Shooting Calves

kfk

Had a conversation a few days ago with a farmer who sold Jersey bull calves for about 10euro each. The calves were 3 weeks old. He said that he would have been as well off if he shot the lot of them at birth. This happens often in New Zealand afaik but what is the legality of shooting healthy calves here in Ireland. Even at 10euro each he is still better off, rather than paying 40euro to collect a dead calf. Any opinions?

djmc

The calf would drank about 30 euro of milk cost of tag 2.50 mart fee 5 euro + + labour and transport
It would probably be cheaper to shoot it but on moral grounds I would not shoot a healty calf
I think a lot of farmers would rather make a loss but not all could afford to
With bull calves so bad I often wondered if the family would like veal for dinner:P

kfk

Cant imagine that you would get much veal from a Jersey calf! I too would rather to make more of a loss and sell the calf than shoot it. Would anyone here shoot the calf to save a few quid?

whelan1

heard of one export company picking them up for free dont know what they do with them.... i think the whole scheme will have to be rethought out... same thing goes for if you have a sick calf do you treat it or get rid - i would treat it and give it a chance .. although i would be making a loss

pathway33

kfk wrote: »

paying 40euro to collect a dead calf.

is it illegal to bury a calf in your own field? Don't think it used to be. Maybe it's changed.

irish_bob

wouldnt cost me a thought to shoot a jersey bull calf , all cattle die the same in the end anyway ,

my brother who is a full time dairy farmer ( im presently working full time on his farm ) breeds a certain amount of jersey cross and inevitably has to deal with a significant number of worthless bull calves , he either gets them shot or gives them away for free at about 12 hrs old

pakalasa

Maybe it's about time we had a serious look at sexed semen!!

Or even better go back to Britsh Friesian. Years ago, before the premiums came in, we bought in all Friesian bullocks at around 18 months old. We would sell them finished off grass the following autumn. In about 30 or so we would have 2 or 3 O-grades, the rest all R's.

With the low price of milk - does this make sense again.

reilig

Wouldn't have the heart to do away with a poor innocent calf like that. I'd rather take the loss in profit. There is one exporter taking these calves for free for export. There was an article in the Journal about him about a month ago. However, in last week's journal (not yesterday's), there was a small article about how there are several places now taking them for free (think they're working on a similar basis to donkey sanctury )

Bitten & Hisses

I couldn't kill an innocent calf like that either. I mean, the farmers in question have obviously made a conscious decision to breed Jerseys, so they should at least deal with the consequences and give the animals a fair chance to have a decent life.
Another possible outlet for these bulls is as teasers on suckler farms. My vet is a pedigree Limousin breeder and uses a vasectomised Jersey bull with a chin ball. From his point of view, he's a small animal, doesn't mark the ground, doesn't eat too much grass and has good vigour.

kmick

In Australia they shoot them at birth. Farming in my opinion is like the banking system. Its so warped that it cannot survive in its current form. Its going to be back to basics at some point i.e. you dont breed, grow or produce what you cant sell locally.

whelan1

i think you need a burial licence to bury animals on your farm .... sexed semen has a lower rate of conception than normal... why bother using a jersey bull if you are going to be left with this problem ... i know some one who has good angus bulls for sale instead:rolleyes::rolleyes:

irish_bob

you know may im too much of a deep thnker but i dont really get all the mushyness over shooting worthless calves or the talk about calves not having much of a life , do we honestly think cattle have any comprehension of how much quality of life they have , apart from thier ability to eat , sleep and breathe , their level of awareness is no greater than that of a stone

my conscience would be much more troubled by the fact that due to the CAP ,thousands of PEOPLE in 3rd world countries die every year

Tableman

There is one exporter taking these calves for free for export. There was an article in the Journal about him about a month ago. However, in last week's journal (not yesterday's), there was a small article about how there are several places now taking them for free (think they're working on a similar basis to donkey sanctury )

I think I remember reading something like this a few weeks back. Some place down in Crlow are taking them. May be wrong but is the met suitable for kebabs or something?

seanybiker

not a regular on here but if anyone wants to get rid of calfs I would be able to take a few of ye rather than ye killing them. I cant take many but I would like to save them from a bullet. My girlfriend has a load of land. Pm me if you are thinking about shooting em. Seriously.

