Cork-Dublin Rail Service

Fnergg

Why is the train so slow?

This morning the 7:30am Cork train didn't arrive in Heuston until 10:40. "Speed restrictions" was the excuse.

Even at the best of times the train still takes nearly 3 hours in each direction.

Every other country seems to be developing high speed rail services to lure travellers away from their cars but in Ireland our new trains are travelling slower than the old ones.

Regards,

Fnergg

DWCommuter

Fnergg wrote: »

Why is the train so slow?

This morning the 7:30am Cork train didn't arrive in Heuston until 10:40. "Speed restrictions" was the excuse.

Even at the best of times the train still takes nearly 3 hours in each direction.

Every other country seems to be developing high speed rail services to lure travellers away from their cars but in Ireland our new trains are travelling slower than the old ones.

Regards,

Fnergg

The Inchicore lads are playing with their model railway again.

They're not there yet, but they're getti....ah forget it.

Chris_533976

THE BUS FROM GALWAY was going faster than the train between Mallow and Cork the other day. Honestly, we overtook it and it was one of the new ones too.

I really thought Mallow - Cork would be a reasonably fast run for the train. Dual tracked and looks fairly new.

flazio

Chris_533976 wrote: »

THE BUS FROM GALWAY was going faster than the train between Mallow and Cork the other day. Honestly, we overtook it and it was one of the new ones too.

I really thought Mallow - Cork would be a reasonably fast run for the train. Dual tracked and looks fairly new.

Where do buses from Galway drive anywhere near trains from Cork?
Anyway Dublin - Cork despite getting snazzy new carriages are still been driven by those Class 201s.

Gruffalo

flazio wrote: »

Where do buses from Galway drive anywhere near trains from Cork?

City link have a bus from Galway to Cork via Limerick. He said it was between Mallow and Cork.

Chris_533976

Cork - Dublin rail line goes via Charleville. The Cork-Galway bus parallels the whole of that part of the route.

Carawaystick

I'd say it'd be possible to drive from Cork to Dublin in less than 3 hours while staying below the speed limit. If not, it will by the end of May when the M8 will go from Watergrasshill to Cullahill

Blush_01

Staying within the speed limit, and staying behind a slow-moving truck part of the way, it takes 64 minutes to get from the Kildare town exit to the Cashel exit on the main road. Depending on where you are in Cork, and where in Dublin you want to go, you'd easily get to Cork in 3 hours or less.

The Dublin-Cork train is so frustrating. Crawling along between Heuston and Kildare is irritating, crawling through Ballybrophy is a joke (especially as the train steams through other stations)... and it's bloody expensive.

Fnergg

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd say it'd be possible to drive from Cork to Dublin in less than 3 hours while staying below the speed limit. If not, it will by the end of May when the M8 will go from Watergrasshill to Cullahill

I drove from Newlands Cross to Cork city centre in 2 hours 15 mins recently. I kept to the speed limit too (well, mostly). I figure that when the Fermoy/Mitchelstown section opens in May it will be possible to do the journey in 2 hours in optimum conditions (i.e. if there are no hold ups in Abbeyleix).

Regards,

Fnergg

Stark

I remember being able to get a train from Dublin to Cork in 2 and a half hours a few years ago. Now it's always close to 3 hours. It's backwards we're going.

KC61

Fnergg wrote: »

Why is the train so slow?

This morning the 7:30am Cork train didn't arrive in Heuston until 10:40. "Speed restrictions" was the excuse.

Even at the best of times the train still takes nearly 3 hours in each direction.

Every other country seems to be developing high speed rail services to lure travellers away from their cars but in Ireland our new trains are travelling slower than the old ones.

Regards,

Fnergg

There has been a 75mph speed restriction imposed from Portlaoise to Newbridge in both directions since last week. While the trains are capable of 100mph+, the track is not. It has taken a lot of bashing from the 201 class locomotives, and a complete relaying is needed on the Cork route, but this seems to be moving backwards on the funding list.

This is I believe a permanent speed restriction which means it'll be around for some time to come while the permanent way gangers work on the track at night.

invincibleirish

Surely the KRP will speed up the journey time a bit? I've been on it a few times recently off peak and it was around 2:50. Beyond that will it not take some serious cash and work to reduce times?.

