O' Leary for the Lions.

thomond2006

Is O' Leary good enough to be a test starter for the Lions?

PP are offering massive odds imo of 10-1 for TOL to start at 9 in the 1st test against SA. Must be worth a punt.

Nukem

No way.

Reckon he is good enough for the bench but Philips is a smashing player and ahead at the moment. A lot can change in the warn up games though and decent performances in a Lions shirt may have him starting (we'll wait and see if he makes the panel first)

Chucky the tree

I wouldnt even have him on the plane.

Amazotheamazing

6 months ago I thought he was one of the worst scrumhalves in the ML, the improvement in his game is a testament to his hard work and the hard work of his coaches. He could make it, though I'd still rather someone like Peel or Blair (if either were on form) to play.

LeeroyJones

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

He has one thing going for him, and that is i reckon they are going to go for a proven half-back partnership , hence ruling out Blair, so it's either Philips and Jones or TOL and ROG. Therefore its whether or not they go for ROG or Jones-which is a tough call but Phillips v TOL is an easier decision in my opinion. With McGeechan in charge there's even the chance of Reddan-Cipriani... really hope he doesn't go for it though.

As far as scrum halves go on individual performances i reckon O'Leary is a bit down the pecking order and would be lucky to get to South Africa.

handsomecake

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

journey man. cannot believe this thread even exists. people seem to confuse endeavour with talent.he is bereft of both

Gelio

No way.

Good enough? Oh yes the physical SA would suit him well.
Will he? No probably not, he should be happy with bench

conf101

I really like him as a player and I think he gets a lot of undeserved criticism but unfortunately I don't think he'll make it, reckon Philips and Blair are ahead of him in the pecking order!

Podge_irl

I don't think he is as good as some of the other options, but he is playing better then some of them at the moment. Its not an area of strength so he has a chance of making the plane. After that, who knows

Otacon

No way.

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think he is as good as some of the other options, but he is playing better then some of them at the moment. Its not an area of strength so he has a chance of making the plane. After that, who knows

+1

While, on paper, there are better options for a plane seat, such as Blair, his form may lead to him getting the nod. Personally, I would love to see him go. The more Irish the better.

anonymous_joe

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

O'Leary's good, but I think guys like Blair and Philips are better. Also there are a lot of guys who are as good as O'Leary, such as Cooper, Peel, Cusiter, Care (whose fantastic) , Ellis, even Reddan. In fact, I'd have thought Reddan might be the Irish scrum-half more likely to go, because unlike Kidney, the Wasps coaches don't actively dislike him.

Amabokke

Hell no, way too slow in getting to breakdown and passing the ball. Remember game against France? Anyways, other scrumhalfs far ahead of him, Phillips, Blair, Pweel, Ellis.

murphym7

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

I think he has improved a lot this year but there are several better. I think it would be a terrible decision. Probably would do nothing for his confidence. I would prefer to see other Irish players on the plane in other positions, Wally for example.

Stealdo

I would say he's 7th choice behind 2 scrum halves from each of the other 3 countries. Peel, Philips, Blair, Cussiter, Care and Ellis all ahead of him and possibly another English SH or two. Actually I'd say Stringer is ahead of him too.

By the way - considering this and the equally out there Alan Quinlan thread, can we look forward to Hayes, Horan, Buckley, Fogarty, O'Driscoll, Leamy, Murphy etc etc polls? Sure they're all used to wearing red that has to count for something.

Amazotheamazing

Stealdo wrote: »

I would say he's 7th choice behind 2 scrum halves from each of the other 3 countries. Peel, Philips, Blair, Cussiter, Care and Ellis all ahead of him and possibly another English SH or two. Actually I'd say Stringer is ahead of him too.

By the way - considering this and the equally out there Alan Quinlan thread, can we look forward to Hayes, Horan, Buckley, Fogarty, O'Driscoll, Leamy, Murphy etc etc polls? Sure they're all used to wearing red that has to count for something.

Leamy? International quality at 6 and 8, if he stays fit he'll be on the call-up list, a la Jones and Easterby last time out.

RichTea

I think its too soon for Tomás. Definitely a very talented and quality scrum half but should he be on a Lions tour so soon after winning his first test start?

I wouldn't have considered him for a spot until I read this and thought about it. He's good enough for a spot but he won't be on the tour.

Stealdo

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Leamy? International quality at 6 and 8, if he stays fit he'll be on the call-up list, a la Jones and Easterby last time out.

Ah he will yep. Just listing Munster players I don't think will make the plane as part of the original 35/6. Hayes and Horan would both also be outside shots for injury call ups during the tour.

thehighground

One thing O'Leary has going for him, and that is his pace.

