What "purpose" does belief offer? (topic moved from dilemma thread)

Dades

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well I'm sure even atheists would agree that if they found out tomorrow that there was a God who created and ordered the universe and has a purpose for it and a purpose for mankind then that would be a good source of ultimate meaning to some people if not others.

On the contrary, I still have no idea what ultimate meaning or purpose does believing in God gives you. I don't understand how having an enigmatic controlling God figure would give me a meaning. Explain to me what meaning or purpose a believer has that a non-believer doesn't.

Soul Winner

Dades wrote: »

On the contrary, I still have no idea what ultimate meaning or purpose does believing in God gives you. I don't understand how having an enigmatic controlling God figure would give me a meaning. Explain to me what meaning or purpose a believer has that a non-believer doesn't.

At the risk of this thread going completely off the rails I have decided not to answer this here, but I will be more than happy to answer it as best I can in new thread should you wish to open one.

Dades

You're right SW - I was derailing that thread.

I have always wondered what the religious based purpose was, and what it had to offer over a "localised" purpose. I wouldn't be so curious if it wasn't such a common contention amongst religious folk that life is meaningless without a god.

All opinions welcome!

neuro-praxis

It's a good question.

It probably requires that we define our understanding of belief, because the default, learned or chosen beliefs that one holds shape one's own view of personal purpose.

If we narrow it to religious belief, or belief in some kind of omnipotent deity, then we need to examine the nature of that belief. The sense of purpose derived from Islam for example would be utterly different from the sense of purpose derived from Christianity, because the nature of the deity is different, thus changing the nature of the relationship or perceived relationship of the person to the deity.

So what then exactly is it we are talking about?

Would you like personal accounts of how religious belief has impacted the personal lives of the believers (testimony)? Or are you looking for a more abstract discussion that examines the measurable social benefits of religious belief? Or are you looking for something else altogether?

And ultimately, won't the discussion simply descend into "But it's all just crap anyway"?

Dades

tbh, I didn't think there was any ambiguity as to what I was asking Soul Winner.

If religion (in this instance, Christianity) offers meaning/purpose to life -what exactly is that purpose/meaning?

bou

For me, as a Buddhist, my belief is that there is direct experience of the way things are that is deeper and more profound than the experience of reality which I currently have. The purpose of that belief is to serve as an impetus to work on applying what I've heard to myself so as to uncover that deeper experience of things. So, I try to practice meditation and let go of rigid concepts of what I am and what my experiences are and bring mindfulness to my activities. I also try to avoid negative actions and adopt positive ones.
Belief is a drive to continue doing what requires some discipline. I won't know if I'm right until I get there. Maybe I should follow a soccer team instead.

gaynorvader

Dades wrote: »

On the contrary, I still have no idea what ultimate meaning or purpose does believing in God gives you. I don't understand how having an enigmatic controlling God figure would give me a meaning. Explain to me what meaning or purpose a believer has that a non-believer doesn't.

IMO, the only meaning/purpose from having belief is comfort. Much like a night-light or a soother when you're small. It's easier to put your faith in an all powerful god figure than to take your chances in a world/universe where literally anything could happen to you at any time. My opinion is probably slightly invalid as I don't have 'faith' in a supreme being. I think I did once, but it fell apart on examination.

Húrin

1. Finding out what God wishes your life to be, because that will give you the happiest life possible.

2. Serving your human survival needs.

Soul Winner

There are certain things that everyone knows for sure and there are things that every doesn't know for sure. The things that I know for a fact are these: I know that I didn't bring myself into being. I know that this universe is beyond my comprehension. I know that I am going to die someday. And I know for a fact that I cannot add a single hour to my life by any power that I possess. Things I do not know. How did this universe came into existence? Is there a God or not? What is life? And what is the point of it all? The meaning that my faith gives me is one that makes sense of the world. Like why I'm here and where I'm going.

There are two ways to view the universe. One in which there is no such thing as God and one where there is a such thing as God.

In a universe in which there is a such thing as God, God being defined as the most powerful being in existence who planned, created and controls the universe. In which nothing happens without His direct involvement including the creation of space, time, matter and energy. The coalescing of galaxies. The formation of stars and solar systems, planetary formation and so on. The creation of life, all living, breathing, animate beings including mankind. To believe in this Being's existence gives me a sense of security, purpose, and meaning in life.

