Flight 1549 ditching

McCrack

Sorry for making a new thread on this but I couldnt find an older one.
The more I read up on this the more incredible it all seems. There are a couple of Q's I have on this that maybe somebody involved in the airline business might answer or add to.

Firstly from looking at the altitude and map why did the captain not turn the aircraft around the moment it lost thrust and glide it back to La Guardia? Would this just be impossible in the circumstances where there is no power? Is it possible to land a turbofan engine aircraft without power on a typical runway relying on just the wheel brakes?

Also the ATC seemed to be able to tell exactly where the aircraft was positioned, he was able to say that it was flying closely over the George Washington Bridge. Does ATC see and know of every aircraft that flies in a given area or does each aircraft have to register with them and does ATC have a exact position of an aircraft say at 30,000ft half way across the Atlantic?

Would a light aircraft like a Cessna be easier (for want of a better word) to ditch successfully in a river than an Airbus or does the same risks apply and finally would what happened in the Hudson happen if the aircraft had to ditch in the ocean..would a choppy sea just make it completely impossible to do?

Cheers.

Foggy43

McCrack wrote: »

Firstly from looking at the altitude and map why did the captain not turn the aircraft around the moment it lost thrust and glide it back to La Guardia? Would this just be impossible in the circumstances where there is no power? Is it possible to land a turbofan engine aircraft without power on a typical runway relying on just the wheel brakes?

Turning and banking the aircraft would have resulted in a loss of altitude and speed.
It is possible to land turbofans on a runway with loss of engine power.

McCrack wrote: »

Also the ATC seemed to be able to tell exactly where the aircraft was positioned, he was able to say that it was flying closely over the George Washington Bridge. Does ATC see and know of every aircraft that flies in a given area or does each aircraft have to register with them and does ATC have a exact position of an aircraft say at 30,000ft half way across the Atlantic?

ATC do not see all aircraft in a given area. It depends on what equipment the aircraft carry info for identification purposes. An ATC person may have visual and on radar of an aircraft but have no idea who it is. The aircraft providing it has the equipment gives altitude, ID and heading to ATC.
Crossing the atlantic there is no radar contact. Flight crews give info to ATC as to where they should be for every hour until they are back in radar contact. HF radio is used and the crew report their position hourly. GPS could be used but getting all airlines to agree is another mater.

McCrack wrote: »

Would a light aircraft like a Cessna be easier (for want of a better word) to ditch successfully in a river than an Airbus or does the same risks apply and finally would what happened in the Hudson happen if the aircraft had to ditch in the ocean..would a choppy sea just make it completely impossible to do?

It is a question of pure luck when ditching in water. In theory it should be a whole lot easier land on the Hudson river rather than a choppy sea. A Super Puma ditched safely in the North Sea in very bad conditionns. A huge wave came up under the Puma cushoning the ditch and all survived.
A Cessna? Pure luck required I would think.

tracker-man

well answered foggy.
I would add that ditching a cessna would be just as difficult if not more difficult than an airliner, but by no means impossible.

BrianD

McCrack wrote: »

Firstly from looking at the altitude and map why did the captain not turn the aircraft around the moment it lost thrust and glide it back to La Guardia? Would this just be impossible in the circumstances where there is no power? Is it possible to land a turbofan engine aircraft without power on a typical runway relying on just the wheel brakes?

Commercial passenger aircraft can 'glide' for long durations if they have the height. In this case, the pilot did not have the advantage of height. This Air Transat 'flew' for 19 min without power over the Atlantic after running out of fuel (landed in the Azores). The plane landed very hard, bursting tyres and a number of passengers were injured (two seriously). The plane is still in service.

Flight 1549 was also in the middle of a major metropolitan and I'm sure that this influenced heavily the pilots decisions. There was a good documentary on 1549 on TV recently and you can how close he was to Manhatten.

Also the ATC seemed to be able to tell exactly where the aircraft was positioned, he was able to say that it was flying closely over the George Washington Bridge. Does ATC see and know of every aircraft that flies in a given area or does each aircraft have to register with them and does ATC have a exact position of an aircraft say at 30,000ft half way across the Atlantic?

