[Article] Plan to reduce speed limit to 30 km/h in Dublin City Centre

Amtmann

DUBLIN CITY Council plans to reduce speed limits to 30km/h throughout most of the city centre, including O’Connell Street and the Liffey quays, to make the city safer for cyclists and pedestrians.


The council lowered speed limits around most of the shopping and central business areas of the city from 50km/h to 30km/h in 2006, but was unable to reduce the speed on O’Connell Street, the quays, and from D’Olier Street to Christchurch because they are national primary roads. Unlike the rest of the streets in the city centre, the national primary network is controlled not by the city council but by the National Roads Authority (NRA).


To change the speed limits, the council would have had to have these roads delisted from the network, a move the NRA was reluctant to make.
However, amendments to the speed limit legislation made by Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey last December allow special speed limits to be introduced by local authorities on sections of national roads, subject to the consent of the NRA.


The council is to write to the NRA asking it to allow special speed limits to be placed on the sections of the primary network that pass through the central core of the city.


These are: the N1 (O’Connell Street); the N4 (North and South Quays between Fr Matthew Bridge and Butt Bridge); the N11 (D’Olier Street, College Street, College Green, Westmoreland Street, Grafton Street, Suffolk Street, Church Lane, Dame Street); and the N81 (Christchurch Place, Lord Edward Street, Cork Hill, Dame Street).


The changes will mean that the entire city area from Parnell Street in the north to St Stephen’s Green in the south and stretching as far as Church Street in the west and Gardiner Street in the east will have a maximum speed limit of 30km/h at all times of the day and night.


The council’s traffic engineers said the speed limit change would result in a significant reduction in road fatalities and serious injuries, without significantly slowing travel times for motorists.


Some 5 per cent of pedestrians hit by cars travelling at just over 30km/h are killed. At just under 50km/h, fatalities increase to 45 per cent.
“There are high pedestrian volumes in this area throughout the day and at night and very significant pedestrian crossing movements,” council senior engineer Ronan O’Dea said.


The new speed limits would also significantly improve the traffic environment for cyclists in the city centre, he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0415/1224244720732.html

Random

I don't think it's going to make a huge difference to cyclists. What they did to do is add a couple of cycle lanes to make any sort of difference for them.

And didn't they come up with this a year or two ago? I've been wondering why they didn't implement it then.

Ham'nd'egger

O'Connell Street has had a 30KM speed limit on it already for some time.

the_syco

I wonder how much the taxi fare will increase to?

bazzer

The City Centre will become a jaywalkers paradise.

markpb

bazzer wrote: »

The City Centre will become a jaywalkers paradise.

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

bazzer

markpb wrote: »

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

I think so. Traffic moving at a steady pace between, say, 40 and up to 50kmh commands a certain respect from pedestrians as they would be much less willing to take a chance in dodging traffic trying to cross the road (not that it doesn't already happen, of course!).

But I believe that peds would sense the slower moving traffic and thus be more prepared to indulge in jaywalking.

Have you seen the ones who jaywalk at the moment? When a car beeps at them for walking out in front, they either stick up the finger or just laugh! What are they going to be like now?

Mucco

I think this is a welcome move, as fast traffic can really detract from a city. Slower traffic gives the impression that the pedestrians are in control of the city centre, not drivers. However, according to the DTO 2004 report:
'Average speeds on roads into the city in the morning peak hour (8am-9am) in 2001 were 16kph (10mph)1. By 2008, without travel demand management, it is forecast that slow speeds will be more widespread and average speeds on the routes into the city will be 11kph (7 mph).'
So traffic isn't moving much faster than 30kph in any case.

Regarding cyclist safety; most fatailites are from large vehicles turning left and crushing the cyclist - this is a cyclist+driver awareness problem , not a speed problem, though I acknowledge that slower speeds will make cyclists feel safer on the road.

markpb

bazzer wrote: »

Have you seen the ones who jaywalk at the moment? When a car beeps at them for walking out in front, they either stick up the finger or just laugh! What are they going to be like now?

I'm going to play devils advocate for a minute....

Why do you think pedestrians should respect cars? Should cars, being the more dangerous of the two, not have respect for pedestrians and, in areas where pedestrians far out number cars, drive at an appropriate speed?

Taking this thinking further, why in the city centre, do pedestrians have to queue at lights and wait for time to cross? Should they not be more like St Stephens Green N where cars trigger the lights while pedestrians can cross at will? Look at any junction on or around College Green or O'Connell St - pedestrians often outnumber cars by 10 to 1.

bazzer

markpb wrote: »

Why do you think pedestrians should respect cars? Should cars, being the more dangerous of the two, not have respect for pedestrians and, in areas where pedestrians far out number cars, drive at an appropriate speed?

