After The Bus Strike

Eggball

Hi,

I'm a driver from Harristown depot and since I don't have the kind of access to the media that the likes of Cliona Ni Fhatharta has, I thought I'd just do what I can to explain what happened to the buses this week.

The first thing you need to know is that, contrary to what you were told, the dispute was not about the reduction of running time on a single route. That was the spark, but sparks do no damage unless they land in a tinderbox. The tinderbox here is the management structure in Dublin Bus, and although this particular dispute has been settled, the tinderbox is still there and can ignite again.

There are 78 managers in Dublin Bus, doing work which could be covered by 25-30. This is partly a by-product of the Celtic Tiger years when government was going through money like a drunken duke. In the last twenty years, the operational managers in DB (the ones who actually run the garages) have increased by 350% for a fleet increase of 30%, ie, an expansion of the fleet from 800 to 1100 buses was accompanied by an increase in managers from 7 in 1990 to 32 today, all for a staff of about 2000 drivers, the bulk of DBs staff. That's just on the operational side. There are also seven managers controlling the maintenance section plus another 39 running the offices. Please bear in mind that not one of these jokers is pulling a salary of less than 100,000 euro per year, and that's just at the management entry level; most of them are nearer 150,000, plus bonus (and in case you're wondering, yes, they're all claiming bonuses this year, recession or no recession). It doesn't take a business genius to figure out that this is a ridiculously bloated and top-heavy structure and when the Tiger finally expired and the economic realities bit, one would reasonably assume that, cutbacks being necessary, the first thing to do would be to go through this ballast like Hitler went through Poland, saving (by my back of the envelope calculation) at least 5,000,000 euro per year, enough to keep maybe half a dozen routes open. I'm pretty sure that's what Michael O'Leary, the god of the market, (except when he quotes you a penny fare and actually charges you 100 euro) would do, but it's not what Dublin Bus did.

Instead, they tried to sack sixty drivers, they cut a ganseyload of routes, they sold 100 buses and they attempted to cut drivers wages. They did this not to save the company or save the services, but to save themselves, and in order to save themselves they were willing to see drivers out on the labour, pensioners hoofing it to the post office for their pensions, massive tranches of publicly owned vehicles shunted into the private sector for a song and routes cut all over the city. However, they succeeded in what they set out to do: they kept those 78 managers in those 25 jobs and if, in order to do that, you find yourself walking or cycling or jogging to work (or, indeed, the dole office), console yourself with the thought that it's paying for many happy holidays for the lucky 78. Last Sunday morning, one individual found that the thought was not enough to brighten his day, and in a fit of pique, threw his running board back over the counter and sparked a walkout among angry and disgusted drivers who couldn't go on kidding themselves that they weren't being bent over a chair in order to preserve the biggest sinecure outside of the HSE. And you shouldn't go on kidding yourselves either.

You won't have heard these figures from any media outlet because today, to be a journalist, all you need is a blackberry and a bar stool, and with these you can pass off your alcoholic opinions as though they were the truth, since anything that is repeated loud enough and often enough becomes the truth by default. You don't need to actually get off your backside and go out and find out the kind of thing I'm telling you here because 'everybody knows' about bus drivers with their jobs for life, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Just remember that the real root cause of this dispute (the assumption that the production staff - ie, the drivers - must always sacrifice and that you - the public - must always give up services where necessary to keep 78 feather-bedded managers in clover) has not been addressed. In the next six weeks or so, you'll be getting a clatter of smiling political candidates to your door for the local and European elections. You can either take the information I've just given you and use it to your own advantage, or you can go down the pub and whinge about those f***ing bus drivers - just like a journalist.

John Mason

That's great but can you tell me why my bus didnt turn up this morning? its the 40C is it still on strike?

do you have any idea when we will have a normal service again?

Also where do i apply for my compenstation of taxi fares and lost of wages

thanks

_blank_

I'm moving this to C&T

faceman

Strikes that have a major impact on the public's lives never win support, particularly unofficial action without public notice. If anything, that has the opposite effect of gaining sympathy.

I sympathise with what is going on in Dublin Bus, its no different that other public service. If you want Joe Public behind you then you take appropriate action that is within the law and union regulations. Work to rule would be more appropriate.

Why cant drivers refuse to work overtime instead? Why did drivers feel it necessary to not update their paying customers they were striking? Why was the appropriate union action not taken?

