Is Marathon Des Sable really a trekking/hillwalking event than a running event?

tomsthumb

Thought I'd ask this question on MdS to see what others think. I came across this thread while googling MdS.

Its an endurance event but having talked to some of my BA squaddie friends who've done the event (and knowing a fair bit re endurance events), they are amazed at the lack of preparation of some of the entrants who think its a running event and it just becomes a long hillwalking event that requires orientation skills. The top-end people who do it, do so as a running event but for majority of others this isn't so.

What they were amazed at was the equipment (or lack of it) such as gaiters that didn't work. All hillwalkers know that you can go too far on sore feet and it just makes for a miserable day(s) out.

An example of this is the 91k stage this year. For most people the average was 24hr give or take some. This equates to 3.8k/hr. Not much running there, even if you take into account taking quite long breaks.

Like to get others peoples opinions or am I way off? For someone to do this event and not have poles or fully funtioning gaiters for example I would have thought would be very much a major mistake and would be a first day error of someone going out hillwalking on moderate terrain that they wouldn't make again. Begs the question of specific training done in preparation for this event

Another side issue, I also came across was the mini-marathon debate. why isn't there such ill-will towards the MdS as from my estimation above there isn't much running done in the event. Or is that people like the "kudos" that might come from doing a "similar" event? I think people need to get over themselves, no one really gives a damn what you do with your spare time (apart from you, your friends and/or partner). If you get upset about such issues, are you really doing the sport for the right reasons i.e. for someones approval or to show that you're "better" than someone else. Remember that a marathon is defined also as "any long or arduous task or event".

any comments?

--amadeus--

I'll leave this open for now for the giggles but that is a spectacularly ham fisted attempt at getting a rise out of people.


and i wonder what a BA squaddie is, is it like the YMCA and what kind of endurance events do they do?

hunnymonster

Tomthumbs , why don't you do both the MiniMarathon and the MdS and come back with a comparison for us. I'm sure lots of people would be interested. After all, this is a very busy forum so more than "you, your friends and/or partner" tend to have an interest in these things:D

not many people have feet like below from the mini-marathon

--amadeus--

Pffft, that's only iodine. You wanna see my blisters after I've been walking the dog...

Anyway now you've de-lurked feel free to lock this - I just wanted to see your full blown righteous indignation in action

hunnymonster

naw not indignent, anyone is entitled to an opinion, I have to say I loved my full nights sleep on the 91 km stage and if that makes me a hillwalker then so be it!

TheRoadRunner

hunnymonster wrote: »

not many people have feet like below from the mini-marathon

Ouch, that looks incredibly nasty.

Hunneymonster, did MdS live up to your expectations and would you recommend it as an event ?

I'm not really into ultra events myself but always thought if I were to do an ultra/multi day event it would be MdS. After reading some of your reports I was seriously put off though as it seemed liked organised torture. Have previous years been as brutal or was 2009 an outlier ?

tomsthumb

I didn't mean to cause offence. But I see it as a particulalry relevant question. People look to these fora for information, advice and discussion.
From the pictures of your feet, I can only imagine the pain. So having someone ask is it an ultrarunning event would seem to be out of order, but just because a Moderator has done the event, I don't think its off limits to discuss all aspacts of this event, whatever they be.

It seems as if calling a hilltrekking event is equivalent to saying it wasn't worth the hassle and so I'm slagging them off, that isn't so. Its just that on a athletics/running/triathlon forum it should be up for discussion.

The Badwater ultramarathon is what I'd consider the zenith of ultrarunning, for qualification for this is quite strict, form their rules:
"100 continious miles" means literally 100 continuous miles. Stage races such as MdS and RTP do not count towards the minimum qualifying standards.

As for --amadeus-- childish ad hom reference below to a gay band shows your ability to have a proper discussion

and i wonder what a BA squaddie is, is it like the YMCA and what kind of endurance events do they do?

A BA squaddie is a British Army recruit.

So my original question is; Is MdS hilltreking or ultrarunning or a mixture of both?

hunnymonster

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Hunneymonster, did MdS live up to your expectations and would you recommend it as an event ?

I'm not really into ultra events myself but always thought if I were to do an ultra/multi day event it would be MdS. After reading some of your reports I was seriously put off though as it seemed liked organised torture. Have previous years been as brutal or was 2009 an outlier ?

It was a great event and a lot of fun but no I don't think it lives up to it's tagline of the "worlds toughest footrace". Different people find different aspects difficult (the distance, the pack weight, the terrain, the heat, the camping, the hygiene....) but I found a lot of it mundane, awful word to use but appropiate. So many people saying "this has changed me and my life", I just didn't get that, probably because I completely lost my appetite so did 133km on just 800 kcal. I knew to do this, I had to go very conservatively (stay aerobic) so I wasn't pushed the way the injured, sick or racing snakes were.

