Proposal to alter the Championship

MementoMori

While out last week a friend floated the notion that no team that has won the All-Ireland in the last ten years should be allowed a second chance via the back-door system.

Basically keep the Championship format the same but if any of the teams who have won the All-Ireland in the last ten years lose they are out.

In Football the teams affected would be Kerry, Tyrone, Armagh, Galway and Meath
In Hurling the teams affected would be Kilkenny, Cork, Tipperary

It kinda came out of discussing hurling and the chances of anyone but Kilkenny winning the All-Ireland. There was consensus that while someone migth beat Kilkenny once the possibility of someone beating them twice is very remote.

By bringing this is in, it would level the playing field a bit more for the smaller teams. Currently with the back-door system it looks pretty unlikely that one of the smaller counties will manage to make the break-through, given that it allows the big-guns a second chance.

Ten years might be a bit long as it would be a bit harsh on the current crop of Meath footballers but as against that they would not be affected in 2010.
Perhaps eight years?

So what do people think?

It might be a bit soon for it now but if in two years time Kilkenny had two more All-Irelands and Kerry and Tyrone had one more each apiece, I could well imagine their might be a lot of support for it.

roosterman71

Its a good enough idea in principal, but its very unfair to penalize a county just because of past success. Winning the All-Ireland shouldn't man that 1 defeat the next year means your out. That gives advantage to all other counties

theram

Penalise a county because they're successful? Why dont we just assasinate Gooch, Stevie O Neill, etc and see if that evens things out a bit?

MementoMori

roosterman71 wrote: »

Its a good enough idea in principal, but its very unfair to penalize a county just because of past success. Winning the All-Ireland shouldn't man that 1 defeat the next year means your out. That gives advantage to all other counties

It wouldn't be giving the advantage to all other counties. It would just be giving an avantage to those counties who haven't won an AI in the last ten years.For the vast majority of the competition - one defeat has meant your were out. Plenty of teams managed to win back-to-back AIs under this system.Since the back-door has come in, the teams which have benefited in the sense they have won an All-Ireland have been the stonger teams.

theram wrote: »

Penalise a county because they're successful? Why dont we just assasinate Gooch, Stevie O Neill, etc and see if that evens things out a bit?

Over-reaction much - linking the idea of removing an advantage from the successful teams to assassinaton.:rolleyes:

I'm not calling for the successful teams to be thrown out of the competition -I'm just saying that since they are the stronger teams with the better squads, they shouldn't get a second chance.

roosterman71

The way to make the weaker counties have a better chance of winning an All Ireland is not to lighten the competition they face.

Tyrone won Sam last year. Who's to say that they pick up a raft of injuries/have a controversial free awarded against them/poor referring decision mean they get beaten in the 1st round this year? If that happens, they are out. The same thing could happen to Mayo (for example) but they get another chance. Its not fair on the successful counties and puts too much pressure on players/officials to win all the time. If Tyrone want to win an All Ireland under these ideas, then they can't lose a match in any year until the 2019 championship. In essence, they'd have to win Ulster every year. Say they don't manage it till 2016, then they couldn't lose 1 match till 2026!!!

Take Kilkenny. The reason they are winning All Irelands is because they are the best. Thats not their fault. Its up to their opposition to get to a higher level.

If you want to make it easier for weaker teams to win, then penalizing the good teams who put in the extra effort at all levels and suffer 1 defeat isn't the way to do it.

Daysha

Ask yourself this MM. Could you ever see Man United starting a season with a 10 pt deduction, or Lewis Hamilton starting from the back of the grid in every race, or Tiger Woods starting the US Open with a 5 stroke penalty? All just because of their recent success?

hawkwing

Daysha wrote: »

Ask yourself this MM. Could you ever see Man United starting a season with a 10 pt deduction, or Lewis Hamilton starting from the back of the grid in every race, or Tiger Woods starting the US Open with a 5 stroke penalty? All just because of their recent success?

Would Portsmouth and Cardiff have been in last yrs FA CUP final if there was a backdoor/second chance for the big 4 etc??