Tom Dunne

To be honest, this reeks of the standard "Management vs. Us" that is so typical of the Pubic Sector/Semi-State/Civil Service/Dreamland Employment Co. (and I'm speaking as an ex-Public Sector employee).

Nobody is doubting for a minute that those at the middle- and upper-management of the aforementioned organisations are varyingly incompetent, overpaid, indifferent and disconnected from reality. But the fact of the matter is that employees of Dublin Bus engaged in an unsanctioned, illegal strike that served nobody, least of all themselves. The blame game does not work here.

Dublin Bus employees in Harristown have shown themselves to be arrogant, militant, aggressive and inconsiderate to the general public. By their actions they have obliterated any shred of sympathy anyone might have had for them.

That is the issue here.

Jip

Agree with Mister Dunne above. Interestingly one of the ring leaders is a member of the NBRU who aren't too happy with his action under the guise of the Busworkers Action Group. Plus the twat is also a member of the socialist party who is running for in the local elections, says it all really. Sock it to the man and all that crap they believe.

_blank_

Tom Dunne, did you cover this issue on your radio show?

Tom Dunne

Des wrote: »

Tom Dunne, did you cover this issue on your radio show?

Don't YOU start.

Calina

Nostradamus wrote: »

(that was worth a banning, beleive me)

I'm glad you think so. Seven day holiday.

________________________________________

EDIT:

Before this thread gets too contentious I will make the following recommendations - I have a low level tolerance for messing - this much should be clear by now.

As this is a clear warning about on thread behaviour do not be surprised if misbehaviour skips infractions and goes straight to bans.

Jip

Odd that Eggball hasn't returned. Maybe he's upset that he hasn't received all the pats on the back and congrats he was expecting ?

RayM

faceman wrote: »

Why cant drivers refuse to work overtime instead? Why did drivers feel it necessary to not update their paying customers they were striking? Why was the appropriate union action not taken?

Or better still - agree to drive the buses, but refuse to take fares. That way, the decision to leave passengers by the roadside is down to Dublin Bus and not its disgruntled employees. I have a lot of sympathy for their predicament (and I'm sure a lot of others do too), but rightly or wrongly, that sympathy goes right out the window when their strike unexpectedly messes up my day.

crocro

Average pay of a Dublin bus driver after 4 years is 38K. Less than many other public sector workers but still way above the market rate. As Ireland heads towards 17% unemployment, we can't afford to pay people 38k to drive a bus.

A lot of bus passengers have had pay cuts and are delighted to still have a job. They will do anything within reason at work that they're asked to do. They stay late without being paid extra. They cannot sympathise with drivers who have used them as bargaining chips.

Some form of outsourcing of bus services is now a financial necessity. A chunk of routes should be handed over to someone like Veolia to be run at a fraction of the cost by drivers on minimum wage. 20K is plenty for driving a bus up and down the road. There would be a queue of people willing to do it at that salary.

Calina

crocro wrote: »

Some form of outsourcing of bus services is now a financial necessity. A chunk of routes should be handed over to someone like Veolia to be run at a fraction of the cost by drivers on minimum wage.

Ideas like this make my blood run cold. One of the key issues in this country is that a lot of people don't value very essential work. YOu seem to imply that people should be paid comparatively little and still have responsibility for a lot of lives.

I am not sure I buy into that idea. As for outsourcing of bus services, I think you'll find the more effective public transport systems are places like Paris, Munich, Belgium and not Dublin. The difference - I think - is most people recognise that they are essential services and not political/ideological footballs.

Here, however...

Cleopatra12

Eggballs figures for the number of managers are incorrect. I think he is getting confused between managers and people who are executives. Big difference. There is no way he can know how much managers and executives are being paid unless he has a copy of the rates of pay for staff.

The executive team are not in receipt of bonuses in 2009. They cannot be justified. I like the way he never mentioned that Drivers bonuses have not been cut... Ask him about that!

there are a lot more than 2000 drivers employed by DB. In all other departments the plan is to cut staff by 10% so drivers have gotten off lightly. So far no driver has been let go.

Hmm, i wonder if OP is a baggie... sounds like it to me!

crocro

Calina wrote: »

As for outsourcing of bus services, I think you'll find the more effective public transport systems are places like Paris, Munich, Belgium and not Dublin.

IN fact RATP outsources some of its Paris bus routes to Connex. Connex pays drivers about 17K a year. RATP pays its drivers 19-22K a year.