As for badwater, I like the look of the event but the organisers are a bit strange and to be honest, to me, they are more than a little snobbish. I have been asked to do Badwater but it's not on my agenda just yet. I quite fancy the spartathon soon and maybe the sandbaggers indonesia challenge. Friends who have done the whole gambit of "hard" races always say they found the jungle marathon the most difficult, having hiked in humid jungle, I can well believe that. The same guys also say, if you're after MDS type events there are better (and cheaper) alternatives out there. One they often recommend is http://www.extrememarathons.com/. Another one to consider if you want something hard is 6633 :-)

MrCreosote

Tomsthumb- Does it really matter if it's running, walking, crawling or any combination of the these. Read your opening post again- on one hand you complain about people needing to get over themselves and not to be too snobbish about an event, and on the other hand you're arguing whether the MdS is walking or running- running being superior I take it.
It is what it is- a multistage endurance race.

Nice blisters on the picture by the way! Where do the feet begin and the blisters end?

Zuppy

If the British Army is your bench standard for Ultra events then you are in trouble. :-) The RAF are sooo much better. (Slagging all done now, needed to get it outta my system)

I am surprised you consider walking not to be hard enough. As if you ask any Ultra runner and all the MdS people bar a handful of elites. You have to walk at some stage. 25min on 5 mins off or whatever system you wish. And the Ultra walkers are in no way inferior to the runners. I saw in the MdS this year one ex olympic walker (UK) cruise passed many a runner.

Yes the MdS is billed as the toughest race in the world (I do not agree with any race, including Badwater using this title) but more importantly it is one of the original and in my opinion one of the better run races I have been to (in the world )

91km stage this year; the low speed was more a product of the terrain than the runners. Mr Bauer's route finders (Pisteurs) have got to be some of the most sadistic people around. I managed it in under 16hrs. I walked most of it. And came in ahead of most of the runners who whipped my ass in the other stages. Walking and knowing when to run is more important that trying to run it all. Especially as the route was pretty unknown and the map was next to useless. Usually the Map book would be helpful but this year due to the weather the course was rewritten day to day. The unknown made people hold back.

If your interested in the biggest mass running event in Ireland, the mini marathon, post on the other thread, but my opinion is that it is a great event and does suffer from its unforunate title. It is not a Marathon, and not to belittle your definition but in athletics a marathon is 26.2 miles. Anything longer is an Ultra marathon (even if it is only 27miles). Anything shorter is just not a marathon to me.

Back to slagging: YMCA was never a gay band. Your thinking of the village people. YMCA was a single by them. But then again I am not sure if one of them was a cop or a BA squaddie, they all sing the same.

Zuppy

PS: A very good friend of mine did Badwater and he is an impressive runner. He walked at a few points, even sat down. Just don't say it too loud to anyone they might think the race is easy. :eek::eek:

Enduro

If the British Army is your bench standard for Ultra events then you are in trouble. :-)

So very true. In the adventure racing world (where the races can be multiday non-stop) forces teams rarely do too well. I know that I've always taken part on the inter services challenges here in Ireland on a civilian team, and we've always beaten the forces teams.

Zuppy

I have always wondered about why the civilian teams do so much better. Being curious and all.

I mean the cops, ambulance and fire teams are all on shift work and that has a huge impact on the quality of training. But the Forces? I mean yes they do have a full days work to do but they generally get a small bit of support and have a large pool of people to pick from.

Enduro

From what I've heard from them, the Irish army teams certainly did benifit from some support in work. And indeed it makes sense that they would, since endurance / adventure race training and prowess would be benificial to their role as soldiers. In general the Irish army racers are of a high standard.

In an international context I've seen American forces teams do a lot worse than you would expect at the biggest of the American races. The best theory I've heard to explain it is that they are afraid of showing any weakness in front of each other, and as a result do not benifit from one of the most important aspects of team racing : team-mates helping each other through lows.

Woddle

In the book ultramarathon man, the author comes across 2 military lads in I think an a 100 mile endurance race and as he came upon them in the race one of them was in a bad way, the other was fine but had adopted the you never leave your man behind approach, so maybe a factor also, I dunno

hunnymonster

The forces/civilians debate is an interesting one. Zuppylurk, would I be right in saying that from RAF/GB Army peeps we met this year the women actually did quite well but the men were out classed by the police and paramedics? It's just one event granted and on gut feeling I would agree with Enduro that there could be something in the "show no weekness" aspect hindering teamwork. Enduro, the teams you are invovled in, how much training would you do together, how well would you know each other without backpacks and trainers on.