Davy

Stark wrote: »

I remember being able to get a train from Dublin to Cork in 2 and a half hours a few years ago. Now it's always close to 3 hours. It's backwards we're going.

That must have been a non-stop?,,, dont every remember apart from that, being that quick

kingshankly

Speed restrictions are there for our safety but unfortunatly can delay services. The line in question there is plenty of work being done so take for example new rails have been put in and are secured with plates there will probably be a 25 mph speed restriction in place until it can be welded, now take into account slowing down and getting back up to speed you can loose 5 or 6 minutes very easily and that is just one

KC61

Stark wrote: »

I remember being able to get a train from Dublin to Cork in 2 and a half hours a few years ago. Now it's always close to 3 hours. It's backwards we're going.

The reality is that the line has suffered from numerous temporary speed restrictions at various locations for one reason or another, be they crossovers that need renewing, half-barrier level crossings, and general track condition. This is what has slowed the service down.

To get back to the pre-1997 journey times would require that all of these temporary restrictions are lifted, and to be honest the whole line needs a complete relaying.

Some of the temporary restrictions, such as the 30mph restriction at Portarlington have already been removed, and Ballybrophy station trackwork was recently renewed. However, there is always a bedding-in period once trackwork is completed before the speed limits can be raised. The trackwork at Limerick Junction needs to be completely renewed - there is a 25mph restriction there.

All of these cost time, labour and cash - and these are not in plentiful supply given that the track teams are busy with Midleton, Pace, WRC and the KRP.

The KRP will deliver improved speeds at peak hours where express Intercity services are currently delayed by slower local services as they will now be on separate tracks.

Unfortunately I can't see many significant improvements in general journey times on the Cork route until the necessary renewal works are implemented, especially given a 20 mile stretch of 75 mph restricted track.

donvito99

What speed do ye think could be achieved if the entire Cork-Dublin route was renewed?

Stark

Dublin-Cork in 2 hours was the figure I've heard thrown around.

donvito99

Cool, and the current locos are capable of what, 125mph?

Stark

Yeah I've heard 200km/hr (125mph) is their rated speed.

FIRE

My normal travel route is Dublin - Cork.

2 Weeks ago I got the train and couldnt believe how slow it was going, until around newbridge, then it speeded up.

It took over 3 hours to get to cork. and €56.00

Now when I drive,and I mostly do a tank of petrol costs me €50.00 and sticking to the speed limit from Raheny in Dublin to Cork City centre takes me 2.45 to 3 hrs depending on conditions etc.

Then as for Ryanair, 30 or so mins flight, and just got a ticket for €19.00

So I think if the train is too slow, opt for an occasional flight.

Chris_533976

... and sit on the bus for 45 minutes trying to get into Dublin after you've fought to get through immigration even though youre a domestic passenger.

Car will win

road_high

I would have though this track was renewed in the 1990s along with almost all the track across the country.

This is what is going to happen when the Interurbans are finsihed...less and less people are going to spend up to 3 hours trundling along between Cork, Limerick, Waterford or Galway and pay through the nose for "convenience".

It will be left to pensioners with passes and those with more time and money than sense.
An express bus service between the centres could be a hammer blow to rail. Will be interesting to see what passanger numbers will be like in coming years and will they hold up?

invincibleirish

So anyway does anyone want to give a ballpark figure for electrification of the line and renewal/realignment where necessary?

FIRE

Chris_533976 wrote: »

... and sit on the bus for 45 minutes trying to get into Dublin after you've fought to get through immigration even though youre a domestic passenger.

Car will win

Well I use quickpark and am only 15mins from the Airport so it's grand for me.

murphaph

Irish Rail (for whatever reason, be it cash starvation or whatever) is a joke compared to Deutsche Bahn and any competent railway. They're relaying the line between Berlin and Hamburg (250,000 sleepers) in 3 and a half months to increase line speed. We bought flasy trains when we should have kept the 125mph capable MkIIIs in service and just spent the cash on the Cork line itself, brining it up to 200km/h and bought a few 200km/h capable locomotives to haul the sets. Germany still has some very old locomotives and coaching stock in service....because they build and maintain them properly, refitting rather than replacing. They then have cash to spend on infrastructure. The MkIIIs are as good as anything and are perfectly comfortable for what should be a sub 2 hour journey.

road_high

Yes indeed. No point having shiny new carriages and rolling stock only to have them trundling along at patheticly low speeds. They should have sorted the track first.

