Tim Ryan to Toulon!!

thomond2006

Munster prop Ryan set to join Top 14’s Toulon

By Edward Newman
Tuesday, April 28, 2009
MUNSTER prop Timmy Ryan looks poised to follow Leinster’s Felipe Contepomi to French Top 14 club, Toulon this summer.
Ryan, who’ll turn 25 in June, hit the headlines earlier this season for his barnstorming first-half performance against the All Blacks last November.

The tight-head was on a development contract with Munster but, since that outing against New Zealand, the Cork man has made just four more appearances as a replacement. However, he proved an important cog in Cork Con’s rise to the top of the AIB League in the regulation season.

Ryan took up rugby at a young age with Highfield, was capped at Ireland Youth level in 2002 as a Number 8 and played in that position at the U-19 World Championships in Paris in 2003. He moved to the front row in 2004.
His brother, Academy member Dave Ryan, also a prop, is expected to be upgraded to a development contract by Tony McGahan this summer.

Ryan’s proposed move will send him to one of rugby’s glamour clubs on the south-east coast of France.

Toulon’s wealthy owner, Mourad Boudjellal, who made his millions in the comic-strip business, has been frustrated at the lack of progress of the club this season.

Earlier this season, Boudjellal hired former Springbok coach Jake White as a consultant to advise as to the way forward. One of the key recommendations was for a director of rugby to be appointed above the coach, currently former All Black captain Tana Umaga.

Philippe Saint-Andre takes the reins as director of rugby this summer, and Ryan could be amongst some exalted company in pre-season: Pierre Mignoni joins from Clermont Auvergne, hooker Sebastien Bruno follows Saint-Andre from Sale while Jonny Wilkinson is also considering an offer. Jerry Collins, Johann Van Niekierk, Sonny Bill Williams are also on the books there.

Meanwhile, Frankie Sheahan could be set for a move to Top 14 club, Brive.

The multi-capped Munster hooker, out of contract at the end of this season, travelled to watch Brive take on Montauban last weekend. The French club, which has England’s Andy Goode and Steve Thompson on its books, are believed to be keen to sign Sheahan on a two-year deal.

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Tuesday, April 28, 2009

Who could have seen this coming?? :eek::eek::eek:

anonymous_joe

(Almost) 25 and not going anywhere for Munster any time soon.

Makes perfect sense.

Good luck to him.

spoon

With Pucci going and the Bull getting on in years I would have prefered to be keeping youngish props in the club. However, he probably would of had to wait a year or two to start getting a lot of game time so it makes sense from his side of things to go.

bamboozle

is that the same lad who was anonymous against Clontarf for Cork Con last weekend?

TarfHead

bamboozle wrote: »

is that the same lad who was anonymous against Clontarf for Cork Con last weekend?

Ouch !

Not wrong, though.

Timothy Bryce

bamboozle wrote: »

is that the same lad who was anonymous against Clontarf for Cork Con last weekend?

The very man

7mountpleasant

Was very poor against ballinahinch also, still though no harm to get an irish prop playing in france, gotta be good expeirience.

Amazotheamazing

Has been rumoured for a good while. A similar move was great for MOD, so hopefully Ryan will come back a better player for it.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Has been rumoured for a good while. A similar move was great for MOD, so hopefully Ryan will come back a better player for it.

Were there not rumours of MOD going back?

Don't see much chance of him making it internationally or at Munster, given that MOD, POC, DOC, Leo Cullen and Bob Casey are all similar in age. So if he had the desire for weekly rugby he'd definitely be able to find a place back in France I reckon. Solid player after all.

[Jackass]

Not a great move to be letting him go I reckon. Looking at players coming through at Munster it's been a long time since they've brought through a forward of great promise...probably the most recent being Leamy who is very good, but not up to the same level of Munster back row players we're used to and Donnacha Ryan who is promising at the moment - probably there stand out "back up" or development forward has been Niall Ronan of Leinster!!!

So letting players like this go isn't great for Munster Rugby in my opinion, the raw talent already there doesn't seem to be exceptional (not that I'm an expert on the Munster squad by any stretch of the imagination!!!) and it seems a lot of coaching will be involved in having players at the right level and no better place than Munster to learn off the countless legends they've produced up front.

In the backs they've plenty of real top class promise and develop excellent players though - Earls, O'Leary, Murphy so far and I'm sure more to follow!

Junior

[Jackass] wrote: »

no better place than Munster to learn off the countless legends they've produced up front.

In the backs they've plenty of real top class promise and develop excellent players though - Earls, O'Leary, Murphy so far and I'm sure more to follow!

