A question for all...

Zangetsu

The fundamental belief in Christianity is love.

I'd just like to get an opinion on why a religion that is firmly based on love for fellow man, cannot accept a person for who they are or what they believe.

Example from times past: Scientist comes up with a theory that doesn't adhere to christian beliefs is excommunicated and sometimes murdered.

Example from the present: Believes in another religion or lack of religion and is judged and persecuted for their beliefs and/or actions based on this.

This might be badly phrased, but as I've said before, it is difficult to express yourself properly in these conversations. I'd only ask that replies should address the entire post and not just a particular section.



(Excuse the title of the thread, didn't have the words to sum it up!)

Seaneh

You're wrong.

The fundimental belife of Christianity is that Jesus died so that we could have a relationship with our God and gain eternal life.

seanybiker

Seaneh wrote: »

You're wrong.

The fundimental belife of Christianity is that Jesus died so that we could have a relationship with our God and gain eternal life.

See thats where Im lost.
Jesus was the father, son and
holy ghost. I always thought god was jesus father but going by that it would mean he gave himself so we could live . If ya know what i mean.

Zangetsu

But Jesus did that out of love no?

My whole idea of Christianity has just been toppled. Kinda upsetting tbh...

Is this the general consensus in the church? I'm genuinely shocked...

Seaneh

Jesus wasn't the Father, Son and The Holy ghost.

He is part of the Godhead and was God's manifestation on earth.

Imagine a vendiagram, 3 seperate circles which all overlap to form a whole unit with 3 distinct parts?

That's what the trinity it.

3 Distinct parts of the one thing.

excuse my spelling btw.

seanybiker

Seaneh wrote: »

Jesus wasn't the Father, Son and The Holy ghost.

Sorry thats what I picked up growing up is all.
Your spelling is grand.

Seaneh

Zangetsu wrote: »

But Jesus did that out of love no?

My whole idea of Christianity has just been toppled. Kinda upsetting tbh...

Is this the general consensus in the church? I'm genuinely shocked...

Yes but you are right in a way too.
"God so loved the world that he sent his only son..." Probably the most well known scripture in the bible.

But Christians belive that without accepting this sacrafice and repenting from your sins and turning away from the world that you can't have a relationship with God and you can't gain eternal life.

Grace is a gift and to get the benifit of a gift you have accept it and use it!

As for persucition of individuals by relgiuos bodies I don't think it has any baring on Christianity because IMHO they weren't acting according to the teachings of christ but rather acting out their own small mindedness and in ability to understand the physical structure of the universe.

Nowhere in the NT does it say "the world is flat, kill anyone who says otherwise"

And if people are claiming to be christian and then "judged and persecuted" non-belivers then I'd say this, they aren't Christian at all because they have no right to judge anybody and even less right to persecute.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

If this is somehow related to something epscific then I could probably help your understanding a little more?

seanybiker

so if god sent his son on a 'mission' that he knew he was gonna die. Do you not think thats bad.
Im not taking the piddle , just wondering.
I know that if my son needed a kidney transplant I would 'sadly' be a little happy that the donor died to save him. But I would not send my son out to a certain death.
As I said already Im not been horrible I am seriously just wondering.

Seaneh

Jesus knew what he was doing on earth before he came here so no, I don't think it was "bad" I think it was the greatest act of love anyone has ever carried out and even more amazing when you consider that most acts of love are carried out for specific people, this act of love was committed for the entirity of the Human race. It shows that rather than give up on us and start again, as he easily could have, God wanted us to know him, have a relationship with him and help us grow and was willing to do what was needed to make that happen.

seanybiker

So right. I have sadly attempted suicide a few times. Not gonna go into how I tried it. But I tried it to make my family happy and my missus. I know they would be sad but after Im gone and they 'accept' I be gone I know 100% their lives would be better. Im hopefully not gonna try it again but going by what ya said , you think I be right to do it.
Sorry I am being a little pedantic.

Seaneh

Just to reaffirm the 3 parts to one unit thing.

John 1, 1-14.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The Word here is Christ "The word was made flesh and dwelt among us".

In Genises 1: 26 when God says "Let us make man in our image" he is talking to Christ or "The Word" who was with him from the begining. and seeing as only god can create and only God could be there from the begining then it's safe to assume that Christ is God.

Zangetsu

I'm still trying to get over the trauma of your first post...

You specifically said that Christianity is not based on love at its core. That has changed my whole view of the church COMPLETELY in a negative way. It blows my mind how a follower could say that...

I grew up with Christianity, I was baptized, had my communion and confirmation. Through my own choice and beliefs I moved on but always held great respect for the teachings.

I don't even have that anymore. I won't be back...

Seaneh

seanybiker wrote: »

So right. I have sadly attempted suicide a few times. Not gonna go into how I tried it. But I tried it to make my family happy and my missus. I know they would be sad but after Im gone and they 'accept' I be gone I know 100% their lives would be better. Im hopefully not gonna try it again but going by what ya said , you think I be right to do it.
Sorry I am being a little pedantic.

Doesn't realte at all.

If you'd said "Right, theres a lad in my house right now with a gun trained on my kids head and he says that if I come home he will trade the kids for me" then you'd have been close, you'd be sacraficing yourself to save the life of people you loved. This would be honourable and could be considered rightious.

