Proof (if need be) that Cliff Burton was a legend

120_Minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7w895NCsU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwHYPmjTBb0

metzengerstein

dont mean to be disrespectfull to the dead ,but he only became a legend after he passed on,his bass lines are nothing special really.

seachto7

metzengerstein: That's like something a shredder guitarist would say.....:rolleyes:

metzengerstein

nope im a bass player true and true,

and bass legends are people like larry graham,les claypool,bootsy collins and there are so many more who would come in as legends way before burton,

anasthesia maybe i spelled it wrong sorry,allthough it might sound good its really nothing special and if he hadnt passed away and been in metallica he wouldnt be as well recognised id say,

its like kurt cobain nirvana had some ok songs ,he wanst a great gutarist ,but cos he s passed on he is now considered a legend ,why??????

metzengerstein

even listning to those vids songs you have up there ,theyre prety much just average basslines nothing special at all and i dont see the hype bout him.and as for metalica well thats another story

120_Minutes

before i post a rebuttal, i'd like for you to explain, in your opinion, what parts of the basslines posted are average. in the context of the song of course.

My argument is in the context of thrash metal, burton was anything but average.

Mr. CooL ICE

120_Minutes wrote: »

before i post a rebuttal, i'd like for you to explain, in your opinion, what parts of the basslines posted are average. in the context of the song of course.

My argument is in the context of thrash metal, burton was anything but average.

The basslines are quite good, but nothing to render him a legend.

Take the 'big 4' of thrash metal. Both David Ellefson of Megadeth and FranK Bello of Anthrax are superior bassists, and they're not called legends. Why? Because they're both still alive and in slightly smaller bands

metzengerstein

LordChessington wrote: »

The basslines are quite good, but nothing to render him a legend.

Take the 'big 4' of thrash metal. Both David Ellefson of Megadeth and FranK Bello of Anthrax are superior bassists, and they're not called legends. Why? Because they're both still alive and in slightly smaller bands

your a legend lord chessington well said,

whom the bell tolls where are the basslines that are not average one of them is just one or two notes for a few mins and then the do do do do ,do do do do do,hardly genius,and the other is prety much the same,some thrash bassists are awesome,metalica stopped being thrash and lost their own sound when they got to that black album ,i never classed em as being good thrash either they where never fast enough or good enough,slayer wiped them out when they hit that scene ,and im not argueing its my opinion ,and im not a fan nor will i be convinced

by the hammer of thor i will not ,he he

120_Minutes

technically superior? yes, perhaps junior and bello are. but to claim burton is average would mean that his playing was typical of the genre, and if that is the case i'd like more examples, in the thrash metal context, of bassists who did the following:

played "lead" bass

solos that fit the context of the song

were interesting in their choice of harmony and melody

writing or co-writing credits.


i'm not claiming that cliff was the best in the world. but to say he was average is just plain wrong. he was innovative, and you dont have to be the best technically to do that. he was revered just as much before his death, so that argument goes out the window.

despite what many think, he had a part in shaping what metallica is now. before he joined (using kill em all as an example) metallica were a pioneering thrash metal band. most of KEA and RTL was written before he joined, so he had little input. but in parts of RTL and MOP you can hear his influence. had he lived metallica would be different today, but would be just as melodic. he was maturing quicker than the rest of the band and open to other kinds of music.

basically, what i'm saying is: try to find another bassist who played, wrote and sounded like cliff from that era, in that genre. i'm sure it'll be a short list.

by its very definition someone who is unique cannot be "average"

120_Minutes

metzengerstein wrote: »

your a legend lord chessington well said,

whom the bell tolls where are the basslines that are not average one of them is just one or two notes for a few mins and then the do do do do ,do do do do do,hardly genius,and the other is prety much the same,some thrash bassists are awesome,metalica stopped being thrash and lost their own sound when they got to that black album ,i never classed em as being good thrash either they where never fast enough or good enough,slayer wiped them out when they hit that scene ,and im not argueing its my opinion ,and im not a fan nor will i be convinced

by the hammer of thor i will not ,he he

so your argument is that you dont like then as they werent fast enough? where is it written that you're only good if you're fast?

