Why I'm going to vote Labour

Kevster

Hi,

Well, read the title. Fianna Fáil? - I'm sick of them and we need a change. They've done a lot of good, but also a lot of bad. Fianna Gael? - They have a terrible leader with no charisma and I never know what their policies are. Labour? - I like them because Éamon Gilmore always seems like he's going to explode when addressing the dáil!

Kevin

Bottle_of_Smoke

I did vote for them previously, but I'm very happy you've made that decision.

I myself will also vote fine gael now because I think that will help labour get into power.

Melange

Kevster wrote: »

Fianna Gael? - They have a terrible leader with no charisma and I never know what their policies are.

There's a reasonably substantial list of recent policies on www.finegael.ie

Labour? - I like them because Éamon Gilmore always seems like he's going to explode when addressing the dáil!

As effective an attribute as that might be in opposition at a time like this, I'm not so sure it would make for an effective statesman in government,

zootroid

I can never understand the arguement about Enda Kenny having no charisma. Not only do I think it's not very important, but I don't think many TDs have charisma. Is Cowen charismatic?

What I want in a TD / Taoiseach is someone who is competent and honest. FF have shown they are anything but these things. I think FG at least deserve a chance. But the status quo cannot remain. Cowen, Coughlan and Lenihan all strike me as being out of their depth. Apart from some very short term measures to try address the budget deficit, I have yet to see anything from them to help get Ireland back on track in the medium/long term.

jimmycrackcorm

Kevster wrote: »

Hi,

Labour? - I like them because Éamon Gilmore always seems like he's going to explode when addressing the dáil!

Kevin

Ah - the populist vote strikes again.

Sully

Eamon Gilmore is a terrible leader, Pat Rabbite was better then him. I dont think he is that good of a speaker in the Dail at all. Labour seem to be the "winging party" in government coming up with NOTHING. No plans, just all talk. Joan Burton was on TV3 a few months ago before the budget and refused point blank to offer any hint of what they would do if in government. Instead she just moaned and windged at the government. Right now is not a time for moaning, its a time for offer real alternative and change to the people of Ireland who seem to be crying out for someone else to take over. In additon to the blundering mess the party seem to be lately, they can not be trusted in my opinion. I think they will do ANYTHING to get into government and if that means joining up with Finna Fail they will. Is it any wonder why are they refusing to comment on it for so long.

Fine Gael on the other hand have actually came up with plans, the latest includes a dramatic reform of our health service. They not only point out flaws, their shock and anger but they actually hit home with their points and offer real change. Some of the people on the bench for FG offer real hope while Labour just doesnt seem to be offering anything. They get so much media attention but offer so little besides complaining. Their leader might not be Barrack Obama or Bertie Ahern but I do feel that he offers a change and can lead his party into government without rocking the boat. Unlike Cowen, who is unable to stedy his boat at all. I think he is a very good speaker at times but often comes across slightly "wooden" as the common term goes. But deep down inside he is a decent leader and offers decent change which is what we need.

I would hate to see them leading the country, or in government by themselves.

r0nanf

Sully wrote: »

Joan Burton was on TV3 a few months ago before the budget and refused point blank to offer any hint of what they would do if in government.

A few months ago, exactly. Did FG have any concrete plans a few months ago? Nobody did. I also saw Simon Coveney on the same show a few nights later doing the exact same thing. It's called "letting the government drown"...

Sully wrote: »

Fine Gael on the other hand have actually came up with plans, the latest includes a dramatic reform of our health service.

The latest which was published on Monday. I think its a hugely positive step towards a new health system, but Labour have been actively promoting a universal system for years. I also thought that their budget submission was pretty good.

Sully wrote: »

I would hate to see them leading the country, or in government by themselves.

Well they're a sure bet to be in the next government with either FF or FG so buckle up! They are the only serious party that offer anything remotely left wing, and people have seen of late where populism/centrism gets us.

Serenity Now!

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Ah - the populist vote strikes again.

Never the case here. Irish people, well those that bother their jacksies actually voting, tend to vote on local issues ie. whatever the local polly can do for them. TDs still meet the minions in 'clinics' at the local boozer in this country.

The country is doomed to coalition governments for this and the next generation at least.

Driseog

Are Fine Gael not just Fianna Fáil in disguise? If Labour are to get in they need to start thinking about a coalition of left-minded parties or have they forgotten what they stand for? Fine Fáil, I mean Gael, just want to use them to get their hands on the prize.

Sully

r0nanf wrote: »

A few months ago, exactly. Did FG have any concrete plans a few months ago? Nobody did. I also saw Simon Coveney on the same show a few nights later doing the exact same thing. It's called "letting the government drown"...

