F off FF

Daithinski

How much crap has the irish public to take off the scumbags who run this country?

Today perfectly highlights their out of touch attitude and disrespect for the Irish public. No other country would let their politicians away with this.

TD's get let off the hook, and the taxpayers get screwed (even more).

66 TDs to keep 6400 long service bonuses
Income levy hikes 'to be backdated to start of year'

They went back on their word to benefit themselves and back on their word to screw us a little bit more.

Its well past the time for a general election, these bunch of muppets should have been booted out before they got a chance to wreck the country even more.

the greens would want to show a bit of cahunas and pull the plug, otherwise they are dead in the water come election time.

They are complicit in these scandals and treachery by the irish ruling system (include bankers and developers in this system).

They are letting the FF scum away scot free.

ronaneire

Daithinski wrote: »

How much crap has the irish public to take off the scumbags who run this country?

Today perfectly highlights their out of touch attitude and disrespect for the Irish public. No other country would let their politicians away with this.

TD's get let off the hook, and the taxpayers get screwed (even more).

66 TDs to keep 6400 long service bonuses
Income levy hikes 'to be backdated to start of year'

They went back on their word to benefit themselves and back on their word to screw us a little bit more.

Its well past the time for a general election, these bunch of muppets should have been booted out before they got a chance to wreck the country even more.

the greens would want to show a bit of cahunas and pull the plug, otherwise they are dead in the water come election time.

They are complicit in these scandals and treachery by the irish ruling system (include bankers and developers in this system).

They are letting the FF scum away scot free.

What about their advisors?? Their pen pushers? All civil servants!! Do you think the FG/Labour would do a better job running the Country? Hardly....

spank_inferno

ronaneire wrote: »

What about their advisors?? Their pen pushers? All civil servants!! Do you think the FG/Labour would do a better job running the Country? Hardly....

that reasoning gets us nowhere.

If FF do a bad job we are duty bound to remove them from power at the next election.

If another party also do a bad job we can remove them from power when the time comes also.

Neither you or I or anyone here can say that FG wouldnt do any better in power. We dont know that because we haven't given them the chance to do so.

Your attitude only helps Fianne Fail do what they do.

Once they see that we will keep electing them because we dismiss the opposition from doing a job they have never had the chance to do, FF will continue taking the irish people for chumps.

MaxFlower

ronaneire wrote: »

What about their advisors?? Their pen pushers? All civil servants!! Do you think the FG/Labour would do a better job running the Country? Hardly....

Yes. Can we please all agree finally that change is a bad thing and never try anything new again - ever!

ronaneire

spank_inferno wrote: »

that reasoning gets us nowhere.

If FF do a bad job we are duty bound to remove them from power at the next election.

If another party also do a bad job we can remove them from power when the time comes also.

Neither you or I or anyone here can say that FG wouldnt do any better in power. We dont know that because we haven't given them the chance to do so.

Your attitude only helps Fianne Fail do what they do.

Once they see that we will keep electing them because we dismiss the opposition from doing a job they have never had the chance to do, FF will continue taking the irish people for chumps.

My attitude? You just had to listen to FG going on about how they were going to create 100,000 new jobs. Where, how and when? Where would they get the money to start... You can't just pull rabbits out of hats.
So lets wait al least another 9 years before we have things going in the right direction...
Also it is just not an Irish thing, it is worldwide. A lot of people seem to forget this, what when this Country was at the height of the Celtic Tiger, did people feel the same way?

bcirl03

FF is 100% to blame.

Who else was running this country over the last decade?

I firmly believe anyone including FG/Labour would do a better job than FF. In fact my 4 year old would have a better grasp on economy than Brian Clown and his Muppet Show.

ronaneire

And for the worlds economy who would you like to blame? :eek:

is_that_so

Well you can take the politicians are "all as bad" attitude , in which case we go nowhere. I'd also suggest that some people posting on the topic don't remember a time when it wasn't FF in Government. Governments only change when people vote to change them. Sure we can come up with all sorts of exotic permutations from the "mythical" right party espoused by some to a colourful coalition of the left wing lunatic fringe but that just spells disaster on an Italian scale.

