Question about the graded meets

Woddle

I am planning on running in the 1500 D race on May 6th. My question is if there is not enough bodies to make up the D race are you lumped into a faster C,B,A race depending on how many turn up on the night.

RoyMcC

Maybe they make you run with the girls :pac: Sorry couldn't resist, don't know the answer.

Woddle

RoyMcC wrote: »

Maybe they make you run with the girls :pac: Sorry couldn't resist, don't know the answer.

If you knew me you'd know I'd prefer it

robinph

So what is the cut off times for the various standards then?

Woddle

robinph wrote: »

So what is the cut off times for the various standards then?

Not sure exactly, but looking at last years results and talking with RF, grade D seems are best bit, looking at these 1 mile results we should be ok http://dublinathletics.com/dynamic/pdf/Graded%203%2008.xls I might be last but only by seconds I think :cool:

Racing Flat

robinph wrote: »

So what is the cut off times for the various standards then?

There are some suggested cut-offs, but best bet might be to look at times from last year.

Roughly for a 1mile race for men, D will be won in close to 5mins, last might be 6.30, C will be won in 4.45-4.50, B in 4.30 or so, A in 4.10-4.20 all depending on the night and who's around.

Another rough way of looking at it...
A = <26min 5 mile
B = 26-27min 5 mile
C = 28-30min 5 mile
D = >30min 5 mile

cfitz

The answer to your question Woddle, is yes, they are likely to merge some grades IF there aren't enough numbers.

silverside

I plan to race the 1500 and (with an estimated time of 4:55) would like to be in the "C" category to be dragged faster.

ZiggyStardust

I know these are the Dublin graded meetings.....
Are these restricted to Dublin clubs or is it as long as you're a club member in any county?
Thanks.

shels4ever

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

I know these are the Dublin graded meetings.....
Are these restricted to Dublin clubs or is it as long as you're a club member in any county?
Thanks.

They are not just for dublin clubs, its run by dublin but open to all club members in any county.

ZiggyStardust

Thanks Shels

Racing Flat

silverside wrote: »

I plan to race the 1500 and (with an estimated time of 4:55) would like to be in the "C" category to be dragged faster.

The C will most likely go out at 70secs a lap if not faster (and slow down on the 3rd lap). Again depending on the night and who's around, but more often than not. I was last or second last with a 4.42 for 1500 in C a few years ago. It was won in 4.17, but that was someone who was in the wrong race, then 2nd and 3rd were both 4.28, so the field of 10 more or less finished between 4.28 and 4.42.

D would probably go out at 75secs a lap (at the front) and slow down on the 3rd lap, for a 5.00-5.10 winning finish for the mile or 4.40-4.50 for 1500. So you might be better off go in D, particularly if it's your first one and if you are aiming for 4.55 for 1500. You'll get dragged to a fast time if you are in a race (D) but not necessarily if you are too far out the back in C. The finishing spread will be much larger in D, maybe 4.45 to 6.00 for 1500.

winner92

I'm planning on running my first graded meeting this year and i'm just wondering would I be right in assuming that there is electronic timing at them?
Also do you have to register in advance or can you just enter on the night?

eltuerto

winner92 wrote: »

I'm planning on running my first graded meeting this year and i'm just wondering would I be right in assuming that there is electronic timing at them?
Also do you have to register in advance or can you just enter on the night?

Whilst there have been posts enthusing about the graded meets the reality is somewhat different. Yes there can be electronic timing but sometimes it doesn't work. You can enter on the night but get there early or you will get an earful!!! You must wear a club vest or if not in a club a white t shirt. Races will not run to the time specified, so do your warm up near the track as races can either be brought forward or delayed. Finally when you get to the line be prepared to be lectured about tucking your vest in, not listening to what lane you are running in etc etc. Also as happened last graded not putting female runners (2) for the 5k in with the men and if you were a male running in darkenss.