Its something that she has always been at. FG, to the best of my recollection, did submit a plan of action and happily spoke about it on radio etc. It may have been TodayFM that Enda Kenny was on and both the listener and commentators applauded Kenny & Co. for being honest and upfront while not giving the gory details so "letting the government drown". Labour on the other hand did make a contribution but was very closed up about it.

The latest which was published on Monday. I think its a hugely positive step towards a new health system, but Labour have been actively promoting a universal system for years. I also thought that their budget submission was pretty good.

I havent heard very much from Labour in terms of their party plans. Lately it seems they just want to have a go at the government rather then offer anything in terms of change.

Well they're a sure bet to be in the next government with either FF or FG so buckle up! They are the only serious party that offer anything remotely left wing, and people have seen of late where populism/centrism gets us.

So your happy for them to go in with FF? I cant see Labour being in government on their own, or in with another party with Glimore leading the ship. Labour are, in my view, not a strong alternative. If anything they are a party that just "wants to get their hands on the prize". Happily jump into bed with any party that will give them power.

Whatever about them going into power with FG, not on their own please.

Tech3

I cant see any party doing much for the country at the moment. I looked at all the proposals for the budget but I wasnt impressed. As much as I hate FF they have probably done the right thing in this budget. It was hard but people need to get real now. Theres no point complaining about whats done before.

Lets face it. Theres no alternative to the magnificent three bandwagon in this country. Judging by all the budget proposals in coming up to the budget I would go with FF. Labour or FG dont have the balls to make any harsh decisions that the IMF could well be doing in the future.

Driseog

And lets not forget at the last general election FG and Labour had the same spending spree and low tax intentions as FF so it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference who came in, they would have still fcuked it up.

Pride Fighter

Good man OP. Labour seem to be offering a real alternative unlike FG who are just spouting out the same rubbish the PD's were. How many PD's have they taken in of late? Too many. I'd have given FG a lower preference but not now, especially with their horrible education and health proposals.

Lizzykins

I'll definitely be voting Labour sooner rather than later I hope! I think the next govt will be Fine Gael/Labour. Fianna Fail will be wiped out all going well.

Saabdub

The last time Labour were given a mandate to change the status quo in 1992 they went into Government with Fianna Fail. There's no guarantee they wouldn't do it gain.

Sully

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Good man OP. Labour seem to be offering a real alternative unlike FG who are just spouting out the same rubbish the PD's were. How many PD's have they taken in of late? Too many. I'd have given FG a lower preference but not now, especially with their horrible education and health proposals.

Health? Horrible proposal?! How?

Its worked before and others are considering it - whats so horrible about it over here? Its not like the HSE system is working. Education - I think you will find FG wouldnt be throwing away money on prefabs and lack of interest in developing schools. Iv heard crazy storys at the doorsteps from people telling me their education/health related horror storys. They seem to offer a better alternative on getting students to contribute fees wise.

turgon

But Sully people will make money out of our health!!!!!!!! Yes, they will provide better services and extremely little cost difference but that doesnt matter because ... em ... erm ... Workers of the World UNITE!!

mewso

Saabdub wrote: »

The last time Labour were given a mandate to change the status quo in 1992 they went into Government with Fianna Fail. There's no guarantee they wouldn't do it gain.

The last time is the very reason I would expect them not to go into Government with FF. Just remember they were decimated in the election when they came out of the coalition. I've been a Labour Supporter all my life but if they go into Government with FF again I'm done with them like I'm done with most politicians in this country. Unfortunately politics here is stuck right in the middle of the road (including Labour) with nobody willing to step up and make really brave decisions anymore unless market research tells them it won't lose them votes.

brianthebard

I'm so sick of hearing people discuss the different parties merits based solely on their leaders. How about some ideological positions every now and again?

Sully

musician wrote: »

The last time is the very reason I would expect them not to go into Government with FF. Just remember they were decimated in the election when they came out of the coalition. I've been a Labour Supporter all my life but if they go into Government with FF again I'm done with them like I'm done with most politicians in this country. Unfortunately politics here is stuck right in the middle of the road (including Labour) with nobody willing to step up and make really brave decisions anymore unless market research tells them it won't lose them votes.

Okay, so they got hit because of what they did. Now the time is coming back and the situation is looking possible. After everything, Labour seem hesitant to rule out going into government with FF. They wont rule it in or out, same with FG IIRC.

Thats one of the many reasons people are hesitant I guess.

Kevster

zootroid wrote: »

I can never understand the arguement about Enda Kenny having no charisma. Not only do I think it's not very important, but I don't think many TDs have charisma. Is Cowen charismatic?