JohnBoy

not wanting to sound like a dick seany but what are you gonna do with them?

they'll never gain any real weight so will always be worthless, so are you gonna keep them as pets for a few years and then put a bullet in their head?


I think the guy mentioned in the journal is processing them for dogfood.

BalthazarB

How many calves are we talking about per year, a couple of 100,000 ?

What percentage of calves from the dairy herd are useless to the farmer?

Ginja Ninja

well,in genetic terms:Just over 50% i.e anything born with testicles is Biological waste

And yes it is illegal to bury dead animals on your land VERY,VERY illegal as far as I know you can be arrested and banned from owning animals if your caught doing it[Supposed to be the original cause of BSE from what I know]

whelan1

i still dont understand why use a jersey bull if you know there is a big chance of a worthless bull calf .... there are so many other breeds that could be used that you will at least get something back

irish_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

i still dont understand why use a jersey bull if you know there is a big chance of a worthless bull calf .... there are so many other breeds that could be used that you will at least get something back

the pros of crossing with jersey outweight the cons , granted you get nothing for your bull calf but truth be told no one makes any real money on a holstien bull calf considering you have to rear him to a fortnight , few would have more than 30 euro out of them

the jersey cross cow is superior to the holstien cow in a spring calving system in many ways , she will last at least one more lactation on average , thier milk is higher in fat and protein , they are smaller which is a big advantage when you see how much wetter the weather is nowadays , the jersey cross is more fertile and also has better feet so can walk further without loosing weight and doesnt need a tonne of meal to get through the lactation , this is especially important at a time of such low milk prices

jerseys have always been a common feature on farms over seas , ireland was quite unique in how few jerseys thier were here , this was of course down to the unusual by international standards of rearing fresian bull calves to bullocks for the factory so the jersey was a non runner

nowadays , the bigger dairy farmers are concentrating exclusivley on milk so they are not too bothered about the bull calf only get rid of him as soon as possible

im a bit bemused at the concern for shooting the jersey bulls in here , i suspect many of the people who have trouble with it have no such concern for hunts roaming thier lands tearing foxes to pieces

slippy wicket

I cant understand why anyone would use a jersey bull when there are so many other breeds such as the danish red which would at the very least be worth something.
As regards shooting calves, it would not appeal to me at all.
If you have a system where you keep most of your dairy calves common sense should tell you that you should not use jerseys or their b@astard cousin the kiwifriesan.

whelan1

that was my point too..... ok they have their advantages as told before but a major downside is the bull calf

irish_bob

the point is that the downside of the bull calf being worth nothing is more than compensated by the fact that the cows on average last at least one lactation longer , have higher solids , go back in calf quicker and hold body condition better , a bigger issue for me ( although still unimportant ) would be the cull cow value , half of what a fresian is worth

as reards keeping calves , anyone who would be using jersey would not be involved in calf to beef or calf to anything for that matter , they are farmers who only priority is milk , any other enterprise is a distraction

the danish or norwegian red are inferior to jersey when it comes to solids , in fact they are no better than a fresian in anyway shape or form , the only thing they bring to the table is that crossing them on a fresian gives you hybrid vigous which carrys with it , improovements in fertility , the jersey does this aswell but also gives you way higher solids , frankly im no fan of the sweedish , norwegian or danish red , i believe thier simply crossbreeding for those who are not prepared to go all out and use jersey , we always had a unique dislike of jerseys in this country but ive already explained why that is in an earlier post

slippy wicket

H F bull calf 120 euro
Continental bull calves 220 - 250 euros
Prices from new ross mart Saturday 3rd may.