Bus drivers are not a special case, most public sector workers are paid far more than they would earn in a neighbouring country. Nor is it their fault that this has happened - the government agreed to overpay them.

It's not politically feasible to hand out 50% pay cuts to public sector staff. That's why outsourcing is looking like the answer.

If the French value essential work so much more than the Irish then why do we pay our bus drivers more than the French pay their teachers?

RayM

crocro wrote: »

A chunk of routes should be handed over to someone like Veolia to be run at a fraction of the cost by drivers on minimum wage. 20K is plenty for driving a bus up and down the road. There would be a queue of people willing to do it at that salary.

Lovely bit of PD ideology there. However, let's just Ignore the obvious unfairness of paying somebody such a meagre sum of money to do a job which carries such a high level of responsibility (and quite a bit of risk too), and think about the practicalities...

To a certain extent, you're absolutely right. There would undoubtedly be a queue of people willing to drive buses for the minimum wage. However, few would be willing to do it for very long or as a career. As soon as something better-paid comes along (i.e. most jobs), they'd be gone. As a result, Veolia (or whoever) would have an extremely high turnover of staff and you'd permanently have a lot of inexperienced bus drivers on the roads, and services would suffer for it. If you pay peanuts, etc...

dub_commuter

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

Eggballs figures for the number of managers are incorrect. I think he is getting confused between managers and people who are executives. Big difference. There is no way he can know how much managers and executives are being paid unless he has a copy of the rates of pay for staff.

Whatever way you try and dress it up, whether you call them all executives, all management, or a mixture of both, between them all there is still too many of them, and too many jobs for a boys.

The executive team are not in receipt of bonuses in 2009. They cannot be justified. I like the way he never mentioned that Drivers bonuses have not been cut... Ask him about that!

But I can be the drivers bonuses are a damn sight less than what others re being paid. Also, need I mention, drivers are paid to drive, Management are paid to manage, judging by CIE's last set of accounts and their performance in so many areas, which means they can't even get a new timetable up on the bus stops which have had changed timetables on Sunday, I'd say that was a pretty damning probloem of management wouldn't you.

there are a lot more than 2000 drivers employed by DB. In all other departments the plan is to cut staff by 10% so drivers have gotten off lightly. So far no driver has been let go.!

Without drivers there would be no bus service. There are 1,200 buses in the fleet right now, before the recent withdrawls, I don't think two dirvers to every bus is ridicolously high do you? The fact is there are people in management who do jobs which could be done by less people than it takes at the moment.

Unless you advise people going over the 48 hour working time directive or cutting drivers up in half or doing double shifts how exactly can you say there are too many drivers.

The fact that management know nothing about running a bus company, on vastly inflated wages despite their failures over years to modernise, thats why Dublin Bus is in this state in the first place, but they always hold onto their jobs. If I managed a company the way Dublin Bus was I'd rightly be fired by now rather than hanging on like certain people for the last 40 years.

Calina

crocro wrote: »

If the French value essential work so much more than the Irish then why do we pay our bus drivers more than the French pay their teachers?

Cost of living differences. It costs less to live in Paris than it does in Dublin.

Cleopatra12

dub_commuter wrote: »

Whatever way you try and dress it up, whether you call them all executives, all management, or a mixture of both, between them all there is still too many of them, and too many jobs for a boys.



But I can be the drivers bonuses are a damn sight less than what others re being paid. Also, need I mention, drivers are paid to drive, Management are paid to manage, judging by CIE's last set of accounts and their performance in so many areas, which means they can't even get a new timetable up on the bus stops which have had changed timetables on Sunday, I'd say that was a pretty damning probloem of management wouldn't you.



Without drivers there would be no bus service. There are 1,200 buses in the fleet right now, before the recent withdrawls, I don't think two dirvers to every bus is ridicolously high do you? The fact is there are people in management who do jobs which could be done by less people than it takes at the moment.

Unless you advise people going over the 48 hour working time directive or cutting drivers up in half or doing double shifts how exactly can you say there are too many drivers.

The fact that management know nothing about running a bus company, on vastly inflated wages despite their failures over years to modernise, thats why Dublin Bus is in this state in the first place, but they always hold onto their jobs. If I managed a company the way Dublin Bus was I'd rightly be fired by now rather than hanging on like certain people for the last 40 years.