What I want in a TD / Taoiseach is someone who is competent and honest. FF have shown they are anything but these things. I think FG at least deserve a chance. But the status quo cannot remain. Cowen, Coughlan and Lenihan all strike me as being out of their depth. Apart from some very short term measures to try address the budget deficit, I have yet to see anything from them to help get Ireland back on track in the medium/long term.

Good point dude, but how can you gauge who's honest and who isn't? I simply don't have confidence in any of them anymore, and feel that I'd do a better job myself. I've been monitoring politics in the US, UK, and Ireland for a few years now and it just seems to be the same bull**** over and over again:

One party is elected, and the the other parties criticise them. Public opinion shifts, and then another party gets elected and then THEY get slated by the other parties. Isn't it just boring?

Sully

Kevster wrote: »

Good point dude, but how can you gauge who's honest and who isn't? I simply don't have confidence in any of them anymore, and feel that I'd do a better job myself. I've been monitoring politics in the US, UK, and Ireland for a few years now and it just seems to be the same bull**** over and over again:

One party is elected, and the the other parties criticise them. Public opinion shifts, and then another party gets elected and then THEY get slated by the other parties. Isn't it just boring?

Well considering FF have been in power for a very long time in this government with very little chance for the opposition to prove themselves, I think that puts to bed most of your argument bar the fact its boring. Obviouslly opposition partys in all walks of like will do things differently - including in business.

Lets take the US for example.. Republicans ran the country for a long time and really damaged the country. Public opinion shifted towards the Democrats as they felt they could offer real change with Obama - and so far in the first 100 days, Obama has fixed a lot of the damaged caused by the Republicans and is on course to fixing a whole lot of other problems the country is in. The americans finally saw that the opposition could offer real change and have given them a chance. So far so good.

Its a lot more boring having the same government running the country for long periods of time. It would be a lot more boring if the opposition agreed with everything they did and just sat back happy as larry.

thebigcheese22

Sully wrote: »

Okay, so they got hit because of what they did. Now the time is coming back and the situation is looking possible. After everything, Labour seem hesitant to rule out going into government with FF. They wont rule it in or out, same with FG IIRC.

Thats one of the many reasons people are hesitant I guess.

I think this slogan sums it up - 'We are not Fianna Fail, we are not Fine Gael, we are Labour'

If you think Eamon Gilmore would go into coalition with Fianna Fail under Cowen then you are delusional. I'd be of the view that if we enter government, we should go into a coalition that will allow us to enact as much of our policies as possible. However, I don't think we should go into power with FF at the next GE, as there would be too much anger at us for putting that shower back in power. FF are in such a state nowadays that we could really put a gun to their head but I just don't think it would benefit the party at this time.

Gilmore has reiterated a number of times that he doesn't want this political culture in Ireland to remain a two and a half party system, he wants Labour to match and overtake FF and FG - and I believe if anyone is in a position to do that, he is.

And for those who say he's a so so speaker...

Kevster

That's my next vote, right there! Look at him go! He's the best of a bad bunch really, although I can't actually think of much 'bad' about him right now. Simply put, I don't know much about him. However, now that I've decided Im' going to vote Labour, I'm sure that I'll be paying much more attention to what he and his cronies are saying.

Pride Fighter

The big cheese just posted what IMO is the greatest Irish political speech ever. I have heard it loads of times but always fast forward to the last 5 minutes. He finishes so powerfully. "We are not Fianna Fail, or Fine Gael, We are Labour"
and "sea, is feidir linne freisin". Brilliant man, hopefully our next Taoiseach.

Boskowski

brianthebard wrote: »

How about some ideological positions every now and again?

I didn't realize we had parties with 'ideological positions'. Seriously. I mean I'm sure they do have them but it's hard to tell as this doesn't seem to be something parties define themselves with here (in Ireland). At least not in the mainstream media. Or is it that they're really all the same ideologically and the only difference is about how to bring the economy back on track and the banks back into business?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

Driseog wrote: »

Are Fine Gael not just Fianna Fáil in disguise? QUOTE]


no

Satan is fianna fail in disguise

Kevster

DaDumTish wrote: »

Driseog wrote: »

Are Fine Gael not just Fianna Fáil in disguise? QUOTE]


no

Satan is fianna fail in disguise

You're both wrong: An Garda Síochána are really the devil(s) in disguise (Each police station has the prefix '666' in it's phone number).

Kevin

The_Minister

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Good man OP. Labour seem to be offering a real alternative unlike FG who are just spouting out the same rubbish the PD's were. How many PD's have they taken in of late? Too many. I'd have given FG a lower preference but not now, especially with their horrible education and health proposals.