We usually serve half cows to better type Hf bulls like DEU or MTZ. Deu breeds quality calves male or female.Might give you the sh!ts when you see that ballsack but a live one is always better than a dead one.

The rest get our own blue bull and thats it.

kfk

Do you mind me asking what your brother does with the bull calves when he gets them shot irishbob? Are they taken away by a knackery or does he bury them on-farm?

irish_bob

kfk wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what your brother does with the bull calves when he gets them shot irishbob? Are they taken away by a knackery or does he bury them on-farm?

he has never ever buried any animal of any kind on his farm , he only got about half a dozen shot by the knackery this year , the rest , he gave away , the day they were born , he tried rearing a small number to two weeks old but only got 10 euro for them in the mart so he obviously lost money there , 30% of the cows would calve down to hereford so its not all jersey cross and he still uses black and white on a good few cows , hasnt completly gone down the cross bred route but with heavy land , poor milk prices and climate change ( incessant wet weather each year ) the small cow is the way to go he feels


as for slippy wickets price list from new ross , black and white bull calves ( holstiens not british fresian ) seem to make a good bit more in the southern half of the country , in the month of may , no two week old holstien bulls make over 70 euro in the marts up this part of the country

what the continentials were making is completly irrelevant in this discussion

marizpan

I know this is a bit of an old post, but just wondering where would i source a couple pb jersey heifer calves in the spring? and what prices would i expect to pay for them. thanks

Cowmad

whelan1 wrote: »

i think you need a burial licence to bury animals on your farm .... sexed semen has a lower rate of conception than normal... why bother using a jersey bull if you are going to be left with this problem ... i know some one who has good angus bulls for sale instead:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I agree entirely with what you are saying. Why do farmers breed them when they know they ain't worth much when they are born.This to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

curious guy

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

well,in genetic terms:Just over 50% i.e anything born with testicles is Biological waste

And yes it is illegal to bury dead animals on your land VERY,VERY illegal as far as I know you can be arrested and banned from owning animals if your caught doing it[Supposed to be the original cause of BSE from what I know]

As far as know BSE originated from bonemeal fed back to cattle. BSE is a prion disease very unusual as its not a virus or bacteria more like a messed up protein.

colrow

My partners son has 200 jerseys in Cornwall, the local hunt used to come round and shoot the bull calves for free, and take them away to feed the hounds, now I think the hunt has some kind of licence and they charge to shoot them. They did raise them a few years ago as veal, and setup a deal with a local butcher, but the cost wasn't worth it, they sold the meat as Rose Beef or somesuch name.

irish_bob

colrow wrote: »

My partners son has 200 jerseys in Cornwall, the local hunt used to come round and shoot the bull calves for free, and take them away to feed the hounds, now I think the hunt has some kind of licence and they charge to shoot them. They did raise them a few years ago as veal, and setup a deal with a local butcher, but the cost wasn't worth it, they sold the meat as Rose Beef or somesuch name.

is dairying in that region of the uk , pasture based , is thier enough rain so as to produce milk predominatley off grass , i realise this is the part of england with the warmest climate so i thought it may be reliant on irrigation

colrow

irish_bob wrote: »

is dairying in that region of the uk , pasture based , is thier enough rain so as to produce milk predominatley off grass , i realise this is the part of england with the warmest climate so i thought it may be reliant on irrigation

Mostly grass,I don't know too much about it, its called the New Zealand sytem I think, milk twice a day, on a 20/40 swing over, spring calving spread over end feb to end april

djmc

Cowmad wrote: »

I agree entirely with what you are saying. Why do farmers breed them when they know they ain't worth much when they are born.This to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The reason farmers use jerseys is for the female calf for milk production the jersey has the highest protien milk of any breed which procesers want and will pay extra for.
All male dairy breeds are worth little or nothing but because of jerseys small size males are worth nothing