In a universe where there is no such being as God we have a universe that came into being without a plan and without a purpose. In such a universe there are no ultimate purposes for anything. There is no purpose for space, time matter and energy. No purpose for the coalescing of galaxies. No purpose for star formation. No reason for solar system formation and planetary formations. No purpose for development of life and no purpose for the evolution of lifeforms. We find ourselves on such a planet in such a universe if there is no God which to me would mean that my life too is ultimately purposeless and relatively very very short in comparison to the universe. Which begs the question, why is 'purpose' important to some of us lifeforms when there is, nor ever was such a thing?

I don't believe in God because it feels better I believe in God because of a study of the facts of the resurrection of Jesus. If this Jesus who made the claims He made came forth from the tomb as reported then to me that is a good starting point in believing that God exists. I can find no other explanation that makes sense of the facts which you are forced to consider once you study the resurrection other than He did come forth from the grave as reported, an act that wouldn't be such a big deal to such a powerful being as God if He does exist. I've lived a lot of years on this earth and I've yet to hear an argument that totally destroys my faith in the supernatural, so until I hear one then I will continue with my faith as is.

pH

Soul Winner wrote: »

To believe in this Being's existence gives me a sense of security, purpose, and meaning in life.

<snip>

I don't believe in God because it feels better I believe in God because of a study of the facts of the resurrection of Jesus.

You had it the first time.

Soul Winner

pH wrote: »

You had it the first time.

They're two different things, read them again. If I hadn't got faith then I wouldn't have the sense of security, but because I do, based on the study of the resurrection I have got this faith. Make sense now?

Sam Vimes

Soul Winner wrote: »

In a universe where there is no such being as God we have a universe that came into being without a plan and without a purpose. In such a universe there are no ultimate purposes for anything. There is no purpose for space, time matter and energy. No purpose for the coalescing of galaxies. No purpose for star formation. No reason for solar system formation and planetary formations. No purpose for development of life and no purpose for the evolution of lifeforms. We find ourselves on such a planet in such a universe if there is no God which to me would mean that my life too is ultimately purposeless and relatively very very short in comparison to the universe. Which begs the question, why is 'purpose' important to some of us lifeforms when there is, nor ever was such a thing?

The problem there is that you're still asking a question that has no answer. That question is made up by humans. My best attempt at an answer would be:because our egos make us think we have a purpose and we don't like the idea that we don't have one

Soul Winner wrote: »

I don't believe in God because it feels better I believe in God because of a study of the facts of the resurrection of Jesus. If this Jesus who made the claims He made came forth from the tomb as reported then to me that is a good starting point in believing that God exists. I can find no other explanation that makes sense of the facts which you are forced to consider once you study the resurrection other than He did come forth from the grave as reported, an act that wouldn't be such a big deal to such a powerful being as God if He does exist. I've lived a lot of years on this earth and I've yet to hear an argument that totally destroys my faith in the supernatural, so until I hear one then I will continue with my faith as is.

You cannot honestly claim that you objectively looked at the evidence for the resurrection from a scientific and historical perspective and based your faith on that. I think this for several reasons:

1. There have been hundreds and probably thousands of similar and almost identical claims made throughout history. You would first have to disprove all of these and explain away the apparent similarities between your resurrection story and all the others
2. The evidence is far from conclusive. For example we are told that over 500 people witnessed the resurrection but we never hear from these people, we just have a claim that they saw it, the same as any other resurrection myth. There is no hard evidence, just stories written by people who were so dedicated as to be willing to die for their beliefs, or maybe even lie for them
3. Even if people actually saw something, there are a multitude of ways that the crucifixtion and resurrection could have been hoaxed or it could simply have been something they didn't understand, especially in those days when people accepted the supernatural the way we accept gravity and they didn't understand a whole lot about the universe.
4. Even if we are to completely accept that Jesus performed miracles, was crucified, died and was resurrected, he could have been Satan trying to deceive the Jews
5. People have "faith" in Jesus but people don't have faith in, for example, gravity. And that's because we have evidence for gravity. If there was enough evidence to confidently assert that the resurrection did take place the same way we can assert that Henry VIII existed, faith would no longer be required because we would know it happened. It would be in history books rather than religious books and we would learn about it alongside the Roman Empire

So you can keep telling people that you believe because of the evidence but the truth is that you believe because you want to believe and this shakey evidence just strengthens your belief and changes it from blind faith to slightly less blind faith. The evidence is simply not conclusive enough to base an entire belief system on

Dades

Soul Winner, there are two things missing from the your latest post. The actual meaning and the actual purpose I'm trying to find.