You offing yourself can't be of benifit for your missus, kids or extended family as there can be no gain from it.

Rather than kill yourself to stop whatever negative influence you have on your family why not challenge the cause of the negative influence and try to get it out of your life and then proceed to make a conserted effort to have a positive influence on the lives of those you love.

seanybiker

Seaneh wrote: »

Doesn't realte at all.

If you'd said "Right, theres a lad in my house right now with a gun trained on my kids head and he says that if I come home he will trade the kids for me" then you'd have been close, you'd be sacraficing yourself to save the life of people you loved. This would be honourable and could be considered rightious.

You offing yourself can't be of benifit for your missus, kids or extended family as there can be no gain from it.

Rather than kill yourself to stop whatever negative influence you have on your family why not challenge the cause of the negative influence and try to get it out of your life and then proceed to make a conserted effort to have a positive influence on the lives of those you love.

I must admit that was a great post. Seriously. It means a lot to me. I know I was a little pedantic and sorry about that but thanks for answering me in a friendly and nice way.

Seaneh

Zangetsu wrote: »

I'm still trying to get over the trauma of your first post...

You specifically said that Christianity is not based on love at its core. That has changed my whole view of the church COMPLETELY in a negative way. It blows my mind how a follower could say that...

I grew up with Christianity, I was baptized, had my communion and confirmation. Through my own choice and beliefs I moved on but always held great respect for the teachings.

I don't even have that anymore. I won't be back...

No, I said that the fundimental blife of Christianity is that Christ died for our sins.

The reason he did this is out of love yes.

People constantly say stuff like "I don't belive in god but I respect Christs teachings, love thy neighbour" etc but in all honesty this is a crock of sh1te.

Christs teaching was this.

God loves you. and wants to have a relationship with you but to have this relationship you have to believe. Like Paul said: "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

And christ himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.".

His reason for being on earth wasnt to tell you to be nice to your neighbours, it was to tell you that God loves you and that you can experience that love by repenting from your sins and accepting Christ as your personal saviour.


It's all well and good being a nice person and "living a good life" but without being saved you ain't going to heaven.


Just to further this point I'll share C.S. Lewis's Trilemma with you.

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma

PDN

God is indeed Love. He is also Truth. He is also Life. He is also Holy.

Where we go wrong is in taking one of these attributes of God, excluding all others, and then reinterpreting it by our definition of that term.

So, for example, people take the concept of 'love' - then they interpret it as a soppy, it doesn't matter what you do, kind of bland benevolence. Then they want to use that to argue against idea of God that is holy, truthful, or life-giving.

Love, at it's best, is much more than vapid tolerance. For example, we discipline our children because we love them enough to care that they grow up to be responsible people of integrity rather than selfish little brats. God loves us enough to care that we grow up to be holy, to know the truth, and to have life. That is why Seaneh is so right in saying that Christianity, at its core, is so much more than just love. It is about mankind finding salvation and forgiveness in Jesus Christ, then living according to God's truth.

Of course killing or persecuting anyone for their opinions is still totally wrong.

wolfsbane

Zangetsu wrote: »

The fundamental belief in Christianity is love.

I'd just like to get an opinion on why a religion that is firmly based on love for fellow man, cannot accept a person for who they are or what they believe.

Example from times past: Scientist comes up with a theory that doesn't adhere to christian beliefs is excommunicated and sometimes murdered.

Example from the present: Believes in another religion or lack of religion and is judged and persecuted for their beliefs and/or actions based on this.

This might be badly phrased, but as I've said before, it is difficult to express yourself properly in these conversations. I'd only ask that replies should address the entire post and not just a particular section.



(Excuse the title of the thread, didn't have the words to sum it up!)

Other posters have rightly said that persecution of people for their beliefs is not right. Many branches of the Christian church have done that, confusing their role with God's. However, it was not a lack of love that motivated many of them - just misplaced zeal.

I think you would accept that people can rightly be punished for their actions - paedophile priests, thieves, murderers, etc. - even though that is who they are.

wolfsbane

seanybiker wrote: »

So right. I have sadly attempted suicide a few times. Not gonna go into how I tried it. But I tried it to make my family happy and my missus. I know they would be sad but after Im gone and they 'accept' I be gone I know 100% their lives would be better. Im hopefully not gonna try it again but going by what ya said , you think I be right to do it.
Sorry I am being a little pedantic.

No, killing yourself would be a very bad idea. It would bring years of guilt & sorrow to those who loved you, and bring you into God's presence uncalled for and unprepared.

As Seaneh said, work on the things you think are harming them now. If you cannot sort them out, that will be bad for them and you - but nowhere near as bad as suicide.

However, there is good news. God is able to deliver you from any sin you have got yourself into, if you turn to Him in full and true repentance. This is what conversion is all about - a turning to God from your sin to serve Him, a new life flowing from a new heart. Countless millions have experienced God's pardon and received power to overcome the sins that previously dominated their lives.

I'm not talking about joining a church or tidying your life up. That would just make you a Pharisee. I'm talking about meeting God spirit to Spirit, knowing He is real, and embracing His offer of salvation. God sent His Son to pay for the sins of all who trust in Him, and Jesus calls all who are weary and heavy laden with sin to come to Him:
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.