sorry, that argument holds no water. speed does not equal good.

metzengerstein

no my opinion,not arguement is that he was an average bassist,and by hearing his stuff he is average to my ear,nothing special in his playing ,and i dont think he would be as well popular if he was in any other band and was still alive

dasdog

120_Minutes wrote: »

technically superior? yes, perhaps junior and bello are. but to claim burton is average would mean that his playing was typical of the genre, and if that is the case i'd like more examples, in the thrash metal context, of bassists who did the following:

played "lead" bass

solos that fit the context of the song

were interesting in their choice of harmony and melody

writing or co-writing credits.


i'm not claiming that cliff was the best in the world. but to say he was average is just plain wrong. he was innovative, and you dont have to be the best technically to do that. he was revered just as much before his death, so that argument goes out the window.

despite what many think, he had a part in shaping what metallica is now. before he joined (using kill em all as an example) metallica were a pioneering thrash metal band. most of KEA and RTL was written before he joined, so he had little input. but in parts of RTL and MOP you can hear his influence. had he lived metallica would be different today, but would be just as melodic. he was maturing quicker than the rest of the band and open to other kinds of music.

basically, what i'm saying is: try to find another bassist who played, wrote and sounded like cliff from that era, in that genre. i'm sure it'll be a short list.

by its very definition someone who is unique cannot be "average"

Pretty much what I was going to say. Some great players mentioned here though I'll admit I had to look up who Larry Graham was.

Not many bands did bass solo's as Cliff Burton did and it was a snooze fest when his replacement tried it. Burton was a song writer too and the band he was in (IMO) went to sh1t pretty quickly after his demise so maybe he was not technically the greatest but he contributed on another level. Still he was signed on the spot after the band first saw him and Dave Mustaine supposedly said at the time they had found the new Steve Harris. And if you've ever heard the pre-Burton Metallica stuff the bass playing is just plodding along anonymously. Jaco Pastorius anyone?

metzengerstein

yea jaco is another great

120_Minutes

metzengerstein wrote: »

yea jaco is another great

great yes, but only legendary in muso circles. frankly i find jaco outside of a band context a bit boring. his best work was with joni mitchell imo.

on the other hand, i'm sure there are many who've never touched an instrument who can tell you who cliff burton is and how good he was.

seachto7

Rob Trujillio, ironically is a decent bass player, especially with Suicidal Tendencies.

metzengerstein, while Burtons bass parts may not be fast enough for you, in the context of his song writing and arrangements, he was pretty great, for "just a bass player", imo.
Plus, what other band from the 80s or now has a tune like Anasthesia?

didnt mean to have that all in bold either???...

seachto7

you could argue that Buton wrote catchier hooks/songs.

There are lots of great guitarists out there far better than cobain (steve vai et al), but Cobain wrote the catchier songs....(to some)

KevLeppard

LordChessington wrote: »

The basslines are quite good, but nothing to render him a legend.

Take the 'big 4' of thrash metal. Both David Ellefson of Megadeth and FranK Bello of Anthrax are superior bassists, and they're not called legends. Why? Because they're both still alive and in slightly smaller bands

Yeah, +1 on that.

He was a typical bass player for that kind of music, nothing to get overly excited about.

Mr. CooL ICE

120_Minutes wrote:

technically superior? yes, perhaps junior and bello are. but to claim burton is average would mean that his playing was typical of the genre, and if that is the case i'd like more examples, in the thrash metal context, of bassists who did the following:

played "lead" bass

solos that fit the context of the song

were interesting in their choice of harmony and melody

writing or co-writing credits

I would never describe Burton as 'average', but legend when compared to his peers? No.

