Standard of dealing - rake gripes at City West

William Money

i found the standard od dealing overall to be poor
i was playing PLO 2-5 and 5-10 and couldnt believe the number of
basic mistakes being made. Quite a number of the dealers were simply unable to calculate the correct raise and just took a stab.
We had one dealer make three big errors during one hand which resulted in a 15 minute delay to try and sort things out - she was removed fron the game
after the hand. This same dealer was dealing the next night in a deep 2-5 game and when she got stuck trying to calculate the pot she crinkled up her face as if she was going to cry and said "please help me", we helped her and she carried on without a bother - the next tricky pot came up she does exactly the same thing! We all felt a little sorry for her but she should not be let near any pot limit game and especially not one with big money at stake.
You would think management would have copped on and put her on a NLH
game given the previous nights shenanigans.
Several times during the weekend i had to correct dealer error re pot size.
which is a bit irritating given the fact we wer paying 26euro an hour rake each.
Another irritating factor was that some of the dealers were quite chatty,
which is fine if it doesnt slow the game down but in some cases the delaer would pause in the mix to have a bit of a conversation with a player.
This happens sometimes in club games but when you are being charged a high rake you want as many hands per hour as possible.
Another gripe was overrake - i was rked 30 euro out of a 1470 euro pot
the cap is 25 - i was refunded of course but i had to spot the error and count stack etc which is a pain and takes focus away from the new hand you are in.
We had one young dealer who raked us 2 hours worth full ring even though he was only there 1 1/2 hours and we were 5 handed for 1/2 hour
Again we got a refund but the error had to be noticed and manager called over.(several players had left table so they didnt get any money back - it would be held for them said the manager)
This must have been happening at other tables but how many people would notice (lots of people drunk etc)
Basically a big cynical rip off and an abysmal service for the money paid.
One less cash customer next year.

mary ellen

overall i had positive feedback about the dealers i am sorry this happened but i cannot correct mistakes unless someone actually tells me, will try and follow this up and find out who dealer was ,as obviously with so many dealers not all will be as good ....
mary ellen

if you want to ring give me description i will deal with this <snip> ,but for dealers that do read this i just want to say thanks to all that worked hard ,this was only complaint i got all weekend so cheers all

mdwexford

Same story at nearly all festivals, some dealers rape the rake unless someone is keeping on eye on them and there is usually some inexperienced dealers due to not having enough staff etc.

Solution = play online.

Pabloh

I thought the standard of dealers was quite good at the festival - other than some poor guys almost falling asleep after 3 days. The rake was horrendous though - best thing was to play 5-10 where are least it wasn't too bad in comparison to stack size.

NickyOD

I heard stories of some pretty astonishing rulings.

In the Ladies event one player makes a raise and another calls and thinking player 1 is all in she turns over her cards. She has aces. TD rules her hand dead and awards the pot to the other player who had Kings. wtf?

Another in the cash game. Postflop BB checks out of turn, then the SB checks and BB must now check, another player bets and it's folded back to the BB who moved all in. Dealer says he can't move all in because he originally checked out of turn. TD is called and confirms the ruling. What the hell? BB is now forced to just call. Board was 456. Player 1 had 78. BB had 23 but a flush card on turn killed players 1's action.

Only croups with little TD experience thrown in the deep end could make rulings that bad.

Conbro

Rake is always a joke at these festivels. I didnt pay much myself because I only played for about 4 hours on Saturday night, winning one pot in that time. As for the dealers, the majority of them are usually experieced and trained to a high standard. However given the Dickensesque conditions they apparently work under its no great surprise theres mistakes made. I remember talking to one dealer last year who told me he was just finishing a 13 hour shift with only one 30 minute break in the middle of the shift. The general impression I usually get from the cash game dealers is that they are totally overworked. Theyre also fond of a few bevvies so probably get feck all kip in between shifts.

nicnicnic

NickyOD wrote: »

I heard stories of some pretty astonishing rulings.