Daysha

hawkwing wrote: »

Would Portsmouth and Cardiff have been in last yrs FA CUP final if there was a backdoor/second chance for the big 4 etc??

No, but considering a big 4 club had won the FA Cup between 96 and 08, that's hardly a valid argument

Interyurauldone

MementoMori wrote: »

While out last week a friend floated the notion that no team that has won the All-Ireland in the last ten years should be allowed a second chance via the back-door system.

Basically keep the Championship format the same but if any of the teams who have won the All-Ireland in the last ten years lose they are out.

In Football the teams affected would be Kerry, Tyrone, Armagh, Galway and Meath
In Hurling the teams affected would be Kilkenny, Cork, Tipperary

It kinda came out of discussing hurling and the chances of anyone but Kilkenny winning the All-Ireland. There was consensus that while someone migth beat Kilkenny once the possibility of someone beating them twice is very remote.

By bringing this is in, it would level the playing field a bit more for the smaller teams. Currently with the back-door system it looks pretty unlikely that one of the smaller counties will manage to make the break-through, given that it allows the big-guns a second chance.

Ten years might be a bit long as it would be a bit harsh on the current crop of Meath footballers but as against that they would not be affected in 2010.
Perhaps eight years?

So what do people think?

It might be a bit soon for it now but if in two years time Kilkenny had two more All-Irelands and Kerry and Tyrone had one more each apiece, I could well imagine their might be a lot of support for it.

It's an interesting proposal and one that would get alot of support from the so called "weaker counties" but it would reduce the amount of games being played over the summer.

Personally I would prefer to see more of the Kerrys' and Tyrones' then increasing the possibility that they could be gone after one game.

Kerry can technically win the All-Ireland in 5 games this year, Munster semi/Munster final/All Ireland QF/SF/Final and that's a pity in my book. I would prefer to see them play 7 or 8 times.

Plus these lads train all year for the summer ball and as a previous poster stated a run of bad luck in one match and that could be curtains early doors for one of our better teams.

Don't get me wrong i'm not criticising what ur saying I think your right to broach the topic; I just think maybe a system that had more games like a "champions league" type draw with 8 groups of 4 playing each other once in an initial league basis (with the weaker counties having home advantage) before the competition went on to a knock out 16 & so on format would be more inclusive and more exciting.

Of course this would mean scrapping the provincial championship but i think it would be for the greater good of the overall championship.

premierstone

Isnt the idea of the AI championship that we have the best AI champions at the end of it

Seriously some people wont be happy untill we have Killkenny and Waterford in a football AI :rolleyes:

Name me a sport where a select few dont dominate every time!

Daysha

premierstone wrote: »

Name me a sport where a select few dont dominate every time!

Well there is the NFL in American football, but they have that draft thing so we can hardly apply that over there.

You're right though. The solution isn't to punish the best, it's to promote the worst.

MementoMori

Interyurauldone wrote: »

It's an interesting proposal and one that would get alot of support from the so called "weaker counties" but it would reduce the amount of games being played over the summer.

Personally I would prefer to see more of the Kerrys' and Tyrones' then increasing the possibility that they could be gone after one game.

Kerry can technically win the All-Ireland in 5 games this year, Munster semi/Munster final/All Ireland QF/SF/Final and that's a pity in my book. I would prefer to see them play 7 or 8 times.

Plus these lads train all year for the summer ball and as a previous poster stated a run of bad luck in one match and that could be curtains early doors for one of our better teams.

Don't get me wrong i'm not criticising what ur saying I think your right to broach the topic; I just think maybe a system that had more games like a "champions league" type draw with 8 groups of 4 playing each other once in an initial league basis (with the weaker counties having home advantage) before the competition went on to a knock out 16 & so on format would be more inclusive and more exciting.

Of course this would mean scrapping the provincial championship but i think it would be for the greater good of the overall championship.