Is anyone else scared that there's going to be a seismic event now that Leinster are producing the best forwards and Munster the best backs ?

And I mean that in a general sense, I don't want to get into a debate of Player A v Player B, it just seems to have shifted that way in the last season or so ?

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Were there not rumours of MOD going back?

Don't see much chance of him making it internationally or at Munster, given that MOD, POC, DOC, Leo Cullen and Bob Casey are all similar in age. So if he had the desire for weekly rugby he'd definitely be able to find a place back in France I reckon. Solid player after all.

Tim Ryan is a tighthead prop. You're thinking of Donncha Ryan.

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

Not a great move to be letting him go I reckon. Looking at players coming through at Munster it's been a long time since they've brought through a forward of great promise...probably the most recent being Leamy who is very good, but not up to the same level of Munster back row players we're used to and Donnacha Ryan who is promising at the moment - probably there stand out "back up" or development forward has been Niall Ronan of Leinster!!!

So letting players like this go isn't great for Munster Rugby in my opinion, the raw talent already there doesn't seem to be exceptional (not that I'm an expert on the Munster squad by any stretch of the imagination!!!) and it seems a lot of coaching will be involved in having players at the right level and no better place than Munster to learn off the countless legends they've produced up front.

In the backs they've plenty of real top class promise and develop excellent players though - Earls, O'Leary, Murphy so far and I'm sure more to follow!

But the reason we haven't brought players through is because our first team, for the most part, doesn't need replacing.

However, for the sake of debate, here's a list of probable young replacements for the current team.

Horan - Darragh Hurley, Dave Ryan
Flannery - Fogarty, Cronin, Varley (Cronin and Varley with Connacht and Wasps respectively at the minute)
Hayes - Buckley, Dave Ryan
O'Connell - Donncha Ryan
O'Callaghan - Dave Foley
Quinlan - Holland
Wallace - Ronan, O'Donnell, Grace
Leamy - Peter O'Mahoney
O'Leary - Duncan Williams, Murray (?)
O'Gara - Burke (?)
Dowling - McCarthy
Mafi - Evan Ryan
Earls - B. Murphy
Howlett - O'Boyle
Warwick - Hurley

Of those, some obviously won't make it, and some might only be ML or HEC standard, but there's a team of players waiting to come through.

From seeing Cronin play, I think he could be a great player, as could Darragh Hurley. I've only seen bits of Foley and O'Donnell, but both are playing week-in, week-out for Boh's in the AIL despite only being 21 or 22 and are highly rated. O'Mahoney, Murray, Burke and McCarthy are part of the Irish u-20's team and looked pretty good all the way through schools etc. Grace is only in his early 20's but has been playing for Shannon in the AIL and for the Irish 7's team.

Obviously, the team we currently have is exceptional, we might never have a team as good again, but imo, there is some talent coming through.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Tim Ryan is a tighthead prop. You're thinking of Donncha Ryan.

I know that.

I was talking about Mick O'Driscoll.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I know that.

I was talking about Mick O'Driscoll.

Em, Mick O'Driscoll is a current International, he just picked a grand slam medal a few weeks back.

[Jackass]

Junior wrote: »

Is anyone else scared that there's going to be a seismic event now that Leinster are producing the best forwards and Munster the best backs ?

And I mean that in a general sense, I don't want to get into a debate of Player A v Player B, it just seems to have shifted that way in the last season or so ?

Ah I don't know about that. Of the last couple of seasons, at international level, the 3 major players to come through in the backs have been Fitzgerald, Kearney & Bowe...

Of the players still coming through considered either promising or very promising for regular international representation at this stage there's Sexton, McFadden, Earls, Murphy, Cave...

Good Leinster representation in both sets.

Not to turn this into Leinster v Munster (despite the week that's in it - but only picking them as they produce the lions share of Irish international players) of the Irish Under 20's team this year who came very close to a double grand slam, 8 of the regular starters in the 15 were from the Leinster academy vs just 3 from the Munster academy...As with the U20s who won the grand slam a few season ago, this was mostly Leinster players - the likes of which are coming through the acedemy now (like Sean O'Brien & Paul O'Donohue - quality and very promising players) where as Munster are looking to sign more and more Leinster academy players - Felix Jones, Niall Ronan... and Leinster can still afford to lose players of the quality of Willis, Keatley, Carr to other Irish provinces also and still churning out the likes of Toner, Heaslip, Healy etc. etc. etc. on top of all the others...

Now I know Leinster have signed Munster based players like Hogan, Keogh & Reddan, but these are all senior players filling mostly just back-up roles in the more senior end of the squad from an age when the Leinster academy didn't exist. The first generation have only just arrived - My point is just that Munster don't seem to be producing the best "natural" talent out there and may possibly depend on coaching players up to their best level - but when guys like Tim Ryan (who I thought was the answer to Hayes?) are being let go, they're not doing themselves any favours!!