In the Ladies event one player makes a raise and another calls and thinking player 1 is all in she turns over her cards. She has aces. TD rules her hand dead and awards the pot to the other player who had Kings. wtf?

Another in the cash game. Postflop BB checks out of turn, then the SB checks and BB must now check, another player bets and it's folded back to the BB who moved all in. Dealer says he can't move all in because he originally checked out of turn. TD is called and confirms the ruling. What the hell? BB is now forced to just call. Board was 456. Player 1 had 78. BB had 23 but a flush card on turn killed players 1's action.

Only croups with little TD experience thrown in the deep end could make rulings that bad.

JP was TD in ladies event so cant see that happening

William Money

mary ellen wrote: »

overall i had positive feedback about the dealers i am sorry this happened but i cannot correct mistakes unless someone actually tells me, will try and follow this up and find out who dealer was ,as obviously with so many dealers not all will be as good ....
mary ellen

if you want to ring give me description i will deal with this <snip> ,but for dealers that do read this i just want to say thanks to all that worked hard ,this was only complaint i got all weekend so cheers all

first of all i have no idea who you are - i guess you must be the owner or md of Merrion casino

why do you need me to ring you to give you a description of dealers in question. surely you can just simply ask your cardroom manager
a 5-10 plo game- manager called in - dealer removed - saturday night - three
errors during hand - surely this wouldnt escape the attention of a competent manager
re the overrake - again a manager was requested and the 2 remaining players were given some rake back - this was at 7.30 am saturday morning
surely you can communicate with your management for a description
if you are in doubt about which table it was it was the table that michael greco and an irish lad nearly got into a fight- maybe your mgt neglected to tell you about that also

what you have just said is quite worrying - i cannot correct mistakes unless someone tells me - your management was told and again they had the same incompetent dealer dealing a deep plo game the following night

do you not keep in contact with your managers - how are things going? any problems tonight?

i dont really blame individual dealers -i blame the organisation (or lack thereof)
this is a management problem
this is why i wont be playing cash in your events again.
I genuinely believe your organisations attitude towards rake collection and service is cynical and shoddy

So no i wont be ringing you with a photofit of dealers in question- talk yo
your managers and get your house in order.

boba_fett3099

nicnicnic wrote: »

JP was TD in ladies event so cant see that happening

Yes JP did make this ruling but only because afaik all TD's were under strick orders to enforce this rule in all events. The same ruling was made several times by Dave O'Neill in the main event. JP personally spoke to the player in question after the tournament and explained that he doesn't agree with the rule himself and was sorry she had to be eliminated from the tournament in this fashion.

JP Poker

boba_fett3099 wrote: »

Yes JP did make this ruling but only because afaik all TD's were under strick orders to enforce this rule in all events. The same ruling was made several times by Dave O'Neill in the main event. JP personally spoke to the player in question after the tournament and explained that he doesn't agree with the rule himself and was sorry she had to be eliminated from the tournament in this fashion.

Thanks Carl,

Yes I was the TD that made this ruling, I didn't like making the ruling as I didn't think it was in the interest of the game. That said it was a ruling which came from the top and I was under strict orders to enforce the rules to the letter.

It was mad marty's wife that it happened to, she wasn't knocked out of the tournament with this hand and lost 2500 in chips when the blinds were 400-800 I believe.

It is a rule which alot of players told me that they didn't agree with, that said it was clearly written in the official list of rules which were freely available at the Irish Open.

phantom_lord

NickyOD wrote: »

Another in the cash game. Postflop BB checks out of turn, then the SB checks and BB must now check, another player bets and it's folded back to the BB who moved all in. Dealer says he can't move all in because he originally checked out of turn. TD is called and confirms the ruling. What the hell?

isn't that a std rule; when u act out of turn you lose your option for that round of betting?

Sparks43

NickyOD wrote: »

I heard stories of some pretty astonishing rulings.

