Length of time it takes for ex-N routes to be re-signed

G_R

I was in Monasterevin in Kildare recently and i saw that the R445 (old N7) is still signposted as N7 on pretty much all signs except the new ones on the Roundabouts at the actual M7 junction. This route was built how long ago? 6 or 7 years? surely its about time Laois and Kildare co co did something bout it, it has to be pretty confusing for tourists and non locals?

this contrasts with the Cashel to Cullahill M8, the old N8 signs were been changed to R693 (or R639 i forget) on every sign in the Urlingford area anyway, and i'm assuming that the trend has been continued in the rest of KK co co's jurisdiction, within 2 or 3 months if i remember correctly.

What was the time frame for sign renewal on other schemes throughout the country?

L1011

There are N9 RCSs on the Kilcullen in Naas still. The N9 was rerouted to the M9 in 1994!

Zoney

The R445 is still signposted as the N7 throughout Limerick city too, with green signs all the way to Ivan's Cross on the Ennis Road.

On the other hand the R526 (old N20) was properly resigned in Limerick, both in city and county.

There are still plenty of "N6" signs on the old N6 between Athlone and Kinnegad, the ones at the Kilmartin roundabout are clearly absolutely wrong!

Perhaps the criteria for updating is as simple as the old one had deteroriated to being useless before being replaced!

nordydan

Best is heading North from Balriggan, watch for the N1 signs for both Belfast and Dublin on the R132, the Belfast one now pointing in the wrong direction...:rolleyes:

icdg

MYOB wrote: »

There are N9 RCSs on the Kilcullen in Naas still. The N9 was rerouted to the M9 in 1994!

And better still, the RCS on the old N9 outbound at Naas is a vintage 1980s and is probably original from when the N9 was first signed. Not a lot of these about now.

Amtmann

On the point made about non locals getting confused when old, obsolete signage remains in situ: this is very true. I got lost around Athlone when I was up there a few weeks back.

With councils now going to some effort to place L road signs on many a random lane, it's astoishing and irritating that they don't take the old N signs down while they're at it. Has anyone ever contacted councils about it? Let me guess. You get the usual deadpan, terse, bare minimum, evasive civil service reply.

I would urge publicans to start stripping these signs from their posts and to hang them on pub walls or sell them to Irish Americans. No-one in the council will miss them, and they are so...quaint.

BluntGuy

As I have said before. It would be a good idea to have local signage replacement as a requirement in new road building projects, to ensure that it is done.

Our man in Havana

When the M8 opened from Cullahill to Cashel they had the speedlimit signs changed within a week. The other N8 signs took a few months.

Amtmann

Bond-007 wrote: »

The other N8 signs took a few months.

Have all the green signs been replaced between Cashel and Cullahill? I haven't driven the old road since the new road opened.

G_R

Furet wrote: »

Have all the green signs been replaced between Cashel and Cullahill? I haven't driven the old road since the new road opened.

ive only travelled that route from cullahill as far as horse and jockey and all are gone along that stretch anyway and speed has been reduced to 80km/h.

im assuming its the same as far as cashel

Amtmann

Yup. Someone did a very nice job re-signing the old N8 between Cullahill and Cashel:

murphaph

Furet wrote: »

Yup. Someone did a very nice job re-signing the old N8 between Cullahill and Cashel:

Great pics. More interesting to me that grand interurbans tbh. I'd love to see more good signage photographed and uploaded if anyone is in the area

That last pic shows a common phemonenon though....when the ADS shows the junction type, the warning sign can be omitted to keep signage clutter (and maintenance) down. It's recomended to omit it in the TSM in fact.

Signage in Ireland is improving at pace. Let's hope the recession doesn't slow it down too much.

G_R

murphaph wrote: »

Great pics. More interesting to me that grand interurbans tbh. I'd love to see more good signage photographed and uploaded if anyone is in the area

hmmmmmm, i spose i cud take my camera wit me nxt time i go for a walk.......

Amtmann

Must say, assuming Kilkenny and North Tipp county councils are responsible for the new R639 signage, this augers very well indeed for signage changes when new sections of the M9 and M7 open through these counties towards the end of the year.

I myself hail from South Tipp, the council of which is consistently proving itself to be...a disappointment in matters infrastructural. There's a local election coming up though, and I have emailed the councillors of both Cashel and Cahir something along these lines:

Dear Councillors X and Y
As someone who is strongly considering voting for A and B in the upcoming election, I feel obliged to query you, as a concerned local, about the state of directional signage and roadside maintenance in the area around Cahir town.