KC61

mfitzy wrote: »

I would have though this track was renewed in the 1990s along with almost all the track across the country.

The Cork line was relaid in the 1970s but has taken an absolute bashing from the 201 Class locos on the push/pull hourly Cork service.

The rest of the network (except for the branch lines which are currently being renewed in phases) was relaid and resignalled over the last 10 years.

Significant work is being done at night - but it is very very slow.

dowlingm

My recollection is that the 201s are rated to 100mph (160km/h) and the rolling stock to 125mph-200km/h. The 201s have been run faster than that for safety testing but they are heavy locos - a 200km/h train would likely have two driving cars to reduce the weight of each compared to the big 201 and the impact it has on trackage.

Carawaystick

Stark wrote: »

Dublin-Cork in 2 hours was the figure I've heard thrown around.

There's a sign near the pink link at the northern end of the Glanmire bypass saying Dublin 240ish km ( i think 241 but could be 243 or so, low 240's anyway)
It's about 15 km from Cork.
So <260km @ 120km/h is less than the two and a half hours average time to get there by train if there's an hourly 2hour service ( including the average half hour wait time til the train leaves.)
And this is CIE's best case for the train? with all the bells and whistles pulled out?

KC61

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's a sign near the pink link at the northern end of the Glanmire bypass saying Dublin 240ish km ( i think 241 but could be 243 or so, low 240's anyway)
It's about 15 km from Cork.
So <260km @ 120km/h is less than the two and a half hours average time to get there by train if there's an hourly 2hour service ( including the average half hour wait time til the train leaves.)
And this is CIE's best case for the train? with all the bells and whistles pulled out?

Dublin / Cork is 165.5 miles by rail.

kingshankly

In order for our trains to run at speeds people are suggesting the rail itself would need to be replaced probably a 60 kg would be needed

T Corolla

The Huestom line is very busy seven days a week with almost 90% of the intercity rail services funning from it and using the same tracks all the way to Portarlington. In order to improve times they need to move one intercity service to Connolly I suggest that the Westport/ Ballina train be merged with the Sligo train and reopen the Mullingar to Athlone railway and have passenger change in Mullingar onto a different train bound for the west or for little or no cost merge the existing Galway and Westport train into a single service and passenger for Westport Ballina change trains in Athlone to free up slots on the Hueston Line. If the line from Athlone to Mullingar was reopened you could in up the Galway service to hourly and passenger from the west and north west could all go onto one train connolly bound and CIE would bring down the cost of running these services significantly. This would be achieved by having the Galway train pass through the tullamore for one service and pass mullingar the next service and they could merge all westport/ballina passengers at Athlone and all Sligo passenger at Mullingar. They would need something similar to the Cork train but it would save in the long run without impacting on existing services

KC61

T Corolla wrote: »

The Huestom line is very busy seven days a week with almost 90% of the intercity rail services funning from it and using the same tracks all the way to Portarlington. In order to improve times they need to move one intercity service to Connolly I suggest that the Westport/ Ballina train be merged with the Sligo train and reopen the Mullingar to Athlone railway and have passenger change in Mullingar onto a different train bound for the west or for little or no cost merge the existing Galway and Westport train into a single service and passenger for Westport Ballina change trains in Athlone to free up slots on the Hueston Line. If the line from Athlone to Mullingar was reopened you could in up the Galway service to hourly and passenger from the west and north west could all go onto one train connolly bound and CIE would bring down the cost of running these services significantly. This would be achieved by having the Galway train pass through the tullamore for one service and pass mullingar the next service and they could merge all westport/ballina passengers at Athlone and all Sligo passenger at Mullingar. They would need something similar to the Cork train but it would save in the long run without impacting on existing services

Once the KRP is complete, capacity issues will be minimal. There are more than enough slots to operate a Cork, Limerick, Galway/Westport, and Waterford service every hour if they so wanted, along with local services and additional trains (e.g. Tralee or second train to the West).