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Em, Mick O'Driscoll is a current International, he just picked a grand slam medal a few weeks back.

Well yeah, but he's not going to unseat either of the two current incumbents is he?

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Well yeah, but he's not going to unseat either of the two current incumbents is he?

No, but who is?

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ah I don't know about that. Of the last couple of seasons, at international level, the 3 major players to come through in the backs have been Fitzgerald, Kearney & Bowe...

Of the players still coming through considered either promising or very promising for regular international representation at this stage there's Sexton, McFadden, Earls, Murphy, Cave...

Good Leinster representation in both sets.

Not to turn this into Leinster v Munster (despite the week that's in it - but only picking them as they produce the lions share of Irish international players) of the Irish Under 20's team this year who came very close to a double grand slam, 8 of the regular starters in the 15 were from the Leinster academy vs just 3 from the Munster academy...As with the U20s who won the grand slam a few season ago, this was mostly Leinster players - the likes of which are coming through the acedemy now (like Sean O'Brien & Paul O'Donohue - quality and very promising players) where as Munster are looking to sign more and more Leinster academy players - Felix Jones, Niall Ronan... and Leinster can still afford to lose players of the quality of Willis, Keatley, Carr to other Irish provinces also and still churning out the likes of Toner, Heaslip, Healy etc. etc. etc. on top of all the others...

Now I know Leinster have signed Munster based players like Hogan, Keogh & Reddan, but these are all senior players filling mostly just back-up roles in the more senior end of the squad from an age when the Leinster academy didn't exist. The first generation have only just arrived - My point is just that Munster don't seem to be producing the best "natural" talent out there and may possibly depend on coaching players up to their best level - but when guys like Tim Ryan (who I thought was the answer to Hayes?) are being let go, they're not doing themselves any favours!!

Munster have always had less underage players than both Ulster and Leinster. You'd expect that to be reflected in underage national teams. That being said, the development squad that recently beat France had a good number of Munster players and very few Ulster players.

danthefan

Mick O'Driscoll did not play one minute of 6N rugby. He's not really a current international.

As for Leinster producing the forwards and Munster the backs, can't see it going down that road. Munster have now produced a back, without much beyond that, and 3 of the backline are still foreign and won't be shifted for the time being (outside backs that is).

[Jackass]

But where are they going to come from? I mean in the "modern game" of academys and professionalisim there's usually a very clear blood line from academy to senior...I don't know the Munster sqaud well enough to be able to put down their most promising players, but a Leinster academy team (players who have surfaced in the last 4 years or so max) a lot of the Leinster players are either playing first team rugby, on the verge of it or are internationals (or Lions at that!!)...

1. Healy
2.
3.
4. Toner
5.
6. O'Brien / McLaughlin
7. Ronan
8. Heaslip
9. O'Donohoe / Willis
10. Sexton / Keatley
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Malley
13. McFadden
14. Carr / Felix Jones
15. Kearney

Actually looking at that team though, there still seems to be a worrynig lack of front 5 players of quality coming from Leinster with only 2 of note (although the academy is almost half front row players now!!)

I'm just looking at European / Irish rugby 10 years from now - Leinster academy seem to be churning out players all over the field, Munster seems a lot more like a drip feed (although the players that have come through are for the most part class). Maybe you're right though, maybe this Munster team is just too good for any young players to get a chance. I mean if it takes the talent of Keith Earls to get a regular starting spot from the academy then that's got to be a good thing!! I'm just not sure that's the case - I just can't see where they're all going to come from!

(I put O'Brien at 6 cause that's where he'll end up when Rocky leaves imo don't think he's a 7)

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

But where are they going to come from? I mean in the "modern game" of academys and professionalisim there's usually a very clear blood line from academy to senior...I don't know the Munster sqaud well enough to be able to put down their most promising players, but a Leinster academy team (players who have surfaced in the last 4 years or so max) a lot of the Leinster players are either playing first team rugby, on the verge of it or are internationals (or Lions at that!!)...

1. Healy
2.
3.
4. Toner
5.
6. O'Brien / McLaughlin
7. Ronan
8. Heaslip
9. O'Donohoe / Willis
10. Sexton / Keatley
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Malley
13. McFadden
14. Carr / Felix Jones
15. Kearney

Actually looking at that team though, there still seems to be a worrynig lack of front 5 players of quality coming from Leinster with only 2 of note (although the academy is almost half front row players now!!)