Executive bonuses are paid as per performance... if there is no performance (which obv ther is not at the mo due to pax fall off) no bonuses are paid.

i'll tell you one thing, you have no clue as to what there is entailed in running a bus company. If you think it is so easy, you come throw in your CV and give it a lash. You have a very simplisitc view as to how it sould be run. As you have stated on numerous occasions, you are a commuter therfore you have no inside detail to the day to day runnings of DB. You have also stated that you only have second hand information so dont tell me that there are too many of any member of staff.You have not got a clue regarding the day to day running of a garage or running in HQ or the level or volume of work that is entailed in all loations...

Please note I also never said there were too many bus drivers!

Cleopatra12

Oh and regarding jobs for the boys..... well how many fathers and sons, families, husbands and wifes are working as drivers,maintenance staff etc .... plenty of those i can tell ya! Not just in the higher echelons as you imply!

meanmachine3

crocro wrote: »

Average pay of a Dublin bus driver after 4 years is 38K. Less than many other public sector workers but still way above the market rate. As Ireland heads towards 17% unemployment, we can't afford to pay people 38k to drive a bus

thats funny i dont remember :rolleyes: ever earning over 35K let alone the average of 38K you quote croc.

crocro wrote: »

A lot of bus passengers have had pay cuts and are delighted to still have a job. They will do anything within reason at work that they're asked to do. They stay late without being paid extra. They cannot sympathise with drivers who have used them as bargaining chips.

bargaining chips, is that what you call it. so from now on if we vote to strike we're going to use the public as bargaining chips, if we have a ballot for a work to rule we're going to use the public as a bargaining chip. ohhh croc surely you can come up with some better than a "bargaining chip".
i'm getting fed up explaining myself here and on the other thread.
ok ok ok ok
i hold my hand up ,i'm a greedy selfish bastard that earns over €80K + as a bus driver, couldn't give a rats arse about what you tossers think or want from a public transport company. now i own up plead guilty to all charges and accusations made against us and admit to have been stringing everyone all along,oops maybe i should've said me instead of us ,my bad

Cleopatra12

meanmachine3 wrote: »

i hold my hand up ,i'm a greedy selfish bastard that earns over €80K + as a bus driver, couldn't give a rats arse about what you tossers think or want from a public transport company. now i own up plead guilty to all charges and accusations made against us and admit to have been stringing everyone all along,oops maybe i should've said me instead of us ,my bad

LOL,never a truer word spoken!!

paulm17781

Calina wrote: »

Cost of living differences. It costs less to live in Paris than it does in Dublin.

Really? I'd have thought Paris was more expensive.

Calina

paulm17781 wrote: »

Really? I'd have thought Paris was more expensive.

Our rents are falling now but our one bed apartments were more expensive than what some of my friends were paying for one bed apartments in Paris. Public transport marginally less expensive. Better and free health care. Cheaper groceries (by far).

Falling rents will make a difference in the balance though.

AlekSmart

The executive team are not in receipt of bonuses in 2009. They cannot be justified. I like the way he never mentioned that Drivers bonuses have not been cut... Ask him about that!

I think,Cleopatra12,the situation re the BAC executive remuneration packages remains open to question.

AFAIR the issue was first broached on a Radio programme aired at the very beginning of the "Survival Plan" process when,during the course of an interview with Cliodhna nic Fearharta,the interviewer threw in a wobbler..to wit....

"All of the cuts mantioned are at the lower levels in the company,Drivers,Maintenance set....are Management taking any cuts in their income?"

Now I was actually listening to this interview,but for the life of me I cannot recall the station or the programme.

The interesting bit for me was the 30 seconds of silence which followed the question,before Cliodhna recovered her composure and retorted with a somewhat muted assurance that BAC Executives were taking a 10% cut in their bonus package...some have since reclassified that as their "Benefits" package....but to my ears Ms Nic Fheartha`s initial reference was to a Bonus package.

I must confess that this DID surprise me as I was unaware that BAC actually involved itself in such schemes.
There is also reference here to the Drivers Bonus Schemes which deserve clarification.
BAC in common with many large employers and certainly with large employers of Drivers operate two small scale incentive based schemes.
One is an attendance based scheme which rewards a "Clean Sheet" in terms of absences.
The other is the long running Safe Driving Awards scheme which attempts to increase and promote safety awareness by rewarding Accident Free drivers with small scale annual awards.