Personally I love the idea of the champions league group stage draw but I don't think the proposal would have a hope in hell of ever being passed. I agree as well about the fact about the number of games. However if it applied this summer and all of the "winner" teams lost in games where they could previously have taken advantage of the back-door system that would only mean eight less games total between the two codes.

Also I agree with the fact that one bit of bad luck could potentially ruin an entire season. That can happen under the current system as well.

Daysha wrote: »

You're right though. The solution isn't to punish the best, it's to promote the worst.

The thing is pretty much anything you do which is promotion of the worst is de facto punishment of the best. Anything that gives the worst an advantage, has to mean disadvantaging the best.

premierstone wrote: »

Isnt the idea of the AI championship that we have the best AI champions at the end of it

Seriously some people wont be happy untill we have Killkenny and Waterford in a football AI :rolleyes:

Name me a sport where a select few dont dominate every time!

Even with this system I'm pretty sure that the favourites for the All-Ireland this year would still be Kerry and Tyrone in the football and Kilkenny in the hurling. This system would also mean that there wouldn't be the situation there is currently where there are games involving the bigger teams, where it doesn't matter that much if a team wins or loses.

I think the main advantage of my proposal is that it has at least a decent chance of being adopted and wouldn't be a massive change from the status quo. Clearly there are disadvantages but I think the potential advantages outweigh this.

Also does anyone have any other ideas about how to improve the chances of the smaller teams in both codes winning an All-Ireland?

Mr. Incognito

What a rubbish idea.

Who would want to win such a diminished All Ireland.

If Louth want an All Ireland they should EARN it, like every county did for the last 120 years.

If you want to beat Tyrone and Kerry, put the structures in place, coach your kids and build it from the ground up.

Any such gifted all irelands would be a hollow victory and everyone in the country would know it. FFS Kerry get abuse in 04 and 06 because they didn't beat Tyrone on the way but all 32 had a fair crack and they came out on top.

This is sport. The weak fail, the strong survive, Take your bleeding heart woe is them pity rules to the special olympics. (no offense intended there, it's the only applicable sport I could think of that has proper concessions for people with less abilities)

I think the main advantage of my proposal is that it has at least a decent chance of being adopted

Not in a million years mate.

Daysha

How would you even begin to implement a Championship structure like this? Not to mention having to alter it every year a new team wins the All-Ireland and every year a team goes more than 10 years without winning an All-Ireland.

The thing is pretty much anything you do which is promotion of the worst is de facto punishment of the best. Anything that gives the worst an advantage, has to mean disadvantaging the best.

Not at all. At the moment the GAA are working fairly hard at promoting hurling in football-strong counties. Are they being accused by Kilkenny, Tipp etc of giving them a disadvantage? Nope, because they know the GAA is just doing their job.

I'm sorry, but the more I think of this, the more ludicrous it sounds. Imagine a county wins an AI for the first time in donkeys years. At first they'll be like "hell yeah", but then they'd be like "oh FFS, we've just given ourselves a major disadvantage of ever repeating this feat for the next ten years"

Also, apologies if you honestly think this would get adopted, but I'm telling you now, it will never happen.

MementoMori

I get the feeling that Daysha and Mr Incognito are quite strongly opposed to my proposal. The thing is I can understand completely where they are coming from, and in a sense I kinda agree with them.

Daysha - not wishing to be offensive but a reasonably competent 12 year old would be able to implement this as a Championship structure. It might take them 20 minutes more than it takes them to organise the present Championship. It is the essence of simplicity.

The general feeling I'm getting from both of your posts is that the weaker teams should work harder to promote the weak sports in their country.

At the moment the GAA are working fairly hard at promoting hurling in football-strong counties. Are they being accused by Kilkenny, Tipp etc of giving them a disadvantage? Nope, because they know the GAA is just doing their job.