The plain truth of it is we have three players, two major ones and a third as an occasional kingmaker. If you don't think these parties are doing the right thing, tell them. Email , phone ,letters, go to clinics, do whatever is necessary to get your opinions or ideas across. Otherwise you just end up like the vast bulk of the population in not knowing why a party might be good to vote for.

Incidentally the backdating of tax levies can't really be pinned on the government. It is down to how Revenue have worked things out to cover all bases.

bcirl03

ronaneire wrote: »

And for the worlds economy who would you like to blame? :eek:

Not the governments fault - correct.

However, who would you blame for the over reliance on the housing sector, which in turn has led to the banking crisis.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

bmaxi

An analogy.

I had oil in my car engine, it had been there for 12 years. I had a gallon of new oil in my garage but I wouldn't put it in because I wasn't sure if it would work and my car was still going, although not as well as it had been. Meanwhile underneath the bonnet, sludge and gunge deposits were building up and heat was damaging vital components which would be expensive to replace, this was because the oil had lost all it's integrity and had become corrupted.
Eventually, my engine seized up and needed to be replaced, this was an expensive job and nearly broke me, it also meant that my once reliable car, which I had always kept clean and polished on the outside, was now suspect.
I'll never know whether replacing the oil earlier would have saved me from replacing the engine but I do know that leaving the old oil there only allowed it to become more and more inefficient and cause more and more damage.
This oil can be recovered and reused but it will take a lot of cleaning and additional refining before even parts of it can be used in a motor engine again.

Moral; Replacing the oil regularly, no matter what the brand, leads to better performance and longer engine life.

hallelujajordan

bcirl03 wrote: »

FF is 100% to blame.

Who else was running this country over the last decade?

I firmly believe anyone including FG/Labour would do a better job than FF. In fact my 4 year old would have a better grasp on economy than Brian Clown and his Muppet Show.

FF have not had an overall majority at all in the last decade so it is wrong to hold them 100% to blame. Much of the economic policy during this time was driven by the PD's so Harney, McDowell and Co. need to take some responsibility . .

Right now, the Greens need to take responsibility for allowing this nonsense to continue. While FF can argue that they are doing everything they can to address the situation, the Greens role in government is to keep them honest . . They are the ones who can trigger a general election and right now they are letting the country down. .

Incidentally, I would take a €50 bet off anyone that FF will be returned to government if there were a General Election in the morning. I would favour a National government . . lets get away from party politics for a while and put the right people in place to make the right decisions !

Daithinski

ronaneire wrote: »

And for the worlds economy who would you like to blame? :eek:

Well the tosspots in FF were happy to take all the credit for the booming economy (when the world economy was strong, when the EU gave us money and when the banks were filling the economy with money via mortgages).

And now they try to pass the blame onto the world economy.

Good stuff: Oh we did that!

Bad stuff: That was somebody else.

It what a four year old would try and do.


They can't have it both ways.

ART6

ronaneire wrote: »

And for the worlds economy who would you like to blame? :eek:

There is this guy in the USA that you happen to know. He has just loaned 200 grand to another guy in the States to buy a house. That second guy has a very bad credit rating, clearly cannot repay the debt, and has defaulted on similar ones before, but he has signed to pay 20% interest. The first guy, being a smart operator, decides to limit his exposure a bit, so he comes to you and says "I have this great deal. I own a debt that is paying 20% interest, and I am prepared to give you a slice of the action. Give me 120 grand and you can have half the debt, on which you will recover 20% interest." You, of course, having the interests of your shareholders at heart (and some passing interest in a nice end of year bonus) grab at it. You don't consider it worth doing something called "due diligence" because the deal is simply too good to turn down. You wouldn't, of course, even stop to ask if the debtor can actually pay 20% interest because you are a highly experience professional and you know about such matters.