I'm just looking at European / Irish rugby 10 years from now - Leinster academy seem to be churning out players all over the field, Munster seems a lot more like a drip feed (although the players that have come through are for the most part class). Maybe you're right though, maybe this Munster team is just too good for any young players to get a chance. I mean if it takes the talent of Keith Earls to get a regular starting spot from the academy then that's got to be a good thing!! I'm just not sure that's the case - I just can't see where they're all going to come from!

(I put O'Brien at 6 cause that's where he'll end up when Rocky leaves imo don't think he's a 7)

Em, I listed out a second team of Irish youngsters (for the most part) who have either played for Munster or are in the Academy. That's where they are going to come from.

[Jackass]

The majority of them are just academy players - we all know that Munster have an academy - I left out the likes of Jame Hagan, Tom Sexton, David Kearney, Shane Monahan, Kyle Tonetti ... all going to be massive players of the future for Leinster - I was listing a team of players who are either first team players, internationals or Lions from the Leinster academy...with the exception of 1 or 2 they all play regualr ML and European rugby ... with the exception of 1 or 2 I'm not sure many of those players you've listed have even started a ML game...

I'm not measuring mickeys here - I know Munster have an academy, I'm just talking about the standard of player and the impact they've had at senior level ... for whatever reason the impact thus far has been very limited from the Munster academy ... I can see where this is going and I'm not trying to bring it down that road - this all stemmed from me talking about how Munster rugby will be in 10 years time - players of Ryans ability shouldn't be let go as, from what I can see, there's feck all coming through compared to the other "major" teams academy!!

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No, but who is?

I think if they'd had the international appearances Cullen, Casey or Mick O'Driscoll could probably have challenged those two. ^^

In terms of youth, no-one looks outstanding just yet.

[Jackass]

In fairness O'Kelly was the stallwart in there for years in between the pair of them - there is a distinct gap of talent at second row now compared to generation just going (Cullen, Casey, O'Kelly, O'Driscoll - as back up for arguably the best second row pairing at any level - without a doubt the best pairing at club / provincial level).

But the likes of Ryan, Caldwell & Toner have already emerged, Caldwell for me being the most promising, a certainty to be the next new cap second row from this country.

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

The majority of them are just academy players - we all know that Munster have an academy - I left out the likes of Jame Hagan, Tom Sexton, David Kearney, Shane Monahan, Kyle Tonetti ... all going to be massive players of the future for Leinster - I was listing a team of players who are either first team players, internationals or Lions from the Leinster academy...with the exception of 1 or 2 they all play regualr ML and European rugby ... with the exception of 1 or 2 I'm not sure many of those players you've listed have even started a ML game...

I'm not measuring mickeys here - I know Munster have an academy, I'm just talking about the standard of player and the impact they've had at senior level ... for whatever reason the impact thus far has been very limited from the Munster academy ... I can see where this is going and I'm not trying to bring it down that road - this all stemmed from me talking about how Munster rugby will be in 10 years time - players of Ryans ability shouldn't be let go as, from what I can see, there's feck all coming through compared to the other "major" teams academy!!

They're not "just" academy players, for the most part they feature with the top AIL teams or for Munster.

Both Hurley's have lots of gametime with Con, as does Holland and Evan Ryan. McCarthy, Murray and Burke have played for Garryowen's senior team this season, O'Donnell and Foley play week-in, week-out with UL/Boh's, Grace with Shannon.

Ryan (like Ross before him) needs to move to get more games, good luck to him, if it works out and he comes to Ireland, so much the better for Irish rugby.

If Leinster had kept Dowling, J. Murphy, or Ronan, would they be as good players as they are now?

If Munster had kept J. Fogarty, S. Keogh, T. Hogan, M. Ross, E. Reddan would they be as good players as they are?

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

In fairness O'Kelly was the stallwart in there for years in between the pair of them - there is a distinct gap of talent at second row now compared to generation just going (Cullen, Casey, O'Kelly, O'Driscoll - as back up for arguably the best second row pairing at any level - without a doubt the best pairing at club / provincial level).

But the likes of Ryan, Caldwell & Toner have already emerged, Caldwell for me being the most promising, a certainty to be the next new cap second row from this country.

Ryan's already been capped.

SomeFool

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ryan (like Ross before him) needs to move to get more games, good luck to him, if it works out and he comes to Ireland, so much the better for Irish rugby.

Great point.... It shows ambition going to the top 14 for your career in the front row and I hope it works out for him too.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

They're not "just" academy players, for the most part they feature with the top AIL teams or for Munster.