<off topic>Not being as interested in military history as Zuppylurk, I was very disappointed the first time I met a real life US marine. For some reason I had thought the marines were the supreme physical beings, the guys you could put on a poster in a muscle-head mag. Zuppy took me on an Ironman training week in Lanzarote when I was only learning to swim and cycle and there were a group of US Navy and Marines on the course. The marine was a 4 foot nothing blonde woman who kept "feeling the dream dude!" and biked even worse than I did ... I was sooooo disappointed </OT>

Hard Worker

In the Gobi March last June there was a brother and sister, 19 and 20 year old, combination. Their father had paid for their trip as he thought it might be good for them. However, as it was their first adventure race, he also paid for a US marine to accompany them for their safety. The brother and sister, the youngest competitors in the event, finished proudly. The US marine pulled out after day 4 of the 6 stage event.

Stupid_Private

Hard Worker wrote: »

In the Gobi March last June there was a brother and sister, 19 and 20 year old, combination. Their father had paid for their trip as he thought it might be good for them. However, as it was their first adventure race, he also paid for a US marine to accompany them for their safety. The brother and sister, the youngest competitors in the event, finished proudly. The US marine pulled out after day 4 of the 6 stage event.

Heheh - I would love to be able to hire a marine to accompany me to events! Maybe someone from the French Foreign Legion actually. No one would stop you from pushing your way to the front in Ballycotton then....

--amadeus--

I read a book on the history of the SAS a while back and they were talking about some of the major characters from the regiments history. One guy in particular they wanted to emphasis his endurance and tougness so they described him as "... a long legged marathon runner...". Good to know that even the military elite look up to us

On why the teams may not do so well I think rest may be an element. In most regiments - and especially the "tougher" ones - there will be a lot of physical training over and above race prep which will prevent proper rest. And those guys tend to be quite competitive so training in a team environment they may drift into a "race every training run" mindset, again worsening performance compared to those who train smarter.

I wonder if there is some artificial selection going on. The likes of the UK/US Marines, Paras and so on are really selected and trained more on outright strength and endurance. Carrying bergens over teh Brecon Beacons for 48 hours straight will teach you to keep going when the going is tough but won't make you fast.

HM - when we were in Dubai we spent a day at a water park that was heaving with US Marines on R&R from Iraq. They were all humble, polite and friendly - the lillte fella bottled it at the top of a huge slide and we had to walk back down the stairs past the queue - loads of teh Marines were trying to cheer him up and they were all really sound. And they looked bloody tough (of course being from Donegal I could have taken them..)

HardyEustace

--amadeus-- wrote: »

HM - when we were in Dubai we spent a day at a water park that was heaving with US Marines on R&R from Iraq. They were all humble, polite and friendly - the lillte fella bottled it at the top of a huge slide and we had to walk back down the stairs past the queue - loads of teh Marines were trying to cheer him up and they were all really sound. And they looked bloody tough (of course being from Donegal I could have taken them..)

That's the first time I've heard you refer to yourself in that manner Amadeus...

Enduro

In the book ultramarathon man

Oh dear! The Ego has landed.

Enduro, the teams you are invovled in, how much training would you do together, how well would you know each other without backpacks and trainers on.

It varies. I've done races where teams have been arranged without ever meeting up before arriving at the race, and they have been very successful. But that does depend on everyone being good to begin with.

In general though, when IrishAR (The team/squad I'm part of) enter a race we'll train together from a long way out. 5 or 6 months wouldn't be unusual. We wouldn't do all our training together, but would certainly tend to meet up for kayak sessions, some MTB spins, and the odd long runs. Weekends and long weekends of big sessions would also feature. Specialist training (like ropework) would usually be done en-mass. These days we do more stuff involving the broader squad.

We'd tend to be good friends. Its inevitable with the ammount of time spent in each others company. Especially on races!

On why the teams may not do so well I think rest may be an element. In most regiments - and especially the "tougher" ones - there will be a lot of physical training over and above race prep which will prevent proper rest. And those guys tend to be quite competitive so training in a team environment they may drift into a "race every training run" mindset, again worsening performance compared to those who train smarter.

That's an interesting point. Hadn't considered that. I don't think it would apply to the Irish lads though!

I wonder if there is some artificial selection going on. The likes of the UK/US Marines, Paras and so on are really selected and trained more on outright strength and endurance. Carrying bergens over teh Brecon Beacons for 48 hours straight will teach you to keep going when the going is tough but won't make you fast.

That would be ideal adventure racing prep. They really should be kicking arse. AR is all about toughness and survival first and foremost. And that's where I've observed the American forces failing. (No such issues with the BA lads and lassies I've encountered)

Zuppy

I just know from my limited experience is that the Army lads I have met seem to be individually fit tough and mentally strong. So I am surprised that a civilian team beats them but I offer two thoughts:

1. Civilian pool of competitors is larger

2. Armed forces seem to stay within their units as opposed to choosing the best possible team from across the spectrum.

3. Maybe the Organisation of sports within the armed forces is not the best for coordinating between various units and commands. (never having served, I have no idea)