The reason that Tipp and Kilkenny aren't accusing the GAA of disadvantaging them is that they know that that no matter how much much effort the GAA try to promote hurling in the weaker countries, the stronger countries like Kilkenny and Tipp will always hold the whip hand. Ask someone from Kilkenny how they feel about money/effort being poured into promoting hurling in Dublin and the answer you get is probably going to be smothered in laughter.
Ask them how they feel about the threat of counties like Kerry in hurling and there's a decent chance you might literally see someone die of laughter.
Ask them if they would feel threatened if the amount spent on Kerry hurling was ten times what was spent on Kilkenny hurling, and see how they react.
No matter what effort is made in the weaker countries, the traditionally stronger countries which have had so much more success will easily match and surpass these efforts.

The person who made the suggestion initially was from Tipperary - they adamitted that they felt that Tipp hadn't a hope in the current championship given the fact that Kilkenny would most likely have two chances. They also said that long term unless more counties had a realistic chance of winning an All-Ireland there would be a decline in the popularity of hurling. If there is only a handful of teams capable of winning an All-Ireland, winning an All-Ireland automatically becomes devalued.

I'm from Kerry- I want Kerry to win All-Irelands every year. However if Kerry win All-Irelands every year due to the fact that other counties become weaker and weaker, winning All-Irelands becomes worthless. Unless something is changed with the current Championship structure Kerry will win more and more All-Ireland because of the strength of the game in the county and because of the strength of the game, this will lead to a decline in other counties because they will feel they don't have any chance of winning an All-Ireland. Short-term this will feel good but in the long-term it will mean there are less and less counties capable of winning an All-Ireland and will inevitablely lead to a devaluation of the winning an All-Ireland.

Long-term unless there is an increase in the number of potential winning counties, winning an All-Ireland becomes devalued and meaningless. A situation where you win when there is only three or four other teams capable of winning is far less satisfactory than winning when there is fifteen of twenty potential winners.

Given Daysha and MrIncognito feel that my proposal hasn't a hope in hell of being adopted,I ask does anyone have any proposal for change that would increase the chance of "the smaller countries" winning an All-Ireland? I'm not looking to hand over an All-Ireland but I would like to see some proposals that increase the chance of the lesser counties winning an All-Ireland.

Daysha

I get the feeling that Daysha and Mr Incognito are quite strongly opposed to my proposal.

Whatever gave you that idea?

Daysha - not wishing to be offensive but a reasonably competent 12 year old would be able to implement this as a Championship structure. It might take them 20 minutes more than it takes them to organise the present Championship. It is the essence of simplicity.

Well if it's so easy, would you like to make a stab at trying it out? I'd honestly like to hear what you come up with.

The reason that Tipp and Kilkenny aren't accusing the GAA of disadvantaging them is that they know that that no matter how much much effort the GAA try to promote hurling in the weaker countries, the stronger countries like Kilkenny and Tipp will always hold the whip hand. Ask someone from Kilkenny how they feel about money/effort being poured into promoting hurling in Dublin and the answer you get is probably going to be smothered in laughter.
Ask them how they feel about the threat of counties like Kerry in hurling and there's a decent chance you might literally see someone die of laughter.
Ask them if they would feel threatened if the amount spent on Kerry hurling was ten times what was spent on Kilkenny hurling, and see how they react.
No matter what effort is made in the weaker countries, the traditionally stronger countries which have had so much more success will easily match and surpass these efforts.

It was barely 2-3 years ago when Dublin hurlers were getting absolutely pummeled left right and centre in the league and championship. Now they've one of the best young managers in the country and are just off the back of a brilliant 4th place finish in the league with victories over Waterford, Cork and Galway. That was absolutely 100% unimaginable even two years ago.

I don't know what kind of people you speak to in Tipp or Kilkenny but if you ask them about the future of Dublin hurling they'll tell you it's very bright indeed. Nobody can fail to be impressed by the strides the Dubs have made recently, and it all stems for a complete overhaul of their underage structure, something which many of the Dub posters here can provide you with more info.

Can you give me a single logistical reason why other weaker counties with the same hurling aspirations can't do the same?