First of all, bass solos are boring, and I am a bassist. I haven't often come across a bass solo that doesn't make me yawn or even comes across as being a decent tune, and Anaesthesia is no exception. It's little more than a bunch of scales and arpeggiated patterns thrown together with no proper tune to it. And I rarely listen to Kill Em All without skipping over it.

Dave Ellefson is not just a technically superior bassist...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KDO_yCYcuU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wtdutc5pU8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcUx7WftPUc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHjWJJrwqNc

And theres more. Besides, putting up with Mustaine's crap for over 19 years is enough to make him a legend

Bello ain't so bad himself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_yKpBPHJug

120_Minutes wrote:

basically, what i'm saying is: try to find another bassist who played, wrote and sounded like cliff from that era, in that genre

Can't say I know anyone who played, wrote and sounded exactly like Burton, but I could say the same for Ellefson. Then again, I'm not saying that had Burton not joined Metallica that RTL and MOP would have turned out the exact same

dasdog wrote:

Not many bands did bass solo's as Cliff Burton did and it was a snooze fest when his replacement tried it.

Was it a snooze fest when he did it? IMO, yes.

seachto7 wrote:

Plus, what other band from the 80s or now has a tune like Anasthesia?

Not many, thankfully


BTW, I'm not trying to get at anybody here. But if you think Burton is a legend and the be-all and end-all of bass playing from that era, then you really need to get out and listen to more music. And stop watching Cliff Em All!

seachto7

to me, bello and ellefson are savage players but no better or worse than burton. What did Ellefson ever do that was far superior to Burton? At least Bello and Burton played with their fingers instead of a pic

Bello I'd rate higher out of the three. He's savage.

Burton, maybe not a legend, but you can't fault his input to Metallica...

However, Dean De Leo (or is it the other fella!) in Stone Temple Pilots. THERE's a class bass player..

120_Minutes

seachto7 wrote: »

However, Dean De Leo (or is it the other fella!) in Stone Temple Pilots. THERE's a class bass player..

it is the other fella, robert, and no argument from me....have a couple of his bass tracks i'll post in the coming days, but i digress....


i suppose theres no convincing some that burton was the top of his genre at the time, oh well, your loss. but the last solo of orion? the intro to damage inc? snooze fests? puh-leeze....

iseethelight

To post a thread proclaiming anyone as a legend has to contain more than a couple of stuio tracks. Give me something else. Some improvised studio/bootleg recordings. Some new unheard material. Yes he was great but on this basis no more a legend than he already was

metzengerstein

seachto7 wrote: »

Rob Trujillio, ironically is a decent bass player, especially with Suicidal Tendencies.

metzengerstein, while Burtons bass parts may not be fast enough for you, in the context of his song writing and arrangements, he was pretty great, for "just a bass player", imo.
Plus, what other band from the 80s or now has a tune like Anasthesia?

didnt mean to have that all in bold either???...

Trujillio is a far better player also ,his work in infectious grooves is awesome ,and dont think he is playing to his full abillity with metalica ,no wonder he left.and not that burton wasnt fast enough hes just not as good as people make out and certainly not at legend status

metzengerstein

how do ya get vids up on here ,ill post some solos

metzengerstein

victor wooten is an example of a legend bass player ,that guy can play any style perfect and amazingly inventive,while some of it may be boring it still is amazing

metzengerstein

ive just watched cliff em all solos just to refresh my memory .he may aswell have been a guitarist,they all sound the same and certainly not legend status

120_Minutes

metzengerstein wrote: »

ive just watched cliff em all solos just to refresh my memory .he may aswell have been a guitarist,they all sound the same and certainly not legend status

fair point, but look at it from the 80's point of view. no one was doing that then. he was innovative. a bassist making his bass sound like a guitar is common place now.


has wooten got one piece of music that he would be remembered for in 30 years time? admittedly jaco has a couple, be he was also innovative. how many times have you heard "wooten, he's the guy that did....."


oh and to embed videos, use the youtube tags when you're posting and put the youtube url after the = in it.

eddie.fandango

Cliff wasn't a legend just because of his bass playing guys, it was so much more than that. His look, the way he played his bass, his attitude, the way he owned the stage. I hate to use the idiom, but he really had the "X-factor", the stuff of legends.

seachto7

120_Minutes wrote: »

fair point, but look at it from the 80's point of view. no one was doing that then.