Standards in the races are not consistent or controlled. Therefore you can get good runners in a lower grade running away with the race. SO just go prepared for a somehwat flawed if well meaning track meet.

thirtyfoot

eltuerto wrote: »

Whilst there have been posts enthusing about the graded meets the reality is somewhat different. Yes there can be electronic timing but sometimes it doesn't work. You can enter on the night but get there early or you will get an earful!!! You must wear a club vest or if not in a club a white t shirt. Races will not run to the time specified, so do your warm up near the track as races can either be brought forward or delayed. Finally when you get to the line be prepared to be lectured about tucking your vest in, not listening to what lane you are running in etc etc. Also as happened last graded not putting female runners (2) for the 5k in with the men and if you were a male running in darkenss.

Standards in the races are not consistent or controlled. Therefore you can get good runners in a lower grade running away with the race. SO just go prepared for a somehwat flawed if well meaning track meet.

All of the above is standard fare for many track meets up and down the country and indeed UK and Europe. When dealing with numbers it can be a cattle mart. Most athletes are well versed to floating programmes, finals being brought forward, being barked at and called into lane etc and if you have problems with it means you need to get race day experience and know how to manage, understand and following a programme of events. Its normal and athletes are used to it as most have done it from U10 upwards where there may be over 100 different events at a meet and your programme may move or change by up to 1-2 hours. Does that mean its right, no. But the volunteer and official base is small and by and large old. They are over run and understaffed and do their best. Maybe if we had more ex-athletes or dare I say it those who continue their running when the sell by date has past committing to being officials it could help some of the pressure. Yes, there are well run events in Ireland and UK and Europe but at the lower levels you will get an element of chaos no matter where you are.

Dublin Graded is a small programme of 10-15 track events and I think you are exaggerating the issues. I've never had problems with Dublin Graded meets and I had my first back in the '90's. Its a great idea, well run in my opinion by the normal standards and that is seen by the calibre of athletes who compete in it throughout the season.

robinph

eltuerto wrote: »

You must wear a club vest or if not in a club a white t shirt.

So then Woddle, any chance of getting one of these swanky club vests for next week then?

I've heard they make you run faster.

hurdler2009

eltuerto wrote: »

Whilst there have been posts enthusing about the graded meets the reality is somewhat different. Yes there can be electronic timing but sometimes it doesn't work. You can enter on the night but get there early or you will get an earful!!! You must wear a club vest or if not in a club a white t shirt. Races will not run to the time specified, so do your warm up near the track as races can either be brought forward or delayed. Finally when you get to the line be prepared to be lectured about tucking your vest in, not listening to what lane you are running in etc etc. Also as happened last graded not putting female runners (2) for the 5k in with the men and if you were a male running in darkenss.

Standards in the races are not consistent or controlled. Therefore you can get good runners in a lower grade running away with the race. SO just go prepared for a somehwat flawed if well meaning track meet.

Yeah I really don't think this is a very accurate assessment of the meets and I think the Dublin Board should be commended for organizing them and maybe some other county boards could do the same or perhaps organise some good quality inter-county leagues with perhaps 3 or 4 counties competing in them?? Sure they may not be always on schedule but sure thats not the end of the world and all athletes should be well used to this!! Also it can be very hard to predict the numbers that will compete at a graded meet sometimes!!

eltuerto

I have been to many track races throughout my career in Ireland, Uk, Spain, Italy etc. I have to say that the attitude to athletes in Ireland is not good and that goes for the Dublin graded. It is as easy to be polite to athletes as it is to be rude to them. Being barked at is not the norm elsewhere and always makes athletes even more wound up. The races are rarely ON TIME something all expereicned athletes bitterly complain about every year. Warm ups are very messy. There are plenty of officials at the races so I do think it is a case of poor organisation.

The "AH sure it will do" attitude is not good enough. Anyway I am merely trying to warn new athletes to the gradeds to be forewarned about them.. Yeah they (the gradeds) will just about do but only in the absence of other competition .

