Breeding Suckler Cows - Good AI Sires

pakalasa

I’ve a herd of 20 suckler cows and I want to breed my own replacements.....chasing these € 1000 weanlings like everybody else.

I have used AI for the past 3 years since I started the herd. What I would like to know is what bulls in AI breed good suckler cows. I’m tired of been told that such and such new bull is the “bee’s knees” only to find out when the heifer is ready for bulling that the bull has no milk or is very bad on maternal calving.

The Simmental bull Hillcrest King (HKG) for example is in the bottom 1%(within breed) for maternal calving. Look him up in ww.icbf.com. Hardly ideal if you want to cross with these muscley Charolais or BB’s . I have heifers on the ground now from HKG and they look very narrow and tight at the hips.

I also have some heifers by the Limousin bull Malibu (MBU). On ICBF he is now showing in the bottom 3% for milk within breed. I have an old AI catalogue here which says that he has “milk in his background”.

Before I am accused of being biased towards NCBC, I do have heifers by Nino (NIN) and they look very promising. He is in the top 10% for milk and maternal calving in the top 1% across all breeds. His heifers are huge at the hips and muscley too (BLUP 119), which disproves the whole “muscle in cows leads to higher calving problems”.

Can anyone out there recommend other bulls?
I would recommend Nino.

www.icbf.com is great by the way for looking up these bulls.

leg wax

my first question is what breed are your cows

pakalasa

Hi Leg max.

..a mixed bunch, but mostly red limousins. I bought them all in, so don't know the exact breeding, they're at least 3/4 bred. Milk is ok on all of them. I'm worried that if I cross them again to Limousin that they won't have enough milk.
I'm working off farm 9 to 5 so better to have them calve away on their own.I've had no calving problems in the last 2 years. I tend to use easy calving AI bulls such as Nino, MBU(gone now) & HWN (Char). I've used Rio (saler) on the heifers.

Sam Kade

pakalasa wrote: »

Hi Leg max.

..a mixed bunch, but mostly red limousins. I bought them all in, so don't know the exact breeding, they're at least 3/4 bred. Milk is ok on all of them. I'm worried that if I cross them again to Limousin that they won't have enough milk.
I'm working off farm 9 to 5 so better to have them calve away on their own.I've had no calving problems in the last 2 years. I tend to use easy calving AI bulls such as Nino, MBU(gone now) & HWN (Char). I've used Rio (saler) on the heifers.

How do you AI suckler cows? Don't you have to keep the calves separate and let the cows into them twice a day to let the calves drink the cows. Otherwise it is impossible to see them in heat.

Bitten & Hisses

You need to look at your cows and decide which traits need improving. Then, select a sire based on your assessment. You will not necessarily breed cows lacking milk if you cross again with the Limousin.
I'd recommend you get the sire catalogue from the Limousin society and you'll see bulls there with strong maternal ratings. Broaden your horizons and don't just purchase what your local AI crowd are selling. You mention €1000 weanlings too. In my own experience, the easiest way to achieve this is with a Belgian Blue, but I'd prefer to use them as a terminal sire rather than for breeding replacements. EDJ is also very easy calving and suitable for heifers.

ravima

This weeks Journal seems to suggest that BB x Lim would give you your target calf.

pakalasa

Sam,
As for detecting suckler cows in heat, I use a Chin Ball halter on a yearling bullock. I know they say you should use a vasectomised bull but this works for me. He will need to have a bit of height and more importantly, a bit of life to him. Last years guy jumped a few gates, so jumping up on cows is easy work.
I bought the harness on the internet at the following;
www.allivet.com/The-Kow-Ball-Chin-Ball-Marker-p/50027.htm
It cost me 80euro delivered to the door. This was 1/2 the price of the local COOP.
A lot of suckler cows show very short heats. I picked up at least 5 last year that I know I wouldn't have from checking even 3 times a day. You could check them late at night, no action, and then by morning the same cow would be all marked with the blue ink and grazing away on her own.
I also tried seperating the cows and calves last year but it didn't seem to work, also way too much hassle.