Watch this against Ospreys (Phillips -& Kearney both missed similar tackles in the last week or so).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM5c77ENMzw&feature=related

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VUgWHDSjYI&feature=related

or scoring this try

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Qbugec83k

dan719

No way.

Stealdo wrote: »

By the way - considering this and the equally out there Alan Quinlan thread, can we look forward to Hayes, Horan, Buckley, Fogarty, O'Driscoll, Leamy, Murphy etc etc polls? Sure they're all used to wearing red that has to count for something.

Well they are at least all used to winning, which is more than can be said for some of the so called certs. And Hayes will tour. And it's not beyond the realm of possibility that O'Leary will too.

sslazio11

thehighground wrote: »

One thing O'Leary has going for him, and that is his pace.

Watch this against Ospreys (Phillips -& Kearney both missed similar tackles in the last week or so).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM5c77ENMzw&feature=related

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VUgWHDSjYI&feature=related

or scoring this try

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Qbugec83k

The two tackles are the perfect example of why he might be chosen.

His passing is the weakest part of his game, no doubt, and that's probably why he won't be chosen, unfortunately, it's too big a drawback for a Lions tour.

stephen_n

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

sslazio11 wrote: »

The two tackles are the perfect example of why he might be chosen.

His passing is the weakest part of his game, no doubt, and that's probably why he won't be chosen, unfortunately, it's too big a drawback for a Lions tour.

He's a scrumhalf it's a drawback for any team that doesn't play kicking rugby.

I would be very surprised if he makes it on the plane let alone the test squad, Blair may be lacking form at the moment but has experience which would stand to him on the tour and Peel and Ellis are both better scrum halves than him. Phillips is the first choice IMO even though he didn't have a great 6N

thehighground

stephen_n wrote: »

He's a scrumhalf it's a drawback for any team that doesn't play kicking rugby.

I would be very surprised if he makes it on the plane let alone the test squad, Blair may be lacking form at the moment but has experience which would stand to him on the tour and Peel and Ellis are both better scrum halves than him. Phillips is the first choice IMO even though he didn't have a great 6N

And was totally outplayed by O'Leary in their last three encounters.:rolleyes: If Mike Phillips is selected, its for his size & physicality against the Boks, not for his pass. O'Leary is smaller but he is just as physical (with a lot better pace).

I think O'Leary will be on the plane myself, but probably not as a test starter. One thing the Irish lads have going for them, and that is their fitness levels (according to Mick McGurn) are way better than anyone elses which will come in very handy on the high veldt.

stephen_n

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

thehighground wrote: »

And was totally outplayed by O'Leary in their last three encounters.:rolleyes: If Mike Phillips is selected, its for his size & physicality against the Boks, not for his pass. O'Leary is smaller but he is just as physical (with a lot better pace).

I think O'Leary will be on the plane myself, but probably not as a test starter. One thing the Irish lads have going for them, and that is their fitness levels (according to Mick McGurn) are way better than anyone elses which will come in very handy on the high veldt.

Hard to rate that really as on all three occasions TOL was playing behind a dominant pack, Phillips gets in and gets the ball away quicker and given the nature of the boks you would think Phillips, Ellis, and TOL would be the most physical of the SH's but I don't see him bringing three players who all offer the same that's why I think Blair or Peel would get the nod ahead of TOL with Ellis as the third!

Anyway we'll find out soon enough

EdgarAllenPoo

I'd say he'd be a good pick against a guy like Ruan Pienaar. He doesn't have the size of a guy like Mike Phillips but I'd say he can handle himself.

redmca

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

I am in the "No Way" category.
His qualities are not those primarily of a SH. Yes he is strong, a good defender and fast ........ at running that is, but not at passing. Fast passing is probably the number 1 requirement in the position.
His box kicking esp in the French game was truly appalling. Like many have said, the other 3 countries each have 2 candidates most of whom I would rate as better purely in the SH role.
Still, I would be delighted to be proven wrong as his commitment is typically Munster (i.e total) and he seems to have been learned this from his time as Stringer's understudy.

Stev_o

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

By form it would be looking something like Ellis/Peel and Care/TOL. I think at the moment Ellis should start with Peel on the bench possibly, think Ellis is the more street wise of the lot and he is a very good defender aswell.

Amazotheamazing

Stev_o wrote: »

By form it would be looking something like Ellis/Peel and Care/TOL. I think at the moment Ellis should start with Peel on the bench possibly, think Ellis is the more street wise of the lot and he is a very good defender aswell.

Ellis? really? He's nearly as bad a passer as O'Leary, would hate to see him involved.

Stev_o

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ellis? really? He's nearly as bad a passer as O'Leary, would hate to see him involved.