Hard Worker

eltuerto wrote: »

Warm ups are very messy. There are plenty of officials at the races so I do think it is a case of poor organisation.

I don't understand your comment about warm ups. The only interference I've seen by officials is when people are doing strides on the home straight when a race is on and they inadvertently / stupidly run through the finish line and interfere with the electronic timing.
There certainly aren't plenty of officials at the graded meets. They are very thin on the ground and that can be one of the reasons for them starting a little late. As far as I know, each club are obliged to provide 2 officials. That doesn't always happen.
Fair play to the Dublin Board. They provide decent standard graded meets with electronic timing for a pittance. If you intend turning up for your first track race, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the enjoyable night you have.

cfitz

He's right about the schedule thing though. I've only been to a few races abroad but they all seem to have the common sense to allow sufficient time for each race on the timetable. Why does pretty much every race meet in Ireland try to pretend that they can have a million events run off in 2 hours? I can't see any way that it could be better than writing a conservative schedule and sticking to it.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

He's right about the schedule thing though. I've only been to a few races abroad but they all seem to have the common sense to allow sufficient time for each race on the timetable. Why does pretty much every race meet in Ireland try to pretend that they can have a million events run off in 2 hours? I can't see any way that it could be better than writing a conservative schedule and sticking to it.

Timetable for next graded meet.

- 40mins to complete a 10000. Seems ok.

- 5 200's in 35 mins. Little tight but if all goes to plan and not a lot of false starts it can be done.

- 6 1500's in 55mins, again very reasonable.

If you are complaining about that being an aggressive timetable then its a case of complaining for the sake of complaining. Very reasonable. 12 races (incl a 10000) in a little over 2 hours. Eltuerto - how would you schedule the below differently and fit in 12 races of that variety in 2 hrs 10 mins?

Now what might happen is maybe the need for a 4th race in the mens 200. Is that bad news getting more athletes competing? 100% of athletes will say no and be willing to expect a 5 min delay in the program if it means more athletes in the sport. If that program falls 15-20mins behind, no biggy.

There might be problems with irish athletics, but the Dublin Graded are a success story.

19.00 10000M Dublin Championship

19.40 200M Women B
19.45 200M Women A

19.50 200M Men C
20.05 200M Men B
20.10 200M Men A

20.15 1500M Women B
20.25 1500M Women A

20.35 1500M Men D
20.45 1500M Men C
20.55 1500M Men B
21.05 1500M Men Development

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

19.00 10000M Dublin Championship

19.40 200M Women B
19.45 200M Women A

19.50 200M Men C
20.05 200M Men B
20.10 200M Men A

20.15 1500M Women B
20.25 1500M Women A

20.35 1500M Men D
20.45 1500M Men C
20.55 1500M Men B
21.05 1500M Men Development

It should be more conservative so that all the events start at the correct times and people can relax and warm-up when suits them. Having the whole event take forty-five minutes longer is easier on every one than regularly running twenty-five minutes behind schedule and nobody able to trust the timetable.

That table is aggressive because:

40 minutes for 10k: What if there is a woman in this race? Even if there isn't, good chance there will be a 35 minute guy in that race. That leave just 5 minutes to check off all the names, get the electronic timing/gun ready, line everyone up and get started.

5 minutes for each 200m (apart from Grade C): Seems very ambitious. Check off the names, get the timing/gun set up, everyone get their blocks set up , if someone moves in the blocks they'll have to stand up, if someone false starts you're back another few minutes.

10 minutes for Womens Grade B 1500m: Doesn't leave much time for checking off the names, setting the timing/gun up, lining everyone up. I know you can have them getting ready while other events are on but that doesn't work that well when there's a shortage of officials and also they're going to have to take the blocks off the track after the final 200m race.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

It should be more conservative so that all the events start at the correct times and people can relax and warm-up when suits them. Having the whole event take forty-five minutes longer is easier on every one than regularly running twenty-five minutes behind schedule and nobody able to trust the timetable.