Both Hurley's have lots of gametime with Con, as does Holland and Evan Ryan. McCarthy, Murray and Burke have played for Garryowen's senior team this season, O'Donnell and Foley play week-in, week-out with UL/Boh's, Grace with Shannon.

Ryan (like Ross before him) needs to move to get more games, good luck to him, if it works out and he comes to Ireland, so much the better for Irish rugby.

If Leinster had kept Dowling, J. Murphy, or Ronan, would they be as good players as they are now?

If Munster had kept J. Fogarty, S. Keogh, T. Hogan, M. Ross, E. Reddan would they be as good players as they are?

Emmmmm Jackass just said he is talking about players just out of the academy that actually play for the province senior team of course there are Munster youth players playing in the AIL sure theres not one Leinster academy player that isnt playing in the AIL! Leinster have the following talents straight out of their academy and playing for Leinster under 23 :
Cian Healy
Devin Toner
McFadden
Luke Fitzgerald
Rob Kearney
Sean O'Brien
Jonathan Sexton
Heaslip (24 I know but still)
Paul O'Donaghue

As well as having some of the biggest prospects in rugby in their acadamey in :
Tom Sexton
Jack Mcgrath
Ian McKinley
Dave Kearney
Kyle Tonetti
Dominic Ryan

And then being responsible for the development of:
Nial Ronan
Felix Jones
Fionn Carr
Ciaran Willis

Not trying to turn this into a dickwaving contest at all but in all honesty who have Munster brought through of note recently?
Earls
Ryan
Dowling
Hurley

As for Munster's academy players there really isn't much I think maybe 3 players started with the Irish U20s and they weren't anything to write home about.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Em, Mick O'Driscoll is a current International, he just picked a grand slam medal a few weeks back.

and if carlsberg are ever doing an add about a lucky rugby player MOD would be the man to choose, how he was able to be on the grand slam squad after a season playing AIL and some Magner's rugby is purely down to his association with Kidney.

Serenity Now!

danthefan wrote: »

Mick O'Driscoll did not play one minute of 6N rugby

Wrong.

danthefan

I was talking this season, what game did he come on it? I can't remember him ever coming on anyway.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

They're not "just" academy players, for the most part they feature with the top AIL teams or for Munster.



If Munster had kept J. Fogarty, S. Keogh, T. Hogan, M. Ross, E. Reddan would they be as good players as they are?

Keogh's development hasnt been too great to be honest! but all the rest have improved big time having taken their chances, mike ross especially

TarfHead

bamboozle wrote: »

and if carlsberg are ever doing an add about a lucky rugby player MOD would be the man to choose, how he was able to be on the grand slam squad after a season playing AIL and some Magner's rugby is purely down to his association with Kidney.

And MOK's lax attitude to punctuality !

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

Emmmmm Jackass just said he is talking about players just out of the academy that actually play for the province senior team of course there are Munster youth players playing in the AIL sure theres not one Leinster academy player that isnt playing in the AIL! Leinster have the following talents straight out of their academy and playing for Leinster under 23 :
Cian Healy
Devin Toner
McFadden
Luke Fitzgerald
Rob Kearney
Sean O'Brien
Jonathan Sexton
Heaslip (24 I know but still)
Paul O'Donaghue

As well as having some of the biggest prospects in rugby in their acadamey in :
Tom Sexton
Jack Mcgrath
Ian McKinley
Dave Kearney
Kyle Tonetti
Dominic Ryan

And then being responsible for the development of:
Nial Ronan
Felix Jones
Fionn Carr
Ciaran Willis

Not trying to turn this into a dickwaving contest at all but in all honesty who have Munster brought through of note recently?
Earls
Ryan
Dowling
Hurley

As for Munster's academy players there really isn't much I think maybe 3 players started with the Irish U20s and they weren't anything to write home about.

That's all well and good, but Munster haven't needed to bring through players, the average age of the team that won the HEC last year was 28.6. Who should we drop just to blood some young guy? Look at it another way, even capped players like Buckley, MOD and Ryan can't be sure of getting on our bench, we've no pressing need to rush guys like Foley through.

What the other provinces do isn't of much concern to me, we've always used the AIL to get our players up to speed, and long may it continue.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

That's all well and good, but Munster haven't needed to bring through players, the average age of the team that won the HEC last year was 28.6. Who should we drop just to blood some young guy? Look at it another way, even capped players like Buckley, MOD and Ryan can't be sure of getting on our bench, we've no pressing need to rush guys like Foley through.

What the other provinces do isn't of much concern to me, we've always used the AIL to get our players up to speed, and long may it continue.

Sure it's not a bad reflection on Munster in any way.

Leinster have lots of young lads coming through in positions they don't need 'em. There are more people playing the game in Leinster as far as I know, so of course they have more talented youngsters coming through.