In the Ladies event one player makes a raise and another calls and thinking player 1 is all in she turns over her cards. She has aces. TD rules her hand dead and awards the pot to the other player who had Kings. wtf?

I dont agree with this as it encourages angle shooting

Another in the cash game. Postflop BB checks out of turn, then the SB checks and BB must now check, another player bets and it's folded back to the BB who moved all in. Dealer says he can't move all in because he originally checked out of turn. TD is called and confirms the ruling. What the hell? BB is now forced to just call. Board was 456. Player 1 had 78. BB had 23 but a flush card on turn killed players 1's action.

This ruling is spot on same as if the BB made a bet out of turn the rule is plain he can call but not reraise on the betting round

this is a good ruling but to be pedantic you do not have a TD(Tournament Director) in a cash game they are called cardroom managers

Only croups with little TD experience thrown in the deep end could make rulings that bad.
Some of the best in ireland work at the irish open and this is a harsh statement tbh

.

Conbro

phantom_lord wrote: »

isn't that a std rule; when u act out of turn you lose your option for that round of betting?

Ye afaik thats the rule in the jackpot and the fits

Sparks43

phantom_lord wrote: »

isn't that a std rule; when u act out of turn you lose your option for that round of betting?

lol am i a slow typer or what

bohsman

Conbro wrote: »

Rake is always a joke at these festivels. I didnt pay much myself because I only played for about 4 hours on Saturday night, winning one pot in that time. As for the dealers, the majority of them are usually experieced and trained to a high standard. However given the Dickensesque conditions they apparently work under its no great surprise theres mistakes made. I remember talking to one dealer last year who told me he was just finishing a 13 hour shift with only one 30 minute break in the middle of the shift. The general impression I usually get from the cash game dealers is that they are totally overworked. Theyre also fond of a few bevvies so probably get feck all kip in between shifts.

I really dont believe that Conor, 13 hour shift, yes, the majority are there to work so will put in as many hours as theyre allowed, but my longest stint without a 30 minute break was 2.5 hours in the last 3 years of working the IO, usually Id be in for 1.5-2 hours with 30min breaks in between.

biteme

JP Poker wrote: »

Thanks Carl,

Yes I was the TD that made this ruling, I didn't like making the ruling as I didn't think it was in the interest of the game. That said it was a ruling which came from the top and I was under strict orders to enforce the rules to the letter.

It was mad marty's wife that it happened to, she wasn't knocked out of the tournament with this hand and lost 2500 in chips when the blinds were 400-800 I believe.

It is a rule which alot of players told me that they didn't agree with (me included), that said it was clearly written in the official list of rules which were freely available at the Irish Open.

if this is the offical rule then why in the omaha event was it over turned on andy blacks table? originally i think you made the ruling that a hand was dead when it was turned over and then the ruling was changed after andy kicked up a fuss saying that the hand should be live but the player who turned over the hand could only check or call. i agree with the ruling that was finally made but think it's a little unfair if a different ruling had been made all weekend.

bohsman

The last EPT held in Dublin Kremsner ruled that the player that turned his hand over could bet/check or fold on all streets.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

fatguy

Post deleted. Apologies 5Star. You're right, that was out of line.

5starpool

Fatguy, I suggest you watch your comments when posting here please. Bans have been handed out for less.

NickyOD

JP Poker wrote: »

Thanks Carl,

Yes I was the TD that made this ruling, I didn't like making the ruling as I didn't think it was in the interest of the game. That said it was a ruling which came from the top and I was under strict orders to enforce the rules to the letter.

It was mad marty's wife that it happened to, she wasn't knocked out of the tournament with this hand and lost 2500 in chips when the blinds were 400-800 I believe.

It is a rule which alot of players told me that they didn't agree with, that said it was clearly written in the official list of rules which were freely available at the Irish Open.

Killing someone's hand here is crazy, and it's something that can easily be exploited. I can push a large lump of chips forward making it look like I'm all-in. I get called by a player who turns over his cards. "Oh look I have a few chips left that I was hiding. I'm not all in and your hand is dead. sorry!"