That table is aggressive because:

40 minutes for 10k: What if there is a woman in this race? Even if there isn't, good chance there will be a 35 minute guy in that race. That leave just 5 minutes to check off all the names, get the electronic timing/gun ready, line everyone up and get started.

5 minutes for each 200m (apart from Grade C): Seems very ambitious. Check off the names, get the timing/gun set up, everyone get their blocks set up , if someone moves in the blocks they'll have to stand up, if someone false starts you're back another few minutes.

10 minutes for Womens Grade B 1500m: Doesn't leave much time for checking off the names, setting the timing/gun up, lining everyone up. I know you can have them getting ready while other events are on but that doesn't work that well when there's a shortage of officials and also they're going to have to take the blocks off the track after the final 200m race.

Ok, I do suppose they have tight TV schedules to fit into with TV close ups..........oh wait, they don't:)

Calling that timetable aggressive is crazy and as I say you are just being difficult and complaining for the sake of it.

In Beijing, there was 7 mins between each 200m heat. These are with prima donna sprinters, TV close up run through etc, much longer holds from on your marks to set etc. 7 mins in the Olympics versus 5 min in Dublin Graded.

Mens 1500 in Beijing had 9 mins between, same camera close-up etc etc. Dublin Graded is a bit conservative with the 10 mins I'd say. Granted Dublin Graded will be a minute slower at least in the race so that makes it up.

Am I wrong in thinking its only a Mens 10000 in the Dublin Champs so no women?

Ok, so timetable is fine I think we can say. Lets see what else can we complain about?

The weather. What is the story with the Dublin Graded and the weather. There are never positive winds for the sprinters. I have been to races in Albania and Sweden and have got +2.0m/s in all the sprints. Also, why are there no pacemakers in the 1500. I was watching the Golden League and these guys paced the athletes through and got them PB's. I wanted to run 4:35 for the 1500 and had to take the pace out myself. When I won, no flowers, no energy drink. I was starting my lap of honour when some eejit measuring the Javelin stopped me on the bend and said I couldn't go around and do a full lap. Typical of Ireland, what a dump. I wrote a letter and sent an email annd posted on a mesage board. All the writing and complaining about the weather, lack of flowers/gatorade for winners etc meant I missed training. It was worth it though as it really let them know how I felt. Don't expect it to change though. Typical. What a dump.

cfitz

You're the one comparing it to the Olympics!

Just coz it's a good event doesn't mean you have to defend it to the death on every point.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

Just coz it's a good event doesn't mean you have to defend it to the death on every point.

I think this may be the closest we can get to cfitz retreating with his tail between his legs:D

RoyMcC

:pac::pac: Good stuff guys, brightened up my mood which was :mad: before.

Racing Flat

Tingle wrote: »

Calling that timetable aggressive is crazy and as I say you are just being difficult and complaining for the sake of it.

I think that's a bit harsh. All he's saying is better timetabling might mean that it is more realistic to be able to start these on time and so you can judge your warm up correctly.

Personally I don't mind too much if they run a little late, but what has happened occasionally is they run too early! This can be a disaster. If enough don't turn up for 4 races they combine D and C, so you were expecting to run at 20.40 and now you have to run at 20.30. Mightn't seem much, but if it means you miss your race because you are getting your spikes on, or taking the last visit to the facilities, it's annoying as hell. Because of this potential, I find I am warming up earlier than usual to be on the safe side, so then if it runs late it's a bit of a problem.

Fair play to all the volunteers and it is a great event, but I do think that either more thought could be put into the timetabling, or at least they could strive harder to stick to it and if that's not possible that they communictae clearly and timely that events have been brought forward or delayed.

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

I think that's a bit harsh. All he's saying is better timetabling might mean that it is more realistic to be able to start these on time and so you can judge your warm up correctly.