I'd love to see a proper look at the youngsters coming through for everyone, but I'd be worried about it turning into a bit of a pissing contest.

I have noticed that Luke Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney were given first team rugby at a younger age than Keith Earls, but that's more a reflection on the coaching style than anything. Some coaches trust in youth some in experience.

stephen_n

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Sure it's not a bad reflection on Munster in any way.

Leinster have lots of young lads coming through in positions they don't need 'em. There are more people playing the game in Leinster as far as I know, so of course they have more talented youngsters coming through.

I'd love to see a proper look at the youngsters coming through for everyone, but I'd be worried about it turning into a bit of a pissing contest.

I have noticed that Luke Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney were given first team rugby at a younger age than Keith Earls, but that's more a reflection on the coaching style than anything. Some coaches trust in youth some in experience.

We'll never know but chances are Earls would not have got anywhere near the game time he did this year if it wasn't for Tipoki's injury. Player development is often forced by necessity rather than choice on behalf of a coach.

The argument that Munster don't need to blood younger players seems like a funny one to me. Hayes is 33 and could get a career ending injury in a second, obviously I wouldn't like to see that happen but it is a fact of life in Rugby. The lack of strength and depth for the future would be an alarming one for me if I was a Munster fan but then again we are Irish and sure we have a tendency to try close the gate after the horse has already bolted and look how well that worked with the economy :pac::pac:

Amazotheamazing

stephen_n wrote: »

We'll never know but chances are Earls would not have got anywhere near the game time he did this year if it wasn't for Tipoki's injury. Player development is often forced by necessity rather than choice on behalf of a coach.

The argument that Munster don't need to blood younger players seems like a funny one to me. Hayes is 33 and could get a career ending injury in a second, obviously I wouldn't like to see that happen but it is a fact of life in Rugby. The lack of strength and depth for the future would be an alarming one for me if I was a Munster fan but then again we are Irish and sure we have a tendency to try close the gate after the horse has already bolted and look how well that worked with the economy :pac::pac:

It's naive to expect you'll get a player as good as Hayes to come through just as Hayes finishes up, we'd have to work out a gameplan that would suit Buckley's strengths.

danthefan

John Hayes is 35.

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

John Hayes is 35.

Would you rather we called Mike Ross back and kept another Irish prospect on the bench too?

There is only so many games in a season, not every player can get enough gametime for the province they'd like to.

danthefan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Would you rather we called Mike Ross back and kept another Irish prospect on the bench too?

There is only so many games in a season, not every player can get enough gametime for the province they'd like to.

What? The above post says he's 33. He is 35. That's all.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's naive to expect you'll get a player as good as Hayes to come through just as Hayes finishes up, we'd have to work out a gameplan that would suit Buckley's strengths.

a gameplan to suit Buckley's strength's...hmmm like uncontested scrums?:rolleyes:

Serenity Now!

danthefan wrote: »

I was talking this season, what game did he come on it? I can't remember him ever coming on anyway.

Actually, have had a look through scrum.com's stats archives and you're right! He didn't run on in any of the 6N games.
So apologies your way from my humble self.

danthefan

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Actually, have had a look through scrum.com's stats archives and you're right! He didn't run on in any of the 6N games.
So apologies your way from my humble self.

Oh no need for apologies, nothing but a simple mistake.

[Jackass]

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ryan (like Ross before him) needs to move to get more games, good luck to him, if it works out and he comes to Ireland, so much the better for Irish rugby.

Yeah, but I'm talking about Munster rugby!! Look at how that one turned out for them!! Horan who, imo, is not the strongest scrummager out there and not much in the lose (don't get me wrong, very good player) and Hayes who's immense but very old now, and there's no obvious replacement - while Ross has just come back from Quins where he is named on the GP team of the season and one of the best props in the league - AND JOINS RIVALS LEINSTER!! That's a disastor!! I mean Munster famously tried to poach Luke Fitzgerald from Leinster too - they aren't producing young players -which is reflected in their recruitment (and attempted recruitment) particularly when it comes to Leinster academy.