The person who made the suggestion initially was from Tipperary - they adamitted that they felt that Tipp hadn't a hope in the current championship given the fact that Kilkenny would most likely have two chances. They also said that long term unless more counties had a realistic chance of winning an All-Ireland there would be a decline in the popularity of hurling. If there is only a handful of teams capable of winning an All-Ireland, winning an All-Ireland automatically becomes devalued.

Cork and Kilkenny have won 8 of the 9 All-Irelands this decade, but you're not going to find a single supporters from either county thaat will say it's devalued. Did you see the joy on Kilkenny supporters faces when they won the 3 in a row last September? Can you imagine their joy if they win a 4 in a row this year for the first time in their history?

Tipp have won ONE AI in the past 18 years. Waterford haven't won a single AI in the past 50 years. Are you honestly telling me that if either county breaks their famine this year it won't have as much meaning to it because they only have 2 or 3 realistic competitors?

I'd like to see the look on Tipp or Waterford peoples faces in September if they win an AI and you go up to them and tell them they've won a devalued trophy.

I'm from Kerry- I want Kerry to win All-Irelands every year. However if Kerry win All-Irelands every year due to the fact that other counties become weaker and weaker, winning All-Irelands becomes worthless

Understandable, but that hasn't happened. Kerry win AI's because you've been getting better, not because the 31 other counties are getting worse.

Long-term unless there is an increase in the number of potential winning counties, winning an All-Ireland becomes devalued and meaningless. A situation where you win when there is only three or four other teams capable of winning is far less satisfactory than winning when there is fifteen of twenty potential winners

Honest question here. If, 10 years from now, we are still in the exact same position, with the usuals dominating each Championship but with many counties knocking on the door behind them, would you value the Championship "worthless"?

Given Daysha and MrIncognito feel that my proposal hasn't a hope in hell of being adopted,I ask does anyone have any proposal for change that would increase the chance of "the smaller countries" winning an All-Ireland? I'm not looking to hand over an All-Ireland but I would like to see some proposals that increase the chance of the lesser counties winning an All-Ireland.

This has been tried out many times before in previous topics. Basically the jist of it is a) many people don't want to go to the days before a back door existed because that leads to a severe drop in top quality games every year, and which also leads to a significant loss of revenue for the GAA, and b) it's not entirely logistical to play more games because of club commitments, the league campaign and the lack of mid-week games like you see in many other sports around the world.

MM, you obviously have your heart in the right place, and thats great to see. I like that you want to have an extremely competitive Championship and, in a dream world, have 10-15 realistic challengers for the AI every year. But to reach this perfect Championship, you simply cannot hold back the greater counties by punishing their success.

Some may even argue that if Kilkenny were told they had a "one strike and you're out" implemented on them, they'd become even more ruthless. They're bad enough as it is at the moment!

Don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing the same counties winning all the time as much as the next guy, and of course I'd love to see weaker counties doing better. But it has to be done in the right way.

Mr. Incognito

I'm from Kerry- I want Kerry to win All-Irelands every year. However if Kerry win All-Irelands every year due to the fact that other counties become weaker and weaker, winning All-Irelands becomes worthless. Unless something is changed with the current Championship structure Kerry will win more and more All-Ireland because of the strength of the game in the county and because of the strength of the game, this will lead to a decline in other counties because they will feel they don't have any chance of winning an All-Ireland. Short-term this will feel good but in the long-term it will mean there are less and less counties capable of winning an All-Ireland and will inevitablely lead to a devaluation of the winning an All-Ireland.

Long-term unless there is an increase in the number of potential winning counties, winning an All-Ireland becomes devalued and meaningless. A situation where you win when there is only three or four other teams capable of winning is far less satisfactory than winning when there is fifteen of twenty potential winners.

This argument, quite simply is bull sh!t.

Roscommon won the first four in a row. should they have been banned for ten years when they were going for 5?

The simple fact is that players, and teams move in cycle. No matter how good Kerry or Kilkennny are they only have a shelf life of ten years and then it's a new team.

Yes traditional counties will have structres and thus an advantage but there is no domination, nor has there been in 120 years in any team in any sport in the world ever!