Firstly, the M8 is not properly signposted in Cahir town itself. In the town, arrows point the way to the "N8", using the old green signage. This is extremely misleading to non-locals, as it indicates that no motorway will be involved in the process of their journey to Cork or Dublin. As you know, certain drivers are intimidated by motorway driving, and other categories of driver are simply not allowed to use them. The new M8 is also inconsistently signed at the Clonmel end of the new N24 Cahir bypass, again with a green sign. I realise this might seem trivial, but it actually isn't. Non-locals that I have spoken to have been confused and disorientated by the contradictory signage one encounters around Cahir these days.

Secondly, the signage on the old N8 (now technically the R639) between Cahir and Kilbeheny is similarly misleading. The road is no longer the N8, yet it continues to be signed as such. Why? When the M8 opened between Cullahill and Cashel last December, the local authorities there installed new R639 signage within a few short months. Yet the same has not been done in South Tipp. I hope that you both, as councillors, appreciate that road signage in the areas around tourist towns needs to be maintained and updated; if it is not, businesses and tourism will suffer.

Thirdly, and very importantly, I wish to complain about the atrocious state of the entrance to Cahir town from the M8 junction 10 roundabout. This entrance, which was the original N8 prior to the opening of the first Cahir Bypass in 1991, is in an appalling state, both in terms of the road's surface and in terms of the roadside's physical appearance, which is extremely unsightly - weedy, brown, and generally unkempt. The new N24 bypass is also unsightly, and from what I've seen is simply a grassy eyesore, totally unplanted. You and your fellow councillors simply must be aware of the atrocious first impression that such a sight imparts to any visitor to the region. And again, signage in the area is outdated and misleading. This entrance must be considered an embarrasment for the town of Cahir.

I am aware that funds are tight. But you must also be aware that the maintenance of signage and landscaping on the roads leading to Cahir is not some sort of optional extra - it is simply essential if we are to attract tourists and passing trade to the town. Indeed, I would argue that such maintenance is not a cost, but an investment. I beseech you to raise this matter with your fellow councillors, and to make the remedying of the locality's deficencies in these matters one of your priorities. Can you then tell me what the council intends to do about the twin matters of signage and landscape maintenance, and when it intends to do them?

Kind Regards

This isn't some roadie crusade that I have going on here. It genuinely is important for a region like south Tipperary to have correct signage and roadside maintenance. I first became interested in roads a few short years ago after I went on a few roadtrips and noticed the sheer amount of building and realignment going on across the length and breadth of the land. I made my way around on those roadtrips using route numbers. I guess I was impressed with the logistics involved in planning the national road network - route selection, engineering, the millions of tonnes of material hauled and used for pavement, and the numbering and signage system.
I think, though, that Irish people of a certain generation grew up and drove during a time when road numbers were not important or widely known. We've all met the old(ish!) person who learned geography as a subject that focused almost solely on what towns were in what counties; and roads were learned like that too: route numbers weren't popularly acknowledged until relatively recent times. This was also reflected, I suppose, in the rubbish signage used in Ireland during the 70s, 80s and 90s. But times have changed. Murphaph was right above when he said that Ireland is finally getting some excellent signage - we just have to maintain the momentum.

BluntGuy

A few comments to make.

First of all, thanks for the photographs Furet. What a rare and excellent sight to see signage replaced so swiftly.

Second, the signage itself is of an excellent standard. All routes and destinations labelled correctly, correct patching etc. They've even future-proofed it with the hidden "toll" signage. If we're going to be ultra-pedantic about this and pick a flaw - then the motorway patch uses the incorrect font. But that's irrelevant.

The replacement work was done properly and within a reasonable timeframe. That's what matters. Now tourists who visit the area will know exactly how to find their way back to the M8.

Shame the same cannot be said for Cahir. I know Furet already highlighted most of this, but I can only imagine how disorientating it is for tourists, to come off the M8, venture onto the (correctly signed at the junction) R639, visit the castle, prepare to leave only to find that there is no signage signifying either the R639 or M8 anywhere. Granted there is a sign in the town signing the old N8 through the town as the R670. But there's no (M8) patch on it, and when you travel down the road, you find an N8 RCS sign staring you in the face.