Point taken, but in a collison between the two, the pedestrian will always come off worst. If pedestrians obeyed traffic signals and adopted a more responsible attitude, we wouldn't be discussing this. I'm just at a loss to understand why people take such chances on the road, when in the event of a collision, they will pay much more of a price.

markpb

bazzer wrote: »

Point taken, but in a collison between the two, the pedestrian will always come off worst. If pedestrians obeyed traffic signals and adopted a more responsible attitude, we wouldn't be discussing this. I'm just at a loss to understand why people take such chances on the road, when in the event of a collision, they will pay much more of a price.

In Dublin (I can't speak for other cities), the traffic management group have publicly adopted a policy of giving vehicular traffic priority over pedestrians. They do this by restricting the number of pedestrian crossings and by giving them very little green time. Even where pedestrians are in the majority, there can be considerable delays to crossing the road. In some extreme cases, particularly where pedestrian islands are installed, it can take 5-7 minutes to legally cross the road.

For example, try crossing Harcourt St from Charlotte Way onto the north kerb of Hatch Street. The first section has a very slow light sequence (you normally have to wait for a Luas to trigger the lights) and the second has no pedestrian lights at all.

Most people when oppressed like this will rebel, sometimes unknowingly, by jaywalking. Who's going to wait 7 minutes when you might only be walking for 10 minutes? People balance the risk of getting hit with the delay they would otherwise face. If the city council want to reduce jaywalking and improve pedestrian safety, they need to re-think their policy and make it easier for pedestrians to cross the road.

antoinolachtnai

A 30km/h limit could potentially speed up traffic through the city, if it allows even a small number of traffic lights to be removed. Junction wait time is what slows down city traffic, not the speed limit.

punky brewster

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

A 30km/h limit could potentially speed up traffic through the city, if it allows even a small number of traffic lights to be removed. Junction wait time is what slows down city traffic, not the speed limit.

^^^^^^^
touche

Carawaystick

I wonder can the city engineers show how many pedestrians were killed or seriously injured by vehicles travelling between 30 and 50 kmh in the areas to get the new reduced limit?
I'd imagine a lot of the pedestrians and cyclists killed are hit by hgv's at junctions where they're turning and going below 30kmh or where hgv's move off from a stop and people are in the blind spot ahead of the tractor.

Nostradamus

markpb wrote: »

I'm going to play devils advocate for a minute....

Why do you think pedestrians should respect cars? Should cars, being the more dangerous of the two, not have respect for pedestrians and, in areas where pedestrians far out number cars, drive at an appropriate speed?

Taking this thinking further, why in the city centre, do pedestrians have to queue at lights and wait for time to cross? Should they not be more like St Stephens Green N where cars trigger the lights while pedestrians can cross at will? Look at any junction on or around College Green or O'Connell St - pedestrians often outnumber cars by 10 to 1.

There is almost a mentality in this country which makes it seem like predestrians are dispensible.

Look how their deaths are reported on the news compared to halfwitted boy racer who ploughs into a wall while emulating their middle aged British heros on Top Gear. We get to see the local parish priest on TV and everything going on about the tragedy for the family.

When it comes to a predestrian or cyclists killed, just a mention on the news.

There are times I think that the actual damage to a car in a road accident is more upsetting to RTE than a predestrian slaughtered by a driver.

I love the 30km restriction idea for Dublin.

Stark

bazzer wrote: »

I think so. Traffic moving at a steady pace between, say, 40 and up to 50kmh commands a certain respect from pedestrians as they would be much less willing to take a chance in dodging traffic trying to cross the road (not that it doesn't already happen, of course!).

But I believe that peds would sense the slower moving traffic and thus be more prepared to indulge in jaywalking.

Have you seen the ones who jaywalk at the moment? When a car beeps at them for walking out in front, they either stick up the finger or just laugh! What are they going to be like now?

I agree. The last thing we need in these times is to make the city centre any more pleasant for shoppers/visitors. Rat run Dublin for the win.

Davy

They also planned to bring in the naked streets and that never happened. Not likely to either

John_C

A 30kph speed limit will remove the need for a lot of cyclists to keep left, removing a lot of danger.

Cheeble

Doesn't it assume that there's a level of speed limit observance amongst drivers? I've not really noticed any, nor have I noticed any significant enforcement.

Cheeble-eers

cyclopath2001

bazzer wrote: »

Point taken, but in a collison between the two, the pedestrian will always come off worst. If pedestrians obeyed traffic signals and adopted a more responsible attitude, we wouldn't be discussing this. I'm just at a loss to understand why people take such chances on the road, when in the event of a collision, they will pay much more of a price.

By the sound of things, you want pedestrians to cross the road when and where permitted by you, the motorist, and not too often.

Much of what is described as 'jay walking' is not illegal & vehicle drivers must give way once a pedestrian has started to cross.

I'm at a loss to understand why car drivers are given so much priority on the roads. I think that the 30kph limit needs to be combined with an 'equal priority' rule for everyone.