kids etc or be stolen

Wind and solar + batteries should be sweet , bound to have or the other


A diesel genny that starts when needed to charge the batteries would work fine but even more prone to being stolen , and you need to get refuel it now and again. Needs to be bunded along with the tank so leaks aren't a problem.



Mains from nearby pole will cost a few quid every month so weigh install and cost against projected life of solar gear

Mains from down the hill will need cable buried ( probably less cost than all the solar stuff ) to spec. , can run 48v instead if you regulate it at the top.


Out of all , mains/48v may not have the same factor you get when its all running away by itself but the novelty of that wears off easily.

Theft/damage to such gear is not unheard of either , especially if its well put together , a farmer may buy such a setup unknowingly to power a remote fencer etc.


* what do i think is wrong with yoke in wiki article ? :

Vented batteries in same enclosure as the leccy gear, with added crap venting.
Yes I have seen them explode.

I hear what you are saying and have considered wind + solar but the cost of a small wind turbine is just silly. Unless someone can point me in the direction of reasonably priced 12V turbines?


The mains from down the hill, I have pretty much ruled that out, the distance is just too far, its closer to 2km than I thought.

A generator could be an option, how would it auto start when the batteries run low?

As for the equipment being stolen, good luck to them, where I plan to have the kit is up the side of a mountain. It is not somewhere anyone goes, ever. It is inaccessible to most people without having to carry a battery/solar panel. I will have a job getting the kit up there and it would take sometime to remove it, in which time I would have noticed my internet connection not working.............just enough time to get the shotgun:D

I would also plan to have it pretty well camouflaged.

At the moment it is looking like wind + solar as the best option. I could assume that solar would take care of it on its own but I know what the weather is like here in the winter. More wind than sun. Either way I am more determined than ever to get this working, just for the satisfaction factor alone!

Fuzzy Clam

Yeah Bushy..., the way that guy did it is not great.
Its still possible with careful consideration to venting and storing the battery separately.

ANY equipment up a hill may be open to damage/theft regardless of how its powered. Without knowing the location, it's not really practical to speculate which system will draw the most attention. After all, there will a pole there anyway for the antenna. Assuming that permission has been acquired from the landowner(?), then a simple fence will keep curious hands off the equipment.

I reckon damage to the panels to be the biggest concern.

Godskitchen, don't be put off by the negatives. Most potential problems can be overcome. If i listened to those who said the way i brought BB to my locality wouldn't work, then for 2 years, I and 4 "neighbours" would not have had BB until Eircom came to town.

godskitchen

Thanks for the words of support dude. The way I look at it the hard work has been done, as in the tech for the wireless connection, tech for the DSL. All I have to do is reflect it.

The land is mine, so no problem in terms of permission. As for a pole, I really do not think it has to be very tall, the site is close to 400m above sea level and does not to clear any obsticals to see Site1 or Site3. I was thinking of only having it on a 4ft pole at most. Even with that I intend to make it blend in as much as I can.

Cheers again guys for the info and support.

KeRbDoG

To add, you don't need to go down the route of a routerboard. Why not just use a Linksys WRT54G router? Cheap, proven and you can underclock it to save power.
Looks like the most difficult part of your setup will be the remote power - did some searching and it looks like an expensive option if your gonna go with something off the shelf. Something like this would do the job just fine - http://news.cnet.com/2300-11392_3-6204393-1.html?tag=mncol;txt

Any streams near the location you want to put a repeat station? A mini-hydro generator would be as cheap as chips and would always work once the stream is moving
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/06/bucketborne_hydroelectric.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aidg/2381538707/
No need for the inverters etc, a simple 12V DC generator would be easily doable IMO

bushy...

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Godskitchen, don't be put off by the negatives. Most potential problems can be overcome. If i listened to those who said the way i brought BB to my locality wouldn't work, then for 2 years, I and 4 "neighbours" would not have had BB until Eircom came to town.

Must've been a really happy moment when it all worked despite all the "experts" .
I'm not being negative at all btw, i'd love to hear that the OPs setup comes to life too.

godskitchen wrote: »

Thanks for the words of support dude. The way I look at it the hard work has been done, as in the tech for the wireless connection, tech for the DSL. All I have to do is reflect it.

The land is mine, so no problem in terms of permission. As for a pole, I really do not think it has to be very tall, the site is close to 400m above sea level and does not to clear any obsticals to see Site1 or Site3. I was thinking of only having it on a 4ft pole at most. Even with that I intend to make it blend in as much as I can.

Cheers again guys for the info and support.

Sounds like you are on the pigs back , basically just a bit of power , plant a pole n happy surfing.

If you are going solar , buy a charge controller that can handle solar + another input for later.

godskitchen

bushy... wrote: »

Must've been a really happy moment when it all worked despite all the "experts" .
I'm not being negative at all btw, i'd love to hear that the OPs setup comes to life too.



Sounds like you are on the pigs back , basically just a bit of power , plant a pole n happy surfing.

If you are going solar , buy a charge controller that can handle solar + another input for later.

I came across charge controllers during my research over the last few days, looks to be a must for any solar/wind project.

If the project does not go ahead, for one reason or another, I do still intend to do a solar/wind project. Doing the research over the last few days has made me look at things a bit differently.

There is some what of a gale blowing outside right now and I keep thinking to myself 'All that energy going to waste'........