While on the subject of Cahir signage, I note that none of the old N24 signs have been removed either.

It's a disgrace - just like the horrendous job they did patching the old N8 signs at junction 10. Those signs need replacing, they're not correct, even with patching.

As for the situation at the N24/R640 roundabout, see this:



All they need to do is stick a blue M8 patch on it. That's all.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with the signage on the present N8 between Fermoy-Mitchelstown. Last time a new section of motorway opened, they simply added "(M8)" patches. But that isn't going to work now. Will the signs be replaced? I can only wonder.

murphaph

I know it's a mistake but I do actually prefer the use of transport font for motorways off motorway. This same mistake can be found along the R445 outside Tommy Toughers. It looks much neater than the (larger) motorway font and in fact, this is how it's done in the UK, and they invented the system we copied and mollested.

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

I know it's a mistake but I do actually prefer the use of transport font for motorways off motorway. This same mistake can be found along the R445 outside Tommy Toughers. It looks much neater than the (larger) motorway font and in fact, this is how it's done in the UK, and they invented the system we copied and mollested.

Care to illustrate these fonts?

murphaph

Sorry, I dodn't look closely. The fonts in the pics by furet are correct AKAICS. Anyway, to illustrate the fonts..(this sign is correct according to irish rules)...



The (N7) font is called transport heavy.

The (M50) font is called motorway permanent.

In the UK both numbers would be in transport heavy and the ONLY time you see the motorway permanent font is ON the motorway mainline. There is a reason for this...motorway permanent was designed to be read at high speed. We have lost the reasoning behind the font. In my opinion transport heavy/medium are perfectly legible at 120km/h and we should abolish the use of motorway permanent altogether. Our mainline motorway signs look "odd" because we mix'n'match the two fonts together..(see this example with motorway permanent used for the 'M1' and transport heavy for the 'R' number)...


However on some schemes they have recently started to use only motorway permanent for the route numbers (they had to use transport medium (I think) for the 'R' on this example because the motorway permanent font only contains the letters 'M', 'A' and 'B' (british road numbers) and the digits '0-9'. This looks even worse IMO)...

Amtmann

Here's another one:

BluntGuy

Furet, is that photo on the J14 offslip?

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Furet, is that photo on the J14 offslip?

Affirmative. I'd say all this section will be re-signed, given that the N73 is getting a fine big extension (i.e the Mitchelstown relief road).

BluntGuy

There's a whole bucket of signage that needs replacing on the (soon to be) R639. As for the N73, well, the Mitch relief road isn't too long. But they won't get away with simply patching it. The Mitchelstown relief will have to be signed "N73 (R639)" or something.

Also, on the N72 there are a few signs with "N8" that'll need patching.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Also, on the N72 there are a few signs with "N8" that'll need patching.

I've never been on that road. Plenty of signage to change in Clonmel and Athlone (and probably Carlow) too. Ugh, there's so much. Rennicks will make a fortune.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

I've never been on that road. Plenty of signage to change in Clonmel and Athlone (and probably Carlow) too. Ugh, there's so much. Rennicks will make a fortune.

Luckily, in most cases, a simple "(M8)" patch will do the trick. The N72 and N73 are two such cases. The N24 near Clonmel is another example.

At present re-signing old roads is treated like some kind of additional bonus in the context of a major road-scheme when in fact it is integral to creating an efficient, easy-to-use network. Good quality M coupled with horrendous local signage is not a welcome combination.

As your pictures show, the old roads look rather well when they've had their signage replaced and now locals and tourists alike have road signs that will funnel them onto the major trunk roads without any confusion.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

As your pictures show, the old roads look rather well when they've had their signage replaced and now locals and tourists alike have road signs that will funnel them onto the major trunk roads without any confusion.

Well, when the canvassers come a knockin' this is one thing people should mention.

I wonder though, who has administrative authority when designing and ordering up the signs? I mean take the R639 - it was under NRA control until the day the M8 opened, then it became the responsibility of six different councils (Cork, Limerick, S Tipp, N Tipp, Kilkenny, Laois). Is the R signage designed at the same time as the motorway signage, and who decides to install it? Is there one single signage authority, or does the NRA cooperate with various councils? Sounds like a beaurocratic nightmare to be honest, but maybe it's a simpler affair. I'm very much in favour of handing the regional roads over to the NRA.