camera

I have only recently started part time farming after been away from the home place for some time. I have a 9 to 5 job and would be interested in getting into sucklers. Beacuse of the job, I would obviously be interested in easy calving animals.
I would be grateful for any advice as to what breed of animals and crosses to consider ?

foundation10

camera wrote: »

I have only recently started part time farming after been away from the home place for some time. I have a 9 to 5 job and would be interested in getting into sucklers. Beacuse of the job, I would obviously be interested in easy calving animals.
I would be grateful for any advice as to what breed of animals and crosses to consider ?

What I would suggest is limosuin bull and BB cows. Limosuin are easy calvers which is a main priorty in your case. There are a few LM bulls which I would avoid for calving difficulty or which should only be used on mature cows these are rocky and mas du clo. You will achieve double muscle on some of your calves by having BB cows.

pakalasa

Hi camera,

Every farmer and breed society will tell you a different story but have a look at the following;
http://www.icbf.com/services/evaluations/files/Breedpercentiles_160409.xls

A huge amount of figures I know, but the best source of info on this.
The "mean" values will give you an idea of how each breed compares. As you can see there is a huge variation within the breed also.
"Maternal Calving Difficulty" is lowest or best with the Blonda D'Aquitaine at 5.74%, Charolias at 5.79%, Limousine at 5.97% etc etc Belgiam Blues are the worst at 11.72%. So generally, if you want a cow that will calve easily avoid Belgian Blues unless you are willing to do the odd caesarian.

The other side of the equation is the bull. Look at the "Direct Calving Difficulty" best is the Angus at 2.03%, then saler at 3.1% etc etc worst is belgian Blue at 11.6%.

The trick is to use bulls that are proven to be easy calving yet give you good weanlings. This is the great thing about AI. Breeds like Limousine do provide figures with bulls sold at sales but the reliability of the figures aren't as good.

For the cow side of things....bit of a mystery from what I can see. My smallest cow could calve anything yet the biggest cow I ever had, had trouble with easy calving AI bulls. Generally though, go for cows with big square hips and a good deep body. The tail head should be set down rather than up proud, and the back should slope from the hips out to the tail when looking from the side. She should be big and loose rather than small and compact. If you want to breed your own using AI keep an eye on the maternal calving figures. As I mentioned above, the limousin bull Nino is in the top 1% for this.

This is the great thing about the limousin breed, there is a great balance across the different traits. People didn't like them in the past because they were wild, but a lot of that has been bred out of them now.

If you are starting out, go the easy calving route first, especially on heifers. You can then go with slightly harder calving bulls to get better weanlings.
Hope this helps.

camera

Pakalasa

thanks very much for your reply to my post and the info. Huge help and explained an awful lot. Thanks for the advice

Camera

Turbury

pakalasa wrote: »

The Simmental bull Hillcrest King (HKG) for example is in the bottom 1%(within breed) for maternal calving. Look him up in ww.icbf.com. Hardly ideal if you want to cross with these muscley Charolais or BB’s . I have heifers on the ground now from HKG and they look very narrow and tight at the hips.

I find that if you use a well bred SI cow with HKG you'll get excellent calves, but any other type of cow usually only yields average results.

leg wax

with 20 sucklers i question the sence of breeding your own replacements . how many replacements do you need ,if you want 3/4 a year that means 3/4 bulls of same so called maternal traits,

Bitten & Hisses

leg wax wrote: »

with 20 sucklers i question the sence of breeding your own replacements . how many replacements do you need ,if you want 3/4 a year that means 3/4 bulls of same so called maternal traits,

It's a well-known fact that most herd health problems walk in the gate. A closed herd is best practice in this regard.

leg wax

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

It's a well-known fact that most herd health problems walk in the gate. A closed herd is best practice in this regard.

well open the gate and walk them back out:D