Size=everything wrote: »

Leinster under 23 :
Cian Healy
Devin Toner
McFadden
Luke Fitzgerald
Rob Kearney
Sean O'Brien
Jonathan Sexton
Heaslip (24 I know but still)
Paul O'Donaghue

As well as having some of the biggest prospects in rugby in their acadamey in :
Tom Sexton
Jack Mcgrath
Ian McKinley
Dave Kearney
Kyle Tonetti
Dominic Ryan

And then being responsible for the development of:
Nial Ronan
Felix Jones
Fionn Carr
Ciaran Willis

You forgot Keatley!! :eek: Probably the next Irish number 10!! (along with Sexton?) When you list them all like that - there really is a sh*t load of players coming out of the Leinster academy playing top level rugby. Plus that academy list could be twice as long for players you hear nothing but great things about.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

That's all well and good, but Munster haven't needed to bring through players, the average age of the team that won the HEC last year was 28.6. Who should we drop just to blood some young guy? Look at it another way, even capped players like Buckley, MOD and Ryan can't be sure of getting on our bench, we've no pressing need to rush guys like Foley through.

What the other provinces do isn't of much concern to me, we've always used the AIL to get our players up to speed, and long may it continue.

I don't know about that - you see the point is Leinster are producing so many players they just can't hold on to them all, so they are at all the other provinces and over in GP too.....but there just doesn't seem to be exodues of Munster players who can't make it at Munster around - they're either stuck in AIL (which I'm sure if they made enough of a splash at Munster to get noticed they'd move province or go to GP) or just not good enough. I'm sure if a player was good enough he'd want to leave and get game time elsewhere...ala Ross and Reddan etc. (and now Ryan) - I just don't see any of them coming through - this is the whole point of how can they let players of promise such as Ryan go - very few of the Munster exiles of quality have ever come back - Wood being the obvious exception - but with so few leaving and none making an impact in the squad (in fairness half the players at Rock or 'Tarf etc. are either current academy players of Leinster or ones that didn't make it - I don't think AIL can be counted for a huge amount - not that it doesn't play a big role in developing players - but it's the stage beyond AIL I'm interest in when talking about players breaking through and making it.)

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Would you rather we called Mike Ross back and kept another Irish prospect on the bench too?

There is only so many games in a season, not every player can get enough gametime for the province they'd like to.

I totaly get what you're saying and I agree with you, to an extent - but do you get what I'm saying? I'm worried (god forbid) from a Munster perspective that the players aren't there - yes it's great for Irish rugby if players go off to GP and become superb and then come back and play for e.g. Leinster then get picked in the national team.

But that is of absolutely no use to Munster and they have an amazing squad of players - but when you start to look beyond now to the next generation of players.....it's a concerningly scarce horizon from what I can tell (in my humble opinion and don't claim anything I say as fact), whereas with Leinster, probably helps that I hold a much closer interest, but it seems we're putting out hugely impressive players in academy and out of academy for the last few years - and if I trusted my lack of knowledge of the Munster academy I'd say Munster will be fine - but it's my knowledge of senior players that raises the concern, there are VERY FEW Munster academy graduates out there playing top level rugby anywhere, where as Leinster seem to be putting out half a dozen a season (not all managed to be kept at Leinster) and are visible in other teams starting line ups week in week out...

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

Yeah, but I'm talking about Munster rugby!! Look at how that one turned out for them!! Horan who, imo, is not the strongest scrummager out there and not much in the lose (don't get me wrong, very good player) and Hayes who's immense but very old now, and there's no obvious replacement - while Ross has just come back from Quins where he is named on the GP team of the season and one of the best props in the league - AND JOINS RIVALS LEINSTER!! That's a disastor!! I mean Munster famously tried to poach Luke Fitzgerald from Leinster too - they aren't producing young players -which is reflected in their recruitment (and attempted recruitment) particularly when it comes to Leinster academy.



You forgot Keatley!! :eek: Probably the next Irish number 10!! (along with Sexton?) When you list them all like that - there really is a sh*t load of players coming out of the Leinster academy playing top level rugby. Plus that academy list could be twice as long for players you hear nothing but great things about.



I don't know about that - you see the point is Leinster are producing so many players they just can't hold on to them all, so they are at all the other provinces and over in GP too.....but there just doesn't seem to be exodues of Munster players who can't make it at Munster around - they're either stuck in AIL (which I'm sure if they made enough of a splash at Munster to get noticed they'd move province or go to GP) or just not good enough. I'm sure if a player was good enough he'd want to leave and get game time elsewhere...ala Ross and Reddan etc. (and now Ryan) - I just don't see any of them coming through - this is the whole point of how can they let players of promise such as Ryan go - very few of the Munster exiles of quality have ever come back - Wood being the obvious exception - but with so few leaving and none making an impact in the squad (in fairness half the players at Rock or 'Tarf etc. are either current academy players of Leinster or ones that didn't make it - I don't think AIL can be counted for a huge amount - not that it doesn't play a big role in developing players - but it's the stage beyond AIL I'm interest in when talking about players breaking through and making it.)