Personally I don't mind too much if they run a little late, but what has happened occasionally is they run too early! This can be a disaster. If enough don't turn up for 4 races they combine D and C, so you were expecting to run at 20.40 and now you have to run at 20.30. Mightn't seem much, but if it means you miss your race because you are getting your spikes on, or taking the last visit to the facilities, it's annoying as hell. Because of this potential, I find I am warming up earlier than usual to be on the safe side, so then if it runs late it's a bit of a problem.

What I do and encourage others to do is warmup based on events especially if you are in the middle or end of the program. So, it might be a case that if you want 30mins to warmup you work back from your event and guestimate. When the Mens A 200 is on the blocks you warmup. Its very simple. I've always used this and never missed or been unready for a race. Its part of being an athlete and you need to practice it. People might think its silly but it is so important and needs to be practiced and the more experienced you get at it the better and so it becomes less of a stress at the crucial pre-race time.

In the past 12 months I have only got stroppy on 3 occasions with athletes I coach. Once when 100% was obviously not being given in a session by one athlete, once when we did a race simulation time trial with a designated start time and two of them messed it up and weren't ready for it and once when two of them (the same two) weren't paying attention at a recent race and nearly missed a program reschedule by the organisers. Even when training I will say when in the middle of warmup that we start in 10mins or 13mins or whatever so they are used to getting ready and focused within 10-15 mins if needs be.

From my experience if athletes are moaning and whinging before a race about its lateness or unorganisation* etc they aren't focussed. When an athlete moves to an elite level at champs they have to contend with strange warmup facilities/timings and call-rooms of anything up to an hour before they race. This can be unsettling but if athletes are used to judging, gauging and managing their pre-race warmup its no bother to them. So, our messed up programmes do have a purpose:pac:

* I did run a PB once when I was so angry that an official was being such a bollix and doing things by the book. I was muttering to myself and strutting like Maurice Greene and telling anyone who would listen about my injustice. The anger spurred me on. The official is still around and is probably the best official we have.

jaymack75

ok - track novice here....I've never done a track race before, but was thinking of trying the 10k at the next graded meet at irishtown......so a couple of novice questions if anyone can advise, thanks......:)

Is there a minimum standard I should be at to turn up for the 10k?
Do you need to wear track spikes - or are runners ok?
I'm unattached, so I just wear a plain white tee-shirt?
anything thing else that a newbie should know?

cfitz

jaymack75 wrote: »

Is there a minimum standard I should be at to turn up for the 10k?
Do you need to wear track spikes - or are runners ok?
I'm unattached, so I just wear a plain white tee-shirt?
anything thing else that a newbie should know?

Well their timetable allows 40 minutes for the 10k, so try to finish within that time anyway

From what I've seen, most people seem to wear light runners for 10k track races (unless they're elite athletes).
I don't think it'll matter what sort of a top you wear - if it was me I'd choose whatever I normally race in.
There probably won't be many people in your race, I'd guess around 4 or 5 people.

Hard Worker

jaymack75 wrote: »

ok - track novice here....I've never done a track race before, but was thinking of trying the 10k at the next graded meet at irishtown......so a couple of novice questions if anyone can advise, thanks......:)

Is there a minimum standard I should be at to turn up for the 10k?
Do you need to wear track spikes - or are runners ok?
I'm unattached, so I just wear a plain white tee-shirt?
anything thing else that a newbie should know?

As far as I know, you must be a registered member of a club.

jaymack75

thanks cfitz

been a while since i've done a 10k, but i'd be looking at maybe sub 37.........but was hoping not to get lapped too many times!

any idea what the standard would be like?