Sadly they all have shocking passes bar Care who would be a outsider to start. Ellis had a very good 6N (the best out of the lot of SH) and would be better then TOL starting at 9.

corny

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

He's a decent player but the coaches are likely to go for Phillips, Blair and an English scrumhalf (Care or Ellis). I'd be astonished if TOL makes it on the plane because failing that line up i'd agree Peel, Cusiter and Stringer, in that order, would be next up.

For what its worth i hope Blair pulls the finger out when he's over there because he'd be a certain starter on top form.

sslazio11

corny wrote: »

He's a decent player but the coaches are likely to go for Phillips, Blair and an English scrumhalf (Care or Ellis). I'd be astonished if TOL makes it on the plane because failing that line up i'd agree Peel, Cusiter and Stringer, in that order, would be next up.

For what its worth i hope Blair pulls the finger out when he's over there because he'd be a certain starter on top form.

I'd say there's a good chance Blair will be giving it everything in SA, hard not to be depressed and lethargic playing for that Scottish team, they were truly woeful in the 6N. If Peel was in top form I'd pick him to start, but that's not the case at the moment, he wasn't 1st choice for Wales or even Sale this year.

Amazotheamazing

Stev_o wrote: »

Sadly they all have shocking passes bar Care who would be a outsider to start. Ellis had a very good 6N (the best out of the lot of SH) and would be better then TOL starting at 9.

No they don't, Peel and Blair have excellent passes.

Ellis was ordinary enough this 6 nations, imo. He's been ordinary ever since he came back from the long term injury.

Stev_o

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No they don't, Peel and Blair have excellent passes.

Ellis was ordinary enough this 6 nations, imo. He's been ordinary ever since he came back from the long term injury.

Why did Peel get dropped from the Wales squad? He developed a awful pass and decided to go ball watching. Blair had a horrible 6N where his passing went to sh1t and don't try to deny it.

Amazotheamazing

Stev_o wrote: »

Why did Peel get dropped from the Wales squad? He developed a awful pass and decided to go ball watching. Blair had a horrible 6N where his passing went to sh1t and don't try to deny it.

Peel was back in the Welsh squad after being dropped for leaving Wales. He got injured just prior to the 6 nations. Blair did have a horrible 6 nations, but as rule, he's still a better passer than a flinger like Ellis.

Stealdo

dan719 wrote: »

Well they are at least all used to winning, which is more than can be said for some of the so called certs. And Hayes will tour. And it's not beyond the realm of possibility that O'Leary will too.

Sure why not send the Irish team so - they're all used to winning, or better yet, the Kilkenny hurlers, they haven't lost for ages.

Hayes hasn't a hope of making the initial panel, he's behind Murray, Vickery and Jones. Possibility if one of those gets injured on tour. But that's way off topic here (I know I started it)

Nothing is beyond the realms of possibility but TOL would have to go from 7th/8th choice to 3rd in a week to get on the plane, and I don't see it. If he does - I'll come back into this thread and say I was wrong - but I'm as certain as you can be - he hasn't a hope.

Chucky the tree

I'd have Mike Ross ahead of Hayes. The last thing you want in SA is a Tight head who ist a great scrummager.

corny

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'd have Mike Ross ahead of Hayes. The last thing you want in SA is a Tight head who ist a great scrummager.

Recipe for disaster alright.

zAbbo

On the plane but behind Phillips etc

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'd have Mike Ross ahead of Hayes. The last thing you want in SA is a Tight head who ist a great scrummager.

There doesn't seem as much emphasis on scrums anymore, and only about 5-10 per game as well.

O'Leary won't make the Lions, out of the 36 seats, I'd say 26 are already in, and the last 10 comes down to the most important part of a Lions tour - Selection & Balance

Geech will be looking at the last spots to get the balance right, and with the scrum halves at his disposal (Stringer, O'Leary, Cusiter, Blair, Ellis, Care, Philips, Cooper and Peel) - there is no point in bringing similar players outside of your 2 main (Philips & Blair). The third (and possibly forth) choices will have to show something a little different to be included - probably Ellis & Peel.

There is a lot of speculation on forums for certain players to make the tour - but picking the best 36 players is as pointless as picking an average but credible club/province player. The final selection might throw up a few surprises but certainly not Tomas O'Leary, or Alan Quinlan.

thomond2006

On the plane but behind Phillips etc

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'd have Mike Ross ahead of Hayes. The last thing you want in SA is a Tight head who ist a great scrummager.

You have got to be taking the p1ss.

anonymous_joe

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

thomond2006 wrote: »

You have got to be taking the p1ss.

Great and all as Hayes is, he's closer to getting his pension than competing with the Boks props. At least their best ones.

Mike Ross is a very good player, I know a lot of Munster fans don't rate him because he was let go (same with Reddan) but I've watched Quins the odd time this season and he's been very good.