I totaly get what you're saying and I agree with you, to an extent - but do you get what I'm saying? I'm worried (god forbid) from a Munster perspective that the players aren't there - yes it's great for Irish rugby if players go off to GP and become superb and then come back and play for e.g. Leinster then get picked in the national team.

But that is of absolutely no use to Munster and they have an amazing squad of players - but when you start to look beyond now to the next generation of players.....it's a concerningly scarce horizon from what I can tell (in my humble opinion and don't claim anything I say as fact), whereas with Leinster, probably helps that I hold a much closer interest, but it seems we're putting out hugely impressive players in academy and out of academy for the last few years - and if I trusted my lack of knowledge of the Munster academy I'd say Munster will be fine - but it's my knowledge of senior players that raises the concern, there are VERY FEW Munster academy graduates out there playing top level rugby anywhere, where as Leinster seem to be putting out half a dozen a season (not all managed to be kept at Leinster) and are visible in other teams starting line ups week in week out...

I don't know why you're determined to compare Munster and Leinster and how we bring through players. Each province does things differently. I listed off a team of youngish players who will come through over the next two to three seasons for Munster, who right now are playing for the top teams in the AIL. We haven't needed to call them up for the ML yet, for the most part.

Btw, there's a very obvious point you're missing about the amount of players Leinster brings through, which I alluded to but refrained from spelling out because it is self evident, if Leinster's system was so strong at bringing through youth players, you wouldn't have Munster players like J. Fogarty, T. Hogan, S. Keogh, M. Ross and E. Reddan on your books. Likewise, if Munster's system was perfect, we wouldn't have signed Ronan, Lewis and (now) Jones.

The main judgment of the development system of either province is how well their senior team is going, considering both Munster and Leinster are in a HEC semi and top of the ML, I don't see the huge need for panic just yet. By all accounts Munster are set to promote a lot of their younger players next season, will be interesting to see how they fare.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Btw, there's a very obvious point you're missing about the amount of players Leinster brings through, which I alluded to but refrained from spelling out because it is self evident, if Leinster's system was so strong at bringing through youth players, you wouldn't have Munster players like J. Fogarty, T. Hogan, S. Keogh, M. Ross and E. Reddan on your books. Likewise, if Munster's system was perfect, we wouldn't have signed Ronan, Lewis and (now) Jones.

T'would be unlikely that the player you need is the one who magically appears.

If the next Irish player as good as Paul O'Connell comes through the Munster academy, he's as likely to be a lock as a prop as a back. Munster would have too many scrum halfs and not enough 7s if they had no Leinster players. And still had Reddan. Leinster need a Hogan to provide cover at second-row. It's merely a case of random chance in terms of player development.

I think actually having read Jackass's (very good) post the question is, what comes between AIL and Province. Will it be the new A championship I've heard mentioned? Or do we force the Provinces to use more players in the AIL thus increasing it's standard? After all, the provinces have shorn the clubs of the best players leaving the standard lower than it was 5 or 10 years ago.

guapos

anonymous_joe wrote: »

T'would be unlikely that the player you need is the one who magically appears.

If the next Irish player as good as Paul O'Connell comes through the Munster academy, he's as likely to be a lock as a prop as a back. Munster would have too many scrum halfs and not enough 7s if they had no Leinster players. And still had Reddan. Leinster need a Hogan to provide cover at second-row. It's merely a case of random chance in terms of player development.

I think actually having read Jackass's (very good) post the question is, what comes between AIL and Province. Will it be the new A championship I've heard mentioned? Or do we force the Provinces to use more players in the AIL thus increasing it's standard? After all, the provinces have shorn the clubs of the best players leaving the standard lower than it was 5 or 10 years ago.

The 8 team top division gives us a chance to have a high quality domestic league again. Hopefully the extra A games next season wont ruin this. With the majority of academy and fringe players moving to the top teams the AIL will be a much more attractive product for supporters and sponsers.

crisco10

guapos wrote: »

The 8 team top division gives us a chance to have a high quality domestic league again. Hopefully the extra A games next season wont ruin this. With the majority of academy and fringe players moving to the top teams the AIL will be a much more attractive product for supporters and sponsers.

It was positive to see POD playing for Clontarf last weekend instead of bench warming (at best) for Leinster.

How often do McLaughlin, McFadden et al play for their clubs?

anonymous_joe

guapos wrote: »

The 8 team top division gives us a chance to have a high quality domestic league again. Hopefully the extra A games next season wont ruin this. With the majority of academy and fringe players moving to the top teams the AIL will be a much more attractive product for supporters and sponsers.

Let's hope it works and doesn't just alienate the Connacht and Ulster clubs who'll most likely be left out of the 8. ^^