A lot of the ATC radio talk seemed to be after the fact and relied on reports from other aircraft in the area such as helicopters that had visual contact with the aircraft. I presume that ATC can see on radar every aircraft that is above a certain height in their zone.

Would a light aircraft like a Cessna be easier (for want of a better word) to ditch successfully in a river than an Airbus or does the same risks apply and finally would what happened in the Hudson happen if the aircraft had to ditch in the ocean..would a choppy sea just make it completely impossible to do?

Cheers.

Probably would depend on conditions. 1549 had just about ideal conditions and I suspect that nearly every other variable apart from the pilot skill was complete good fortune. Interesting to note that they never did press the 'ditch' button when making the landing.

andy_g

another example of a aircraft gliding was the gimli glider hope thats how its spelt its an air canada 767 as far as im aware glided in with no power and landed on a disused airforce base where the captain had served ok he didn't realise the they had converted the runway into a raceway but its another example of a great landing also the aircraft in question also remains in service today. here is the reg of the gimli glider as it is today C-GAUN

pclancy

I've often wondered how a GA aircraft would fair in a ditching as Wellington airport is the only flat land within miles and ditching is the only choice we'd have if there was an engine failure during takeoff or when in the circuit. There is high terrain either side of the runway so depending on altitude the harbour or a beach would be my choice.



As you can see there are a few beaches nearby which I would probably aim for as long as they werent full of people, i'd get it right down to min speed and try put it down in the surf pointing into the wind. I doubt anyone would survive a high speed impact in a GA aircraft, the key would be to land slow enough and get out before it flips or sinks. Tomahawks are flimsy old things so I wouldnt be hugely confident but id have to give it a go!

Danbo!

andy_g wrote: »

another example of a aircraft gliding was the gimli glider hope thats how its spelt its an air canada 767 as far as im aware glided in with no power and landed on a disused airforce base where the captain had served ok he didn't realise the they had converted the runway into a raceway but its another example of a great landing also the aircraft in question also remains in service today. here is the reg of the gimli glider as it is today C-GAUN

For anyone who hasn't seen the air crash investigation episode based on this incident, you should really check it out. It wasn't a simple matter of just gliding in. The pilot, who also flew gliders as a hobby, 'slipped' the aircraft almost onto its side to lose speed and altitude... Incredible stuff..

Wiki story here

Mr Benevolent

C-GAUN

It's C-GUAN, and it went out of service a few months ago.

*Kol*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MHy6yy3Z00

Owen

FTFY!

tracker-man

ned78 wrote: »

FTFY!

Explain please?

*Kol*

Fixed That For You??

tracker-man

ah

andy_g

Confab wrote: »

It's C-GUAN, and it went out of service a few months ago.

ah myself and my FO were only talking about it the other day hadn't realised she was now of service.

cyrusdvirus

BrianD wrote: »

Interesting to note that they never did press the 'ditch' button when making the landing.

According to the documenntary i saw the ditching manual hypothesises that you start off at altitude.... LOTS of altitude, and the prompt to press the ditch button is right at the end of the checklist. They would never have gotten through the checklist to get to that prompt

*Kol*

gatecrash wrote: »

According to the documenntary i saw the ditching manual hypothesises that you start off at altitude.... LOTS of altitude, and the prompt to press the ditch button is right at the end of the checklist. They would never have gotten through the checklist to get to that prompt

As far as I remenber the ditching button closes the inlet and out let for the avionics cooling, and the outflow valve. Not a benefit if the plane breaks up but in this case could have kept it floating a lot longer.

cyrusdvirus

*Kol* wrote: »

As far as I remenber the ditching button closes the inlet and out let for the avionics cooling, and the outflow valve. Not a benefit if the plane breaks up but in this case could have kept it floating a lot longer.

Did the tail section not suffer a fracture? With a hull breach the plane would have sunk either way.

Or was that brought on by the vents for the avionics bay being open?

*Kol*

gatecrash wrote: »

Did the tail section not suffer a fracture? With a hull breach the plane would have sunk either way.

Or was that brought on by the vents for the avionics bay being open?

I didn't hear about the hull fracture. If the out flow valve was open that would have allowed the aft cargo to fill up with water anyway.