I think you hit the nail there, it's the fact that nobody else (that I can think of) was doing it at the time, maybe now it seems tame, but back then, I'm sure it was great....

Catari Jaguar

Yes, Cliff Burton is good and entertaining, but not spectacular. I think a lot of Metallica fans are blinkered. There are so many amazing bass players out there, especially when combined with a good drummer.

Here are some influential (legendary ) bass players - all have different styles. Some of these are amazing at solos/ free style/ riffs.

Geddy Lee - Rush
Flea - RHCP
John Entwhistle - The Who
Rex Brown - Pantera/ Down
Ed Gagliardi - Foreigner
Paul John Jones - Led Zeppelin
David Ellefson - Megadeth
Geezer Butler - Black Sabbath
Dennis Dunaway - Alice Cooper

120_Minutes

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Yes, Cliff Burton is good and entertaining, but not spectacular. I think a lot of Metallica fans are blinkered. There are so many amazing bass players out there, especially when combined with a good drummer.

Here are some influential (legendary ) bass players - all have different styles. Some of these are amazing at solos/ free style.

Geddy Lee - Rush
Flea - RHCP
John Entwhistle - The Who
Ed Gagliardi - Foreigner
Paul John Jones - Led Zeppelin
David Ellefson - Megadeth
Geezer Butler - Black Sabbath
Dennis Dunaway - Alice Cooper

fair point, but it actually serves to prove how good burton was as he had to play with ulrich, the drum only tracks for the songs are cringworthy. the man lacked groove, proving it was hetfield and burton holding it together! i suppose you could say the bass only tracks sound a bit iffy as he had to play to an iffy drum track....imagine burton with a decent drummer.

Catari Jaguar

120_Minutes wrote: »

fair point, but it actually serves to prove how good burton was as he had to play with ulrich, the drum only tracks for the songs are cringworthy. the man lacked groove, proving it was hetfield and burton holding it together! i suppose you could say the bass only tracks sound a bit iffy as he had to play to an iffy drum track....imagine burton with a decent drummer.

Yea, when we went to see Slipknot a few years ago the acoustics were awful and the bass was off and that was putting Joey off (or vice versa) and it didn't mesh at all.

Mr. CooL ICE

Take Geddy lee as an example of a bassist that was around before Burton... Geddy Lee is, IMO, the perfect bass player. I urge anyone here to find a Rush bassline that can be improved upon. He was able to improvise over the guitar and drums to create a rich musical texture and when the situation demanded it, he knew when to sit back and play a simple rhythm. Did he create 4/5 minute-long bass solos? No. Was he capable of it? Absolutely, but I can only assume that Lee being the legend that he is (yes, I used the 'L' word) would fall asleep while playing such a thing and knew that anything that wanky would ruin a perfectly good song/album. Oh, and he played keyboards at the same time too...

Even taking his bass playing on a song-by-song basis... Although the power trio factor may influence this, Lee's basslines had a much larger impact on Rush's sound than Burton could ever wish for with Metallica. Now back (or forward) to the 80s thrash scene... On a song-by-song basis, I would also say that Dave Ellefson had a much bigger impact on Megadeth's sound than Burton had on Metallica, and same for Frank Bello again.

Doctor J

LordChessington wrote: »

Take the 'big 4' of thrash metal. Both David Ellefson of Megadeth and FranK Bello of Anthrax are superior bassists, and they're not called legends.

Because they're not superior bassists.