It should be stressed that BOTH such schemes fully comply with the increasingly strict Revenue Commissioners guidelines on such payments.
It needs also be stressed that not ALL drivers would qualify in any given year as a couple of days off-sick or a minor scrape will automatically disqualify any Driver from the benefits of each scheme.

Posters can rest easy in their beds tonight secure in the knowledge that the BAC "Bonus" schemes for wages grade staff do not in any way resemble the long-service payments to members of Dàil Èireann

OOps...having just checked my last Pay-Slip I must offer an apology and admit to also being in receipt of a "Service Pay" element of 1.90 Per Week....

Im also not quite so certain as to the accuracy of the following Cleo....

Executive bonuses are paid as per performance... if there is no performance (which obv ther is not at the mo due to pax fall off) no bonuses are paid.

There are several disciplines of Executive within BAC and measurement of their performance is not as straightforward as many might think.

For example,the phased withdrawal of 120 vehicles and their subsequent storage/disposal in a structured and well planned manner which manages to recoup some level of asset value may well entitle the Chief Engineer or the Chief Accountant to a bonus payment if that process of itself can be shown to save the company money in the Overall sense.

The problem with such Executive Bonus packages is that to the "Man on the 19 Bus" their payment may not be as easily explained.
If anybody queries me as to how I earned my Bonuses,I can produce documentary evidence of another year of Accident Free Driving or in the case of Attendance,another year in which I took NO Sick Days....QED surely ?

givyjoe81

AlekSmart wrote: »

I think,Cleopatra12,the situation re the BAC executive remuneration packages remains open to question.

AFAIR the issue was first broached on a Radio programme aired at the very beginning of the "Survival Plan" process when,during the course of an interview with Cliodhna nic Fearharta,the interviewer threw in a wobbler..to wit....

"All of the cuts mantioned are at the lower levels in the company,Drivers,Maintenance set....are Management taking any cuts in their income?"

Now I was actually listening to this interview,but for the life of me I cannot recall the station or the programme.

The interesting bit for me was the 30 seconds of silence which followed the question,before Cliodhna recovered her composure and retorted with a somewhat muted assurance that BAC Executives were taking a 10% cut in their bonus package...some have since reclassified that as their "Benefits" package....but to my ears Ms Nic Fheartha`s initial reference was to a Bonus package.

I must confess that this DID surprise me as I was unaware that BAC actually involved itself in such schemes.
There is also reference here to the Drivers Bonus Schemes which deserve clarification.
BAC in common with many large employers and certainly with large employers of Drivers operate two small scale incentive based schemes.
One is an attendance based scheme which rewards a "Clean Sheet" in terms of absences.
The other is the long running Safe Driving Awards scheme which attempts to increase and promote safety awareness by rewarding Accident Free drivers with small scale annual awards.

It should be stressed that BOTH such schemes fully comply with the increasingly strict Revenue Commissioners guidelines on such payments.
It needs also be stressed that not ALL drivers would qualify in any given year as a couple of days off-sick or a minor scrape will automatically disqualify any Driver from the benefits of each scheme.

Posters can rest easy in their beds tonight secure in the knowledge that the BAC "Bonus" schemes for wages grade staff do not in any way resemble the long-service payments to members of Dàil Èireann

OOps...having just checked my last Pay-Slip I must offer an apology and admit to also being in receipt of a "Service Pay" element of 1.90 Per Week....

Im also not quite so certain as to the accuracy of the following Cleo....



There are several disciplines of Executive within BAC and measurement of their performance is not as straightforward as many might think.

For example,the phased withdrawal of 120 vehicles and their subsequent storage/disposal in a structured and well planned manner which manages to recoup some level of asset value may well entitle the Chief Engineer or the Chief Accountant to a bonus payment if that process of itself can be shown to save the company money in the Overall sense.

The problem with such Executive Bonus packages is that to the "Man on the 19 Bus" their payment may not be as easily explained.
If anybody queries me as to how I earned my Bonuses,I can produce documentary evidence of another year of Accident Free Driving or in the case of Attendance,another year in which I took NO Sick Days....QED surely ?

For the love of god... Do you ALWAYS have to write an essay every time you post?!

AlekSmart

For the love of god... Do you ALWAYS have to write an essay every time you post?!

Sorry,I got an A in English in my Group Cert and it snowballed from there.....Plus it`s great for business when people take the time to read AND repost the entire missive !!