Capacity out of Heuston will not be the issue - the real issue currently is the state of the track - that is what is holding things up.

There are plans for Athlone/Westport shuttles connecting into/out of Galway services, but you could not do that with every train as certain Westport trains carry standing loads west of Athlone.

As for routing via Mullingar, this route is slower, longer and has far greater capacity issues due to the intensive suburban services between Maynooth/Clonsilla and Connolly.

DWCommuter

Three years ago on this very forum, I predicted that the inter urbans would kill off inter city rail in Ireland. Other countries recognised the battle that rail had to fight against the motorway. Our rail system is a 20th century system, despite the IE spin of having the most modern fleet in Europe.

There's a lot of talk about priorities here, but if we weren't wasting money on the WRC then the Cork line could have its relay. I'd even go as far as saying that the core routes are most important as they feed everything else. They should have been the absolute priority in terms of getting them up to at least 100mph. It annoys me to see senior IE managers talk positively about the WRC while seemingly content with curvey welded track,modern signalling, but deplorably low speeds elsewhere. A 21st century railway is about competitiveness. Our investment programme made things safe. It did not deliver an efficient, competitive and value for money system.

All transport projects undertaken in Ireland remind me of the poor old chap who built a brand new conservatory at the back of his house. It looked great, but the windows in his house were on the verge of falling out.

T Corolla

DWCommuter wrote: »

Three years ago on this very forum, I predicted that the inter urbans would kill off inter city rail in Ireland. Other countries recognised the battle that rail had to fight against the motorway. Our rail system is a 20th century system, despite the IE spin of having the most modern fleet in Europe.

There's a lot of talk about priorities here, but if we weren't wasting money on the WRC then the Cork line could have its relay. I'd even go as far as saying that the core routes are most important as they feed everything else. They should have been the absolute priority in terms of getting them up to at least 100mph. It annoys me to see senior IE managers talk positively about the WRC while seemingly content with curvey welded track,modern signalling, but deplorably low speeds elsewhere. A 21st century railway is about competitiveness. Our investment programme made things safe. It did not deliver an efficient, competitive and value for money system.

All transport projects undertaken in Ireland remind me of the poor old chap who built a brand new conservatory at the back of his house. It looked great, but the windows in his house were on the verge of falling out.

I agree with you 100% The WRC is only a political promise and will deliver very little in return I suggest a more frequent bus services and upgrade the N18 road

T Corolla

KC61 wrote: »

Once the KRP is complete, capacity issues will be minimal. There are more than enough slots to operate a Cork, Limerick, Galway/Westport, and Waterford service every hour if they so wanted, along with local services and additional trains (e.g. Tralee or second train to the West).

Capacity out of Heuston will not be the issue - the real issue currently is the state of the track - that is what is holding things up.

There are plans for Athlone/Westport shuttles connecting into/out of Galway services, but you could not do that with every train as certain Westport trains carry standing loads west of Athlone.

As for routing via Mullingar, this route is slower, longer and has far greater capacity issues due to the intensive suburban services between Maynooth/Clonsilla and Connolly.

Do you argue that the rail link to Galway via Mullingar requires too much investmest as I have live not far from that rail link and it is as good a rail line as there can be in the country all it needs is new tracks and signalling as the layout is quiet straight and should have got the investment that is going to be put into the rail line from Tuam to Clairemorris as it would yield a higher return. I mean there is more of an argument for the rail link to Navan that for one from Tuam to Clairemorris. I would say there are few Westport trains west of Athlone with people standing up as the journey is two hours on after Athlone. I was in favour of the WRC until I paid a visit there last summer and seen how poor laid the line was laid there is harldly and stretch over two mile straight and I have heard of a journey time of 1hr 50 mins from Galway to Limerick which by road about an 1hr 20mins in traffic. That line is a non runner from the start I sorry to be so pesemistic about it

KC61

T Corolla wrote: »

Do you argue that the rail link to Galway via Mullingar requires too much investmest as I have live not far from that rail link and it is as good a rail line as there can be in the country all it needs is new tracks and signalling as the layout is quiet straight and should have got the investment that is going to be put into the rail line from Tuam to Clairemorris as it would yield a higher return. I mean there is more of an argument for the rail link to Navan that for one from Tuam to Clairemorris. I would say there are few Westport trains west of Athlone with people standing up as the journey is two hours on after Athlone. I was in favour of the WRC until I paid a visit there last summer and seen how poor laid the line was laid there is harldly and stretch over two mile straight and I have heard of a journey time of 1hr 50 mins from Galway to Limerick which by road about an 1hr 20mins in traffic. That line is a non runner from the start I sorry to be so pesemistic about it

That's not what I am saying.