What needs to be remembered is that Cliff's career lasted all of three and a half years. He's a world reknowned bassist in one of the most rigid musical forms where, in all honesty, bass is almost an afterthought. Yet he managed to display so much of his talent and had a growing influence when his peers were not even in the same dimension. What had Frank Bello done by State Of Euphoria or Ellefson done by So Far, So Good... So What? Nothing, that's what. There's a lot more to Metal bass playing than just playing fast. That Metal bass playing has evolved as it has is largely as a result of the advances that Burton made. Ellefson was the guy who inspired me to play bass when I saw them in 88 and he will always have my total respect but he's just not in the same league as Burton. They were always backing players but Cliff was a rhythm player with the ability to lead, which is a phenominal acheivement for a bassist in a thrash band. His compositional and melodic skills really set him apart in a genre where his peers were generally shadowing the guitars. He opened peoples eyes to just what a Metal bassist could do and he was only going to get better, he never even got close to realising his potential.

breadbin

stop fighting over who is a better bassist its subjective is it not? don't know anything about playing bass myself so i can't comment anymore. i just like the way he plays on that video headbanging, hitting the guitar and what not, just the energy;)

120_Minutes

jesus, doc, i had to wait three pages for you to back me up, but i knew you wouldnt let me down!

I wont deny chess his geddy post, and i'm not even a rush fan, but he is a legend. (and i love his sig jazz)

Doctor J

Heh heh heh, it's only page two on my one. There have been some great bassists mentioned in this thread, all with different styles, different sounds, some with more technical strength than others, some with better melodic sense. The great players combine technical abilty with great musicality and, undeniably, Cliff possessed both of these traits, as do the other greats mentioned. The important bit is that we have these great players to draw inspiration from, they kicked down a lot of doors, showed the rest of us just what's possible with the instrument. I'd love to have seen what Cliff could have progressed on to but it wasn't to be, sadly.

seachto7

Ellefson, I find, tends to follow the guitar riffs, very tightly, yes, but I would expect a good bass player to go against the guitar riffs...

nyarlothothep

Cliff could easily have been the best songwriter in the band. He certainly demonstrated a lot of imagination beyond the chug chug chug of thrash metal. As a musician I think he's a legend, he was technically good, not the best, but pretty damn good and was inventive which is what really counts.

metzengerstein

120_Minutes wrote: »

fair point, but look at it from the 80's point of view. no one was doing that then. he was innovative. a bassist making his bass sound like a guitar is common place now.


has wooten got one piece of music that he would be remembered for in 30 years time? admittedly jaco has a couple, be he was also innovative. how many times have you heard "wooten, he's the guy that did....."


oh and to embed videos, use the youtube tags when you're posting and put the youtube url after the = in it.

yes he will be remembered for amazing grace,,and also there were bass players playing at a higher level than burton in the 70,s era who continued on through burtons time geezer is a good example and the distortion on the bass was already done as was a similar style to him ,try some jethro tull and there are some others

Doctor J

Nobody is saying Burton is the best bass player in the history of the world ever ever ever, just that, within the sometimes restrictive world of Metal of his day, he shone as someone with a unique way of doing the Metal thang. His compositional skills also set him apart, there was alot more to him than just banging out notes. Wooten is a fine player, but I'd like to see if he had the endurance to hammer out Disposable Heroes with the requisite aggression

Creeping-Death

seachto7 wrote: »

Ellefson, I find, tends to follow the guitar riffs, very tightly, yes, but I would expect a good bass player to go against the guitar riffs...

As did Geezer Butler, as do a lot of bass guitarists but theres a difference between following the guitar and blending in completely with it. Jason Newsted was forever riding on Hammet and Hetfield's jetstream, primarily because in my opinion he is just not a good enough musician to excel in his own right.
For me, Cliff Burton was and still is an excellent heavy metal bass playing, might not have been the most mercuriallt talented technically or otherwise, but he brought something different to the party. While i do agree that his death at a very young age has somewhat biased a lot of people in his favour, he was still bloody good at what he did.