Ten years ago it was th chicago bulls, then the lakers, now the celtics.

20 years ago in football it was kerry, then meath, then cork then northern teams then meath/galway/kerry, then kerry armagh then tyrone and now kerry again.

time will restructure the championship. you just have to let it.

THAT is the reason these idiotic changes will never be implemented.

cruiserweight

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Roscommon won the first four in a row. should they have been banned for ten years when they were going for 5?

In football? That is Wexford that you are thinking of

Agus

Interyurauldone wrote: »

It's an interesting proposal and one that would get alot of support from the so called "weaker counties" but it would reduce the amount of games being played over the summer.

Personally I would prefer to see more of the Kerrys' and Tyrones' then increasing the possibility that they could be gone after one game.

Kerry can technically win the All-Ireland in 5 games this year, Munster semi/Munster final/All Ireland QF/SF/Final and that's a pity in my book. I would prefer to see them play 7 or 8 times.

Plus these lads train all year for the summer ball and as a previous poster stated a run of bad luck in one match and that could be curtains early doors for one of our better teams.

Don't get me wrong i'm not criticising what ur saying I think your right to broach the topic; I just think maybe a system that had more games like a "champions league" type draw with 8 groups of 4 playing each other once in an initial league basis (with the weaker counties having home advantage) before the competition went on to a knock out 16 & so on format would be more inclusive and more exciting.

Of course this would mean scrapping the provincial championship but i think it would be for the greater good of the overall championship.

You probably could retain the provinicial championships in that format (there would be a lot of opposition to their scrapping). To give enough time, the league could be cut in half (each division divided into two groups with a final). That plus the pre-season cups and challenges should be enough preparation for teams. The provincial championships could be played off as at present. Or if replays in the provinces were cut out (the 17 games of the new All-Ireland series would be enough time to have replays) they could be played in only a month.

Obviously there would have to be a decent incentive or they would become meaningless. The 8 finalists could be first seeds with 2nd/3rd/4th seedings depending on league position for the other 24 teams. The four champions could each start the group with one point and play all three games at home. They could even perhaps get a home quarter-final should they get that far.

Flukey

No "weaker county" will ever win the All-Ireland championship, no matter how you jig the format. They first have to become a strong county - and that is something that often happens. No weaker county has ever won the championship, but many formerly weaker counties have. As for the proposal of not giving a county that has won in the past 10 years a second chance, it is ridiculous. Penalising a county for success is not a good idea. Also, counties that were good years ago, may not have such a good team now, and should not be penalised. Meath won the football championship in 1999, but there is not much of that team around now, and they shouldn't be penalised. Once we beat them on the 7th of June, they should still have that second chance.

LeoB

Something needs to be done to gig thing up a bit. Where do you start? Is it possible to have the championship split in 2 sections? Not north and south but East/west. Line down the middle Cork in Esat, Kerry in the West. Monaghan in the East, Derry in the West. Keep the provincial championship. The back door is good but does give the strong counties a second chance while I feel the real Idea was to give more games to the weaker counties.

What about 4 or 6 pools like champions league but seed teams where the weaker side has the home draw. Teams like Dublin or Kerry might not like playing in some tight pitch whereas if they get a smaller county in Croke Park or Tralee they will pull them apart.

mrgaa1

We have to go beyond the current setup and look forward. An open draw should be implemented. Why should Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal,Monaghan scrap every year to win Ulster when Kerry/Cork play a warm up match before their provincial final. Dublin and Kildare will compete for Leinster and Galway & Mayo for Connaucht. Thats really it.
So the open draw removes this issue.

Heres how:

• all names into the hat - pull them all out into four different groups.
• Then draw each group into pairings - you win you stay you lose your out.
• Then we're left with the quarter finals. All those who are in the quarter finals can not compete in their provincial championship.
• Run provincial championship over 3-4 weeks - no replay's - all extra time
• The winners of the provincial championships then play the Q/F's from the open draw.
• then its semi's
• Then its a final