Racing Flat

Last time I saw the 10000 there, it was won in low 33s, 2nd low 34s, 3rd just under 35, 4th 36.30 and 5th about 38. So only 5 in the race and after 2 laps, well spread out, each running on his own effectively. But perhaps it's been busier other years? I think when it was on a saturday in June maybe last year or the year before it was a bit more popular. If you want to know of a 10k track race with about 40 in it and a fair few around that sub 37 standard, pm me.

robinph

I'm guessing it is appropriate for me to scrape the last of the XC mud off my spikes, put in the 5mm(?) ones that came with the shoes, and use them for the 1500m tomorrow evening then? Or am I better just using my regular road shoes?

It's been a very, very long time since I went anywhere near a track, but if there is the chance of getting that extra tenth of a second advantage over Woddle.

Racing Flat

robinph wrote: »

I'm guessing it is appropriate for me to scrape the last of the XC mud off my spikes, put in the 5mm(?) ones that came with the shoes, and use them for the 1500m tomorrow evening then?

I'd say that's what anyone who doesn't want to buy 2 pairs of spikes does. (Just a note, when I got my XC spikes, the fellow in the shop told me that if I was using them on the track to use 7mm, as because the XC spikes I was getting had some rubber lips and grooves for grip on the sole, which meant that the 5mm spikes wouldn't be long enough.)

I wouldn't wear your normal shoes, but for 1500m flats might be okay. I'll tend to use spikes for 1mile and shorter, flats for 3k and above, but if it was wet I might consider the spikes for 3k or maybe even 5k, but probably not 10k.

Woddle

I used my racers for the mile and 800m. I tried on my spikes last week before the race but they just didn't feel right, so I think I'll do a few sessions in them first and get used to them, so more than likely racers for me again tomorrow.

Anyone know how much the race fee is.

Racing Flat

IIRC last year was 8Euro for the night (ie you can do more than 1 event, why not try the auld high jump) or 45Euro for the series (8 nights) or something like that.

robinph

I thought there was a link in this thread somewhere to the times that it was all happening tonight, but I cannot seem to find it now. Anyone any idea as to where the timetable of events is?

Stupid_Private

robinph wrote: »

I thought there was a link in this thread somewhere to the times that it was all happening tonight, but I cannot seem to find it now. Anyone any idea as to where the timetable of events is?

Tonight's timetable

Woddle

robinph wrote: »

I thought there was a link in this thread somewhere to the times that it was all happening tonight, but I cannot seem to find it now. Anyone any idea as to where the timetable of events is?

http://dublinathletics.com/dynamic/pdf/Graded%20Meeting%20No%20209.xls

Philosophress

All Dublin Board Fixtures are available here http://www.dublinathletics.com/resFix/fixtures.asp

You can get tonight's race card from
http://www.dublinathletics.com/resFix/fixture.asp?id=269

thirtyfoot

Shame about the wind for the sprinters but 22.6 into a -2.7 ain't bad at all for the mens 200 while 3:54 is a nice season opener in the 1500.

63 entries in the mens 1500 and 29 in the 200, great to see.

http://www.dublinathletics.com/dynamic/pdf/Graded%20No.2%202009.xls

Woddle

and out of those 63, I finished 61st, I did feel a little out of my comfort zone but I will be back in a couple of weeks for the mile and hopefully post a better time. It was a brill experience and very well organised and quite a few spectators aswell.

thirtyfoot

Woddle wrote: »

and out of those 63, I finished 61st, I did feel a little out of my comfort zone but I will be back in a couple of weeks for the mile and hopefully post a better time. It was a brill experience and very well organised and quite a few spectators aswell.

Great to hear.

Here is another one that could be on the menu for track virgins. On Saturday and Sunday in Greystones and could be another relaxed 'entry level' track meet. There is a 1500. It is the Wicklow County Championships and is open to guests.

http://www.athleticswicklow.org/

http://www.athleticswicklow.org/entry_forms/co_champs_2009.pdf

silverside

I thought the organisation was good overall, Irishtown stadium is a good facility - met a few guys from various clubs including boards ac - I did more-or-less as expected, but looking forward to improving and getting into the C race by next year. I wrote in the race report thread too.