You don't concern yourself unduly about financial regulation, because the Regulator has never shown the slightest interest in your actions before, and the whole exercise has stimulated your mind. So you now go off and talk to a lot of property developer mates and offer them similar loans at comfortable interest rates, secured only upon land that you know is wildly over valued, but why care? Since the deals have been earning you annual bonuses counted in millions, you are going to be very comfortably off if it does go pear shaped.

Being shrewd, you have of course ensured that the government has also enjoyed a comfortable share of the surge of income from the deals, so that it can claim to have created a tsunami of wealth for the people, and your employer is equally happy for the same reason. The developer's companies now appear to have massive asset values even if they don't actually build anything. None of you have ever heard of the term "Monopoly money", and would not consider it if you had.

But it comes to pass that the whole thing does go pear shaped suddenly, when the guy at the foundation stone of the pyramid can't pay. However, all of you have a perfect defence. It was all his bloody fault for taking the loan in the first place!


And still we ask ourselves "Who is to blame?"

*No, I don't mean you personally ronaneire:D"

Tableman

Do you think the FG/Labour would do a better job running the Country?

I actually think that Richard Bruton would be a better minister for finance than Brian Lenihan and that James Reilly would be a much better helath minister than Mary Harney. I would prefer Brian Hayes as minister of education to Batt O'Keefe (But not to Mary Hanafin)

As uninspiring as Enda Kenny is, I dont think he would be worse than Brian Cowen..

Anyways, the point is that there is plenty of talent in Fine Gael and maybe if they were in power, they would do a better job!

ronaneire

ART6 wrote: »

*No, I don't mean you personally ronaneire:D"

Just as well

ronaneire

bcirl03 wrote: »

Not the governments fault - correct.

However, who would you blame for the over reliance on the housing sector, which in turn has led to the banking crisis.

Greedy builders and investors. Yes I totally agree, the economy was pumped up on the housing sector.
Was anyone complaining when they were making a killing out of it? And by that I don't mean the government.

ART6

ronaneire wrote: »

Just as well

Actually, on reflection, that might not be a bad idea. It's always a good plan to decide that one person is to blame for everything for a set period of time since it saves having to ferret out the real culprit, and if that person is anonymous then everyone from Brian Cowen down to my son's dog can blame him with impunity. FF have been doing it for years. So, ronaneire, if you're not doing anything else for the moment, how about you......er....? For the sake of Ireland and Brian Cowen?:D

ronaneire

ART6 wrote: »

Actually, on reflection, that might not be a bad idea. It's always a good plan to decide that one person is to blame for everything for a set period of time since it saves having to ferret out the real culprit, and if that person is anonymous then everyone from Brian Cowen down to my son's dog can blame him with impunity. FF have been doing it for years. So, ronaneire, if you're not doing anything else for the moment, how about you......er....? For the sake of Ireland and Brian Cowen?:D

Actually I wouldn't have the time right now, but I am sure you would fine many willing individuals that might just be interested :P

thebman

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The reality is people don't want large reforms though or parties that represent that would appear. That is supply/demand.

The reason I think change would make a difference albeit small changes in policy and the way we do things would be that FG can admit the mistakes of FF and undo some of the mistakes in policy making that FF refuse to admit to.

It isn't major change but it is an improvement. I don't think most people want major change in Irish politics, people are happy enough with the current system, just not with current events and current decision making.

jmayo

ronaneire wrote: »

What about their advisors?? Their pen pushers? All civil servants!! Do you think the FG/Labour would do a better job running the Country? Hardly....

FF straw excuse no 1 come election.
They would be as bad as us and don't dare chance it.

ronaneire wrote: »

My attitude? You just had to listen to FG going on about how they were going to create 100,000 new jobs. Where, how and when? Where would they get the money to start... You can't just pull rabbits out of hats.
So lets wait al least another 9 years before we have things going in the right direction...
Also it is just not an Irish thing, it is worldwide. A lot of people seem to forget this, what when this Country was at the height of the Celtic Tiger, did people feel the same way?