And to those who say scrums are rarer, absolutely, but probably even more important. In an average attack, there is a defensive line of between 12 and 13 players, with a full back behind them. In a scrum for obvious reasons that's vastly reduced. So it's hugely important for running your set plays.

Stev_o

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

thomond2006 wrote: »

You have got to be taking the p1ss.

Hayes has been dire in the scrums recently it's well known his time is coming to a end.

thehighground

Stev_o wrote: »

Hayes has been dire in the scrums recently it's well known his time is coming to a end.

He'll be missed big time.

From the Irish Times

My seat in Thomond Park afforded me a bird’s eye view of Keith Earls’ magnificent try but it was the lineout that attracted my attention. Ireland’s victories over Scotland, England and Wales were by one score or less and by nine points over France. These are all very tight margins. Suffice to say that the lineout steals by O’Connell and scores generated by the Irish lineout have contributed most handsomely to those narrow victories.

It may sound obvious but at the heart of these wins can be found the lineout lifter, John Hayes. I think back to Brian O’Driscoll’s fantastic try against the French in Croke Park that resulted from a lineout win by O’Connell being lifted by Hayes.

So back to Thomond Park last weekend and the lineout. I noticed that on several occasions O’Connell started in the traditional slot at four in defence but on occasion Hayes stood behind him. When there, he focused totally on O’Connell. Without any apparent communication they’d switch in an instant with Hayes stepping out of the lineout allowing O’Connell to speedily step back and without any loss of motion Hayes would lift him from the front. It’s a little nerdy but the speed at which O’Connell gets in the air to challenge is extraordinary. I’m convinced he will not accomplish this in South Africa without Hayes. Neither Scotland’s Euan Murray 6ft 1in nor Wales’ Adam Jones’ 6ft are small but at 6ft 4ins John Hayes has both the physique and symbiotic relationship to maximise the lineout performance.

Remember in the last round of the Six Nations the average number of scrums per match was 10 versus 26 lineouts per match. Both are incredible sources of possession but there wasn’t one ball lost against the head at scrum time in the last round. Of the 12 lineouts conceded in the last weekend Ireland contributed one where Wales conceded six. Wales lost the game by two points! Had Hayes not been in the lineout would O’Connell have stolen that ball and would Ireland have subsequently lost out on the great quest for the Grand Slam?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0417/1224244900230.html

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Great and all as Hayes is, he's closer to getting his pension than competing with the Boks props. At least their best ones.

Mike Ross is a very good player, I know a lot of Munster fans don't rate him because he was let go (same with Reddan) but I've watched Quins the odd time this season and he's been very good.

And to those who say scrums are rarer, absolutely, but probably even more important. In an average attack, there is a defensive line of between 12 and 13 players, with a full back behind them. In a scrum for obvious reasons that's vastly reduced. So it's hugely important for running your set plays.

Its not about Munster fans rating him - its fairly obvious Declan Kidney (who would have seen him a lot closer) rated some others as being better.

Edit: How is the 'quins' line out?

anonymous_joe

No, Stringer is a better scrum half.

thehighground wrote: »

Its not about Munster fans rating him - its fairly obvious Declan Kidney (who would have seen him a lot closer) rated some others as being better.

Edit: How is the 'quins' line out?

Aye, Declan Kidney really doesn't like Reddan for one thing.

Quins lineout is a lot worse than Leo Cullen that's for sure.

Stealdo

thehighground wrote: »

He'll be missed big time.

From the Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0417/1224244900230.html

This is a very good point in Hayes' favour in fairness. But I think the margins are too tight in terms of advantage gained/lossed versus the same in the scrum. I think the potential to get pushed around in the scrum is too significant. The Lions will be looking at both backrows as strong attacking platforms with the 5m rule particularly. If they give SA the ability to get a nudge in the scrum on either ball as they like it'll be conceding a very strong attacking platform (assuming Heaslip or Wallace plays 8) and also handing a huge platform to SA on their ball. The gain/loss in the lineout by having a slightly less effective lifter than Hayes is less in my opinion.

I don't know how the communication works, but I would assume at this point that the captain knows he's the captain and might have a final input on tight selection points. If POC is captain maybe there's a case for Hayes being picked but I'd still bet heavily against it.

By the by - Hayes will be massively missed by Irish rugby, no intention to run the man down at all, he's been an absolute collossus, deserves his caps record and in a way it's a shame that he'll probably only have it for a game or two after he retires because BOD is so close.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Aye, Declan Kidney really doesn't like Reddan for one thing.

Reddan has clearly been off form with Wasps. No need to personalise it and turn Reddan into a 'victim' and blame Kidney for it.

Quins lineout is a lot worse than Leo Cullen that's for sure.

Well, hopefully the Leinster LO doesn't disimprove when Ross comes!