What I am saying is the following:
1) Athlone - Dublin via Mullingar is longer and slower than via Portarlington due to:
a) The permanent way between Mullingar and Dublin - line curvature and max line speed
b) There is and will be an more intensive suburban service between Maynooth and Clonsilla and Connolly with which any additional trains would have to shar the track.

2) Operating trains via Portarlington has the benefit of higher speed limits on the Dublin-Cork line (albeit restricted at present) and will benefit from the segregation of suburban stopping services and intercity services that the KRP four tracking will provide

3) There are plans for some additional Westport-Athlone shuttles already that will connect into/out of Dublin-Galway services at Athlone, but you could not do that with the peak services which often carry full loads on a 6 Car train west of Athlone.

4) An hourly Dublin-Galway or Westport service can be operated with existing infrastructure, which incidentally is not overloaded out of Heuston. In any hour it is possible to operate a service to Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Waterford, Galway, Westport, and two commuter services. That only happens at peak hours. For the rest of the day there is plenty of free paths.

I would suggest that Athlone-Dublin could be operated as perhaps an additional commuter route, but I can't really see it as a viable alternative Intercity route as for the reasons above it is slower and longer.

DWCommuter

Shocking, but not that surprising really. CAF have an office in Hueston and that was always a bad sign. Theyre not the worst train builder in the world, but those Cork trains are piles of ****e and I said it 3 years ago. Tin cans.

So is the ride quality the fault of the track, guage, coach or the big **** off American loco at the other end? Who knows?

Vic Berry is waiting.:D

Judgement Day

This hot from the Irish Govt. e tender site.

Title: Ride comfort modification MK 4 carriages
Published by: Iarnrod Eireann-Irish Rail
Publication Date: 20/04/2009
Application Deadline:
Notice Deadline Date: 27/05/2009
Notice Deadline Time: 12:00
Notice Type: Utility - Contract Notice
Has Documents: No
Abstract: Irish Rail have procured a modern fleet of 67 passenger coaches that operate on an Intercity service. The fleet is 3 years old and the ride comfort of the vehicles requires improvement. Recognising that this is a complex issue expressions of interest are invited from companies interesting in bidding for a turnkey project to rectify the ride comfort on the fleet to an agreed performance level.

---

When you add this nonsense to the tenders being sought for retro-fitting Selective Door Opening to the 22000 railcar fleet, is it any wonder CIE/IE is such a disaster. Heads should roll for this sort of cock-up but will they hell. :mad::mad:

highdef

Very very interesting :rolleyes:

corktina

i had the dubious and rare opportunity to travel to Dublin by trian recently...I couldnt hold the paper still enough to do the crossword.....horrible trains and stuck with a great lump of freight engine on one end too.....laughably having a STREAMLINED driving trailer at the other end.Whereas the hourly interval service was a great step forward, something badly needs doing now to improve the comfort before the M8 opens fully....

Stark

It's true. The old trains were a lot more comfortable I thought. Especially unpleasant is that there seems to be feck all room on the new trains between you and whoever you end up seated beside. Now that the M8 is mostly completed, the car is a lot more tempting from the point of view of space and comfort.

bk

Once the MIU is fully completed and M50 upgrade completed, Irish Rail are in serious trouble. As a Corkonian living in Dublin and having many friends the same, all are noticing how slow the trains are and how fast the road is even in its current state.

And just wait for one of the bus companies to lay on direct non stop Cork to Dublin service along the motorway for €20 return, with free wifi and toilet on board, Irish Rail will be in deep trouble then.