Actually thinking further about it. this ruling is so bad (and no disrespect to JP who is an excellent TD) but I would simply never be a TD in a tournament where I was forced make this ruling. Can you imagine the uproar if something like this happened on the TV table.

NickyOD

phantom_lord wrote: »

isn't that a std rule; when u act out of turn you lose your option for that round of betting?

I don't think so, not once the betting has been reopened. I mean obviously your out of turn action stands but once the the pot gets raised behind you surely you get all your options back. I don't see any reason why such a rule should exist.

ITT-Pat

NickyOD wrote: »

I don't think so, not once the betting has been reopened. I mean obviously your out of turn action stands but once the the pot gets raised behind you surely you get all your options back. I don't see any reason why such a rule should exist.

Its a very standard rule. Not necessarily everywhere, but in a lot of places

NickyOD

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Its a very standard rule. Not necessarily everywhere, but in a lot of places

Fair enough, but what's the reasoning behind the rule. Why is it in place?

NickyOD

bohsman wrote: »

The last EPT held in Dublin Kremsner ruled that the player that turned his hand over could bet/check or fold on all streets.

Pretty bad but to be fair, it's better than killing the hand.

5starpool

Same think happened to me at the EPM a few years back against one of the big names. I raised, thought everyone had folded and for the first time in about 10 hours of poker decided to show before I mucked, but someone had called. The ruling was that I could not bet or raise, only call/fold for the rest of the hand. My own fault I guess though.

mormank

i was playing a 5-5 PLO game at crown on sunday and the rake was 25 dollars an hour. that is standard for that weekly game. you guys in ireland really dont know how good ye have it sometimes to be perfectly honest!! one of the biggest casinoes on the world and they charge a bigger rake than the equivalent game at a festival in ireland. also i have played tournies here in the crown and encountered dealers that didnt even know what a sidepot was never mind knowing how to calculate one!!


not to mention that the recent Joe Hachem DEEP STACK series had structures very similar to a standard 100fo in alot of casinoes in ireland. ye are blessed with alot of very well structured tournies also.

having done some travelling and playing in casinoes in just oz, holland and the states i think ireland actualy has a very high standard of dealer skills!! and also of players skills too to be fair.

i have also dealt at the irish open for the past two years before this one and was never subjected to more than 2.5 hours without a break and anytime that happened it was made up to me later.

as for the rulings that were made and seen to be unfair. while i also do not agree with the exposed hand being dead ruling i can see where the organizers might be coming from with having blanket rulings as they search for some consistenccy with their rulings. as we all know on here there are huge differences in how poker is ruled around this country and using TD's from different companies etc there could have been huge discrepencies with rulings which quite simply would have been far worse in my eyes!!

i agree with nicky that when a bet is made out of turn and the betting is re opened i see no reason why the player that originally bet out of turn should have some of his options taken away from. and for those tha tsay it is a standard ruling, i have never come across this before. having said that i do not play in the same card rooms as ye. i play out in the shticks mostly!!!

having said all this tho i do believe that as soon as we become comfortable with what we have and stop discussing it we will let all our standards drop. that goes for dealer competency and that of TD's and all players also.

ITT-Pat

NickyOD wrote: »

Fair enough, but what's the reasoning behind the rule. Why is it in place?

I guess its supposed to be punishment(for lack of a better term) for acting out of turn

NickyOD

ITT-Pat wrote: »

I guess its supposed to be punishment(for lack of a better term) for acting out of turn

Really? I don't get it. I can't think of any reason someone would try to use it as an angle shoot. Also he's not the only one who gets punished. Someone else at the table may want him to have all his options, like in the hand above.

ITT-Pat

Yeah but in the long run who loses out more by not having all options available?

NickyOD

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Yeah but in the long run who loses out more by not having all options available?

That's not really a very good reason to make the ruling, but in the hand above the player who was supposedly punished the most saved himself €800.