Soul Winner wrote: »

There are certain things that everyone knows for sure and there are things that every doesn't know for sure. The things that I know for a fact are these: I know that I didn't bring myself into being. I know that this universe is beyond my comprehension. I know that I am going to die someday. And I know for a fact that I cannot add a single hour to my life by any power that I possess. Things I do not know. How did this universe came into existence? Is there a God or not? What is life? And what is the point of it all?

You and I don't differ up to here.

Soul Winner wrote: »

The meaning that my faith gives me is one that makes sense of the world. Like why I'm here and where I'm going.

How does making sense of something give you meaning? What is the meaning that becomes apparent when sense is made of the universe?

Soul Winner wrote:

There are two ways to view the universe. One in which there is no such thing as God and one where there is a such thing as God.

In a universe in which there is a such thing as God, God being defined as the most powerful being in existence who planned, created and controls the universe. In which nothing happens without His direct involvement including the creation of space, time, matter and energy. The coalescing of galaxies. The formation of stars and solar systems, planetary formation and so on. The creation of life, all living, breathing, animate beings including mankind. To believe in this Being's existence gives me a sense of security, purpose, and meaning in life.

Security I can understand -from death I guess.

But again I'll ask, what is your purpose in a universe created and contolled by a God?

You're going out of your way to tell me what gives you purpose and meaning without actually telling me what they are.

For example, my child gives me a purpose. To provide the best life for her, and maybe make the world a better place for her and her generation. Meaning? I don't believe there is one and it doesn't take away the awesomeness of simply being here at all.

It's that easy.

Soul Winner

Dades wrote: »

Soul Winner, there are two things missing from the your latest post. The actual meaning and the actual purpose I'm trying to find.

How does making sense of something give you meaning? What is the meaning that becomes apparent when sense is made of the universe?

Security I can understand -from death I guess.

But again I'll ask, what is your purpose in a universe created and contolled by a God?

You're going out of your way to tell me what gives you purpose and meaning without actually telling me what they are.

For example, my child gives me a purpose. To provide the best life for her, and maybe make the world a better place for her and her generation. Meaning? I don't believe there is one and it doesn't take away the awesomeness of simply being here at all.

It's that easy.

Oh, OK so. Put yourself into my mind for just a second. You have come to believe in God. You now believe not only that He exists but that He also planned, created and ordered this universe. The unimaginable vastness of its expanse and the intricacies and ballances of nature on earth. That it is His will to give you eternal life after you die with a resurrected body that is both incorruptible and eternal and all you have to do is trust Him daily with your life until death. Now my purpose in life is to attain this glorious state by daily acting in faith and trusting God's promises to me and acting as though they are true down here and as soon as I step on that departing point after death toward glory it will be all good from there. Now this is what I have come to believe in, it might turn out that I am deluded but that is beside the point, the point is that I actually believe it and as such I act accordingly.

If God exists then we were created for 'His' purposes, and to do 'His' will. What God intended man to be as far as the Christian believes is to continually offer ourselves to God in order that we may do His will. We do not know how ultimately that will turn out so it is incumbent upon us to continually act in this way and to trust God that things will work out for our benefit in the long run, even if it doesn't look like that it will in our lives down here. Basically we must be ready and willing to die if necessary hanging onto God's promises that what He says He will bring to pass. This is the walk of faith and it is the only thing that we must bring to the party, God does everything else including making you righteous as He is righteous, leading you in the way that you should go according to His will, and providing for your needs. My purpose is to live this way and not to waver in it, even though I do waver a lot of the time but His grace is sufficient for me and I can always start over with Him when I get off the track.