Though for me, numero uno will always be Steve Harris.. His style, energy, writing ability but most of all the unique clattering sound of his.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1NS11FBeg

A great example the whole song, but especially after about 2:55 where it starts to speed up..

metzengerstein

120_Minutes wrote: »

fair point, but look at it from the 80's point of view. no one was doing that then. he was innovative. a bassist making his bass sound like a guitar is common place now.


has wooten got one piece of music that he would be remembered for in 30 years time? admittedly jaco has a couple, be he was also innovative. how many times have you heard "wooten, he's the guy that did....."


oh and to embed videos, use the youtube tags when you're posting and put the youtube url after the = in it.

ahhh been away for awhile ,am back and a good listin too some stuff over the last while ,as for the playing the bass like a guitar it was done well before burton the likes of larry graham and bootsy had already done it and used the wah wah so it wasnt anything new,and yes they where stuill doing it when he was around,just that those type bass players maybe where not known to metal heads back then

metzengerstein

Creeping-Death wrote: »

As did Geezer Butler, as do a lot of bass guitarists but theres a difference between following the guitar and blending in completely with it. Jason Newsted was forever riding on Hammet and Hetfield's jetstream, primarily because in my opinion he is just not a good enough musician to excel in his own right.
For me, Cliff Burton was and still is an excellent heavy metal bass playing, might not have been the most mercuriallt talented technically or otherwise, but he brought something different to the party. While i do agree that his death at a very young age has somewhat biased a lot of people in his favour, he was still bloody good at what he did.

Though for me, numero uno will always be Steve Harris.. His style, energy, writing ability but most of all the unique clattering sound of his.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1NS11FBeg

A great example the whole song, but especially after about 2:55 where it starts to speed up..[/QUO

harris is just amazing love playing along to his stuff,

Cathy666

Fixed that list for you there

.....

Steve Harris - Iron Maiden
Joey DeMaio - Manowar
Paul John Jones - Led Zeppelin
David Ellefson - Megadeth
Geezer Butler - Black Sabbath
John Entwhistle - The Who
Rex Brown - Pantera/ Down
Ed Gagliardi - Foreigner
Dennis Dunaway - Alice Cooper

metzengerstein

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Yes, Cliff Burton is good and entertaining, but not spectacular. I think a lot of Metallica fans are blinkered. There are so many amazing bass players out there, especially when combined with a good drummer.

Here are some influential (legendary ) bass players - all have different styles. Some of these are amazing at solos/ free style/ riffs.

Geddy Lee - Rush
Flea - RHCP
John Entwhistle - The Who
Rex Brown - Pantera/ Down
Ed Gagliardi - Foreigner
Paul John Jones - Led Zeppelin
David Ellefson - Megadeth
Geezer Butler - Black Sabbath
Dennis Dunaway - Alice Cooper

i like it,good list have you youtubed john entwhistles ox solo tis cool he has a cam on the head of the bass which looks mad,

carchaeologist

metzengerstein wrote: »

i like it,good list have you youtubed john entwhistles ox solo tis cool he has a cam on the head of the bass which looks mad,

This one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl39LBZGMw

metzengerstein

thats the one

Mike Litoris

As a musician and a writer he stood out in that genre but for me he wasn't a legend. Then I again I think Steve Harris is a legend so....

In that genre I'd class Roger Patterson of Atheist as a legend. His playing on the Piece of Time album is amazing and totally fits the music unlike some virtuosos. Sadly he died before the started recording the second album.

Mental Mickey

Mike Litoris wrote: »

As a musician and a writer he stood out in that genre but for me he wasn't a legend. Then I again I think Steve Harris is a legend so....

In that genre I'd class Roger Patterson of Atheist as a legend. His playing on the Piece of Time album is amazing and totally fits the music unlike some virtuosos. Sadly he died before the started recording the second album.

LMAO @ your username.