FF straw no 2.
Sure why haven't the opposition got all the facts and figures to back up their ideas and why haven't they better ideas ?
That would be totally unlike FF who haven't a notion and have all these civil servants, economists, statisticans etc :rolleyes:

ronaneire wrote: »

And for the worlds economy who would you like to blame? :eek:

Ah yes FF straw no. 3.
Sure it's a global economy and we are only getting the affects of tigher more credit control and low consumer spending.
Don't mention the big elephant in the corner where the country only really created retail, construction related and public sector jobs over the last 8 years, lost manufacturing and based our hugely increased public sector budget on transaction taxes form construction.
How come we created more public sector jobs over last few years than IDA FDI coming into the country ?
How come we ended up with huge percentage of men working in construction ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

FF have not had an overall majority at all in the last decade so it is wrong to hold them 100% to blame. Much of the economic policy during this time was driven by the PD's so Harney, McDowell and Co. need to take some responsibility . .

Right now, the Greens need to take responsibility for allowing this nonsense to continue. While FF can argue that they are doing everything they can to address the situation, the Greens role in government is to keep them honest . . They are the ones who can trigger a general election and right now they are letting the country down. .

... I would favour a National government . . lets get away from party politics for a while and put the right people in place to make the right decisions !

Stop making excuses for them and trying to shift blame.
Boll**** they had overall majority for all intense and purposes. Remember PDs wouldn't pull the plug when everyone with half a brain knew bertie was playing silly buggers.
Pds were indistinguishable from ff at the end.

Ah yes a national governmnet so they can then stick it to the others.

Mr.Micro

66 TDs to keep 6400 long service bonuses
Income levy hikes 'to be backdated to start of year'

Most every politician loves money, the power is the icing. Lenihan and his team did not even think this retrospective long service bonus thing through ( as usual ) but did it not sound great in his speech last week and it all BS.

Seth Brundle

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Right now, the Greens need to take responsibility for allowing this nonsense to continue. While FF can argue that they are doing everything they can to address the situation, the Greens role in government is to keep them honest . . They are the ones who can trigger a general election and right now they are letting the country down. .

Really? When are the greens going to start keeping FF honest as I have seen absolutely no evidence of it to date!

old boy

yeah dream on folks

Liam Byrne

ronaneire wrote: »

What about their advisors?? Their pen pushers? All civil servants!!

Who hired the advisors ? Who didn't fire them when they were crap ? And who gave them MASSIVE severence pay and pensions with OUR money when it was finally found out that some of them weren't doing their jobs ?
:mad:

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

Stop making excuses for them and trying to shift blame.
Boll**** they had overall majority for all intense and purposes. Remember PDs wouldn't pull the plug when everyone with half a brain knew bertie was playing silly buggers.
Pds were indistinguishable from ff at the end.

Ah yes a national governmnet so they can then stick it to the others.

I'm not making excuses for them and I am not trying to shift blame. . I hold FF responsible for the mess that we are in, primarily for allowing the building industry to dominate our economy for the last 10 years. . However, the reality is that they were in coalition government for this entire time. During the days when the PD's were at their strongest they drove much of government policy (in fact, for a long period in the early days of the Celtic tiger the government was being run by Ahern, McCreevy and Harney). . Lower income taxes were one of the fundamental policies of the PD and its important that responsibility is attributed appropriately . . Right now, we have Harney running our health service into the ground with no mandate other than a few thousand voters in Dublin West. .

Right now, we also have the Green party propping up a government that appears to be without direction and doing nothing about it. . . !

I favour a national government because 1) we can get away from party politics and power struggles for a while and 2) we can get the best people in the right position in government (e.g. would love to see Bruton as Minister for Finance but not in a FG/Lab coalition government)