Does this sort of answer your question?

Dades

Soul Winner wrote: »

Does this sort of answer your question?

Close enough

Soul Winner wrote:

Now my purpose in life is to attain this glorious state by daily acting in faith and trusting God's promises to me and acting as though they are true down here and as soon as I step on that departing point after death toward glory it will be all good from there.

That sounds suspiciously like your purpose in life is to get to heaven! Granted, the idea is to get there by following God's rules and whatnot, which (for the most part) isn't such a bad thing. It still seems a little more God's purpose than yours though...

And it does seem unfair to say of a non-believer who lives a good life and doesn't expect to be carried to heaven on death that their life is purposeless.

Calibos

Basically Soulwiner in your first paragraph you are saying that between the carrot and the stick of belief in heavenly reward or eternal damnation, the carrot is more persuasive for you.

Forgetting all about the 'nastier' moral techings of christian belief, the morals of christianity broadly correlate with rational humanist morals that most of us have (ie the golden rules), so in effect despite my lack of belief I am living a 'Christian' life just like you. Assuming there is nothing to distinguish us other than belief or lack thereof and assuming God doesn't judge us soley on belief or lack thereof, who do you thinks he lets in the door first. The person who led 'the christian life' for the promise of reward or the the person who led 'the christian life' because it was the right thing to do.

Of course you will counter, that this arguement is a non starter because God 'does' judge us on whether we believed or not.

My answer to that and I hope you'll pardon my vulgarity, is, "Well F Him!!" What kind of egotistical deity is he that I don't get this heavenly reward for living the kind of life he wanted me to lead of my own volition without jumping for the carrot or cowering from the stick.....just because I didn't believe in him without evidence. Faith is a virtue...my a$#E (again, pardon the vulgarity)

Tell me this, when do you know your kid has "grown up"?

Answer: When you stop having to bribe him with an ice cream to behave or threaten him to behave. When he starts acting in an adult manner without you having to resort to those, When he starts to act in an adult manner of his own free will because its the right thing to do aren't you filled with pride that he has matured into a fine young man.

You are basically just admiting you have a childlike mentality. What does that make me

But you know what, I don't think you are a child, I don't think you would turn into what most religious people think an atheist acts like, No morals etc, Why?, because the morals that you think you get from God are inherent evolutionary based morals that you'll still have should you ever lose the faith,ie. the same morals you use when you decide which parts of the divinely inspired Bible not to follow because they are immoral.

Hurin, I just had a revelation from the lord that his plan for me is to rid the world of the scourge of homosexuality by any means necessary. Who am I to question or fathom the ways of God, He has a plan and that plan involves me ridding the world of homo's.

So now I understand Gods plan for me.......................I AM NOT HAPPY! and rather than this knowledge allowing me to live the happiest life ever it makes me want to commit suicide before I can carry it out. Its funny ask any sane person to do that and they would react with horror, ask any Psycho to do that and then you might get your 'happiest ever' person to be carrying out Gods plan.

kiffer

Calibos wrote: »

Hurin, I just had a revelation from the lord that his plan for me is to rid the world of the scourge of homosexuality by any means necessary. Who am I to question or fathom the ways of God, He has a plan and that plan involves me ridding the world of homo's.

Pfft... That's not the sort of command that God would give... cause it's not in His nature to order us to kill like that... oh wait, my mistake... in the old testament he does it all over the freaking place(figuratively speaking, exaggerated for dramatic effect) ... well he doesn't do that anymore because his objective morality has changed... somehow.

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

If God exists then we were created for 'His' purposes, and to do 'His' will. What God intended man to be as far as the Christian believes is to continually offer ourselves to God in order that we may do His will.

So basically you're this cute little guy:



And Jessica Simpson is God. I get it.

Húrin

Unsurprisingly, the atheists object to God not because he is non-existent, but because he is a threat to their precious autonomy.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The problem there is that you're still asking a question that has no answer. That question is made up by humans. My best attempt at an answer would be:because our egos make us think we have a purpose and we don't like the idea that we don't have one

You cannot honestly claim that you objectively looked at the evidence for the resurrection from a scientific and historical perspective and based your faith on that.