Labour have taken a fair share of ex-PDs too.

thebigcheese22

The_Minister wrote: »

Labour have taken a fair share of ex-PDs too.

If so, its a far lower amount then Fine Gael or Fianna Fail. I can't think of any high profile PD switching to Labour but I'm open to names. I'd say a lot of the members who valued the PD's social liberalism over their economics neo-liberalism will find their best home in Labour tbh. Hopefully a lot of Green members will switch to Labour as they realise that the Greens are no longer a leftist party, without any principles.



To the OP, if ya want you can PM me and I'l send ya some info as a Labour member...If ya join you won't be disappointed I promise!!

ninty9er

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I myself will also vote fine gael now because I think that will help labour get into power.

If you want to see Labour in power vote Labour, not anyone else. I never understand this logic. Fine Gael transfers rarely return to Labour but Labour transfers generally break down in equal measure for FF and FG, meaning voting Labour, then FG is more likely to get you what you want.

The_Minister

ninty9er wrote: »

If you want to see Labour in power vote Labour, not anyone else. I never understand this logic. Fine Gael transfers rarely return to Labour but Labour transfers generally break down in equal measure for FF and FG, meaning voting Labour, then FG is more likely to get you what you want.

But Labour could go in with FF, whereas FG won't.

ninty9er

The_Minister wrote: »

But Labour could go in with FF, whereas FG won't.

Generalisation alert:

FG transfers don't go to Labour, they go to the 2nd FG candidate. Labour can't form a government with FF if all transfers left go to FG and FF don't have enough TD in the Dáil.

Liam Byrne

The_Minister wrote: »

But Labour could go in with FF, whereas FG won't.

If they did it would be the end of them, too.

Some wake of destruction, there......PDs, now Greens, next Labour ?

No, I'd say most people will be looking for written guarantees about THE PARTY (and not pulling a fast one like Sargent did about "not leading the Greens into Govt with FF") but a complete and irrevocable guarantee that Labour wouldn't sell us out if the numbers went a particular way.

I was considering Labour until I read that post and the previous one reminding us about 1992; now I'm going to hang tough until I hear an unambiguous guarantee......

fenris

The only difference that I can see between FF and FG is that FF are better at elections, apart from that, there is nothing significant between them in practical terms that I can see.

The greens have proven themselves to be cringing non-entities hanging on for power sake, all mouth before the election and not even a whimper afterwards.

SF seem to be able to do things on a local level but their national level politics is not any place that I would like to go.

That leaves labour as a party or the independents neither of which can be as bad as the current crowd.

I can't undstand why people think doing the same thing in every election will yield different results!

irish_bob

fenris wrote: »

The only difference that I can see between FF and FG is that FF are better at elections, apart from that, there is nothing significant between them in practical terms that I can see.

The greens have proven themselves to be cringing non-entities hanging on for power sake, all mouth before the election and not even a whimper afterwards.

SF seem to be able to do things on a local level but their national level politics is not any place that I would like to go.

That leaves labour as a party or the independents neither of which can be as bad as the current crowd.

I can't undstand why people think doing the same thing in every election will yield different results!

while the differences between the centrists parties of FF or FG are subtle , thier is a difference in that FF are a populist party so they swing left or right according to which suits thier particular agenda at the time , presently they are facing left so as to suit the unions and public sector who they seem so slavish towards, they are also conscious of the power of those on wellfare right now

fine gael on the other hand are more or less ever so slightly centre right most of the time

neither have much in the way of idealogy although having an ounce would be ten times more than FF

brianthebard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If they did it would be the end of them, too.

Some wake of destruction, there......PDs, now Greens, next Labour ?

No, I'd say most people will be looking for written guarantees about THE PARTY (and not pulling a fast one like Sargent did about "not leading the Greens into Govt with FF") but a complete and irrevocable guarantee that Labour wouldnt' sell us out if the numbers went a particular way.

I was considering Labour until I read that post and the previous one reminding us about 1992; now I'm going to hang tough until I hear an unamiguous guarantee......

I think I would still vote for Labour if they were to go in with Fianna Fail in the next government, because the size of the Labour segment of government would be such that FF would have to listen to them, and they couldn't afford to dump Labour without dissolving govt. This is the principle reason I feel that FF went with the Green/PD/Independent option, rather than Labour, because FF can afford to lose any of those three groups and still maintain a majority, meaning they aren't beholden to any of them.

fenris wrote: »

That leaves labour as a party or the independents neither of which can be as bad as the current crowd.

I can't undstand why people think doing the same thing in every election will yield different results!

Independents are part of the current crowd surely?