DWCommuter

Improving the ride quality on these heaps of ****e will not hold off the advance of the M8. IE are 20 years behind the times in Ireland. Even longer in European terms. Decades of under investment doesn't cut it with me anymore.

Forget the WRC. 100 million on the premier line would have competed with the car. Politics has killed off the railways in Ireland. Watch the inter urbans from next year, eat into rail traffic via private car and express bus.

Im a fortune teller. I predicted it all years ago. Get RUI on the phone and remind them.:D

Judgement Day

bk wrote: »

Once the MIU is fully completed and M50 upgrade completed, Irish Rail are in serious trouble. As a Corkonian living in Dublin and having many friends the same, all are noticing how slow the trains are and how fast the road is even in its current state.

And just wait for one of the bus companies to lay on direct non stop Cork to Dublin service along the motorway for €20 return, with free wifi and toilet on board, Irish Rail will be in deep trouble then.

Irish Rail will not be in serious trouble - people wishing to retain a viable railway system in Ireland will be. Irish Rail don't give a fig - their overpaid managers will take a golden handshake or move off to another semi-state and the unions will make sure their members are looked after with generous redundancy payments - the only people in trouble will be people wishing to travel by rail. :mad:

dowlingm

I think the new trains are a step backwards, I really notice the difference in ride quality on a CAF set over a Mk3, though the new 22000 railcars seem to be better than the Mk4s at least. Taking a plane to Farranfore is something I'm highly considering doing from now on.

dowlingm wrote: »

My recollection is that the 201s are rated to 100mph (160km/h) and the rolling stock to 125mph-200km/h. The 201s have been run faster than that for safety testing but they are heavy locos - a 200km/h train would likely have two driving cars to reduce the weight of each compared to the big 201 and the impact it has on trackage.

The Mk4 sets are currently passed for 100mph operation but with a brake modification (installation of additional pads) they are capable of 125mph. The Mk3s were 125mph capable from the start, being 5'3" variants of their HST counterparts in the UK.

The 201s have an overspeed trip which kicks in at ~103mph. I'm guessing if they went any higher than this then the trip must have been disabled for the test. The 071s, not having any computerised gizmos, can go a lot higher than their rated 89mph.

dermo88

Shall I go over to IRN and gloat?

I already have....too late. Could'nt resist it.

Back in 2005, and I'll pull up the link, I stated.

"Railways in Ireland have a limited future unless they compete on speed and frequency"

But of course, the eyes were on the west, looking at Tuam and Claremorris, overlooking the track on the lynchpin being pounded to bits by Freight engines doing 100mph. Inappropriate at best, foolish at worst.

And now, unfortunately, it comes back to bite. And now, you know why I hated the Western Rail Corridor and all it represented. It was nothing less than dog dirt in a silk stocking. I told you so. I said that the Interconnector and Navan were the way forward. But....thats why I don't post as much anymore.

Nostradamus

Abstract: Irish Rail have procured a modern fleet of 67 passenger coaches that operate on an Intercity service. The fleet is 3 years old and the ride comfort of the vehicles requires improvement. Recognising that this is a complex issue expressions of interest are invited from companies interesting in bidding for a turnkey project to rectify the ride comfort on the fleet to an agreed performance level.

The Mk3's were better by a long run.

Is is just me or are CAF the Lidl of train builders?

murphaph

To be fair to CAF and DeDietrich (defunct) they were asked to build coaches and they built them. The same coaches (or close variants thereof) operate smoothly and comfortably in Continental Europe.

The problem is the permanent way is in bits. The MKIIIs 'work' because they were designed by British Rail for use on their appaling track. They have since improved most of their mainline of course.

The regional trains here are more comfortable than any 'Intercity' train I have ever been on in Ireland (and faster) because the track is laid on proper foundations and is maintained properly. I don't really buy into the whole "201 Class is responsible" thing-a close cousin of the 201 (but heavier) works freight trains without incident in Germany and elsewhere. The 201 isn't too heavy for the track, the track is too light for the 201. The entire Cork line needs rebuilding and straightening. It should be able to support at least 125mph throughout. Most of the work won't even require any land take...compare to the motorway programme.

dowlingm

murphaph - are the 201 equivalents hauling freight at 160km/h? (question not ball hop)