Why do you smugly believe that you have objective truth, that everyone who doesn't agree with you is dishonest or deluded, and that everyone must think the same way as you?

Dades wrote: »

And it does seem unfair to say of a non-believer who lives a good life and doesn't expect to be carried to heaven on death that their life is purposeless.

It doesn't matter if it's unfair, but I think it is untrue. There is evidence in the Bible of God using unbelievers, like Cyrus, for his purposes.

Calibos wrote: »

But you know what, I don't think you are a child, I don't think you would turn into what most religious people think an atheist acts like, No morals etc, Why?, because the morals that you think you get from God are inherent evolutionary based morals that you'll still have should you ever lose the faith,ie. the same morals you use when you decide which parts of the divinely inspired Bible not to follow because they are immoral.

Hurin, I just had a revelation from the lord that his plan for me is to rid the world of the scourge of homosexuality by any means necessary. Who am I to question or fathom the ways of God, He has a plan and that plan involves me ridding the world of homo's.

The likelihood that our morals are a product of evolution doesn't mean that they didn't come from God, who I consider to be the inventor of the evolutionary process.

I didn't suggest that special revelation was needed to seek one's purpose in life. There is an abundance of divine revelation in the Bible. If you claim to have a special revelation, you ought to have witnesses, or evidence.

Dades

Húrin wrote: »

Unsurprisingly, the atheists object to God not because he is non-existent, but because he is a threat to their precious autonomy.

Eh, no. As far as we're concerned he's non-existent. This thread is only concerned with finding out what purpose believers think they get from their God.

Húrin wrote: »

It doesn't matter if it's unfair, but I think it is untrue. There is evidence in the Bible of God using unbelievers, like Cyrus, for his purposes.

Again - technically that would be God's purpose, not ours or yours.

robindch

Húrin wrote: »

the atheists object to God not because he is non-existent, but because he is a threat to their precious autonomy.

As Dades says -- not at all. We don't believe that your deity exists coz we believe that the stories in the bible are clearly invented.

I wouldn't disbelieve your deity's existence because of some loss of autonomy, any more than I run around saying that clamper vans don't exist because they my autonomy is threatened by them.

Sam Vimes

Húrin wrote: »

Why do you smugly believe that you have objective truth, that everyone who doesn't agree with you is dishonest or deluded, and that everyone must think the same way as you?

1. I don't believe that I have the objective truth, all I have is my own opinion which might well be wrong because my opinion doesn't come from an unquestionable holy book
2. I don't think that everyone must think the same way as me.
3. I don't think that anyone who disagrees with me is dishonest or deluded. I just look at the available evidence and can see that it is not enough to be the only thing that you base your beliefs on. There is a leap of faith required that is not required to believe in, for example, gravity for which there is ample evidence. The available evidence could be enough to solidify faith in someone who was already predisposed to believe but it could never be the sole basis for belief and would never convince someone who was not predisposed to believe. A 2000 year old book written by devoted followers is simply not a reliable reference to convince someone who doesn't believe in the supernatural that such things are possible or that they happened back then

That's an awful lot of putting words in my mouth for a one line reply

Goduznt Xzst

Soul Winner wrote: »

If God exists then we were created for 'His' purposes, and to do 'His' will.

So basically you live a life serving Gods will, then you die, then God brings you back into existence to continue to do his will for eternity. Sounds like a hoot.

OK-Cancel-Apply

Húrin wrote: »

Why do you smugly believe that you have objective truth, that everyone who doesn't agree with you is dishonest or deluded, and that everyone must think the same way as you?

That's a bit of a straw man. He's not talking about objective morality or anything like that. In order to look at something with objectivity, you must put your own personal emotional stake in it aside.

Objective:

–adjective

4. being the object or goal of one's efforts or actions.

5. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

6. intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.

7. being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject (opposed to subjective ).

8. of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

Zillah

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So basically you live a life serving Gods will, then you die, then God brings you back into existence to continue to do his will for eternity. Sounds like a hoot.

Master loves you. Now get back cotton pickin'

Stercus Accidit

Zillah wrote: »

Master loves you. Now get back cotton pickin'

Love not whips would have kept the slaves in check.

But with the threat of eternal whipping thrown in to bolster obedience.