Rules question re: Nick Evans vrs Leinster

gosplan

So what's the deal with that then.

As I understand it a player can be temporarily replaced, as in a blood injury but once they retire from the game, they can't go back on.

So Nick Evans was withdrawn because he wasn't up to playing on but 'Quins kept him warm on an exercise bike and when the time came tried to use him as a sort of specialist kicking team a la American football?

Papers say Williams(the injured player he came back on for) winked at him when he was coming back on but I don't read too much into that.

Anyone know what the official rules are on this.

Man the fit would have hit the shan if that drop goal had have gone over!!

Noopti

Not 100% sure what is going on with it. I think it is something about Evans being able to come on as a blood replacement, as he was substituted earlier. But he wouldn't have been able to come on if not for the injury to Williams and also if he himself had been taken off earlier for an injury. Clearly Evans was replaced because of his knee injury, but the official reason given was as a straight substitution - thus allowing him to replace a blood injury if needed.

Leinster are a bit fussed because they weren't allowed examine Williams injury, leading to some rumours that it was fake/self-inflicted, who knows.

Podge_irl

A substituted player is allowed to come back on in the event of a blood injury. However, a player who was replaced is not - essentially replacements are for injuries while substitutions are for tactial reasons. Richards claimed he was bringing off Evans as a tactical sub, which was clearly a load of bollocks, but he was entitled to bring him back on in the manner he did.

Noopti

Podge_irl wrote: »

A substituted player is allowed to come back on in the event of a blood injury. However, a player who was replaced is not - essentially replacements are for injuries while substitutions are for tactial reasons. Richards claimed he was bringing off Evans as a tactical sub, which was clearly a load of bollocks, but he was entitled to bring him back on in the manner he did.

Exactly, he was entitled to do it.
The coverage showed Nigel Owens asking the official what the first Evans substitution was down as, the official said "Tactical" and Owens said "That's fine"

The main issue is with the "injury", which seemed dodgy.

Also seemed odd that they were preparing Evans to come on before the injury even took place.

gosplan

Noopti wrote: »

Exactly, he was entitled to do it.
The coverage showed Nigel Owens asking the official what the first Evans substitution was down as, the official said "Tactical" and Owens said "That's fine"

The main issue is with the "injury", which seemed dodgy.

Also seemed odd that they were preparing Evans to come on before the injury even took place.

Kind of a pointless rule though, no?

Is there some limit to the number of tactical substitutions you can make?

puntosporting

In fairness to the lad who came off he was pissing blood out of his mouth so hardly faining injury there!
I just think harlequinns played to the rules and took advantage of them realy or should i say almost took advantage !

Podge_irl

gosplan wrote: »

Kind of a pointless rule though, no?

Is there some limit to the number of tactical substitutions you can make?

No, except in the scenario where you replace all your front row as Italy used to. Only two can be substitutions, the third has to be a replacement.

Evertonia

Did anyone watch Williams walk off, he had his head down on way over then lifted it when got close to the touchline and winked to Harlequins coaching staff with rye smile. I'd say definetly self inflicted or one of his team mates helped him out!

Sandwich

Evans was being prepared to come on with what seemed to be an expectation that he would be coming back on. Opinion. But it did seem so.

He was warming up with what seemed to be an intention to get back on. Opinion. But it did seem so.

Williams did indeed wink, and with a grin, looking quite comfortable with his 'blood' injury. Nothing wrong with that.

The "blood" (lets call it that for the moment) was coming out of his mouth. Nothing wrong with that though. Why was he letting it out?

The "blood" really only started flowing after their physio had spend a while poking around in his mouth with his fingers. Nothing wrong with that.

Not saying that he hadnt managed to fully puncture the 'blood' sachet.

But who knows.....

RuggieBear

*cough*

from 2001.

tbh i think it is far fetched and i think quinn's would have been mad to even attempt to cheat like that...

Stealdo

RuggieBear wrote: »

*cough*

from 2001.

tbh i think it is far fetched and i think quinn's would have been mad to even attempt to cheat like that...

It's not that far fetched in fairness Ruggie. When I played in school (before tactical subs were allowed) it was standard practice for the coach to have a call to tell a player he was to get 'injured' at the first available opportunity to allow a sub on.

I've deleted my sky+ of of the game now so I can't check to be sure, but didn't Williams come on while Evans was being strapped/on the bike?
I doubt it was fake blood but all the evidence suggests it was a set up. I'd say it's more likely he was nicked with a scissors before going on, then the physio squeezed a nice bit of blood from it and gave him the water to make a nice show for the ref/cameras.

No biggie for me either way, just like Neil Back etc it is all part of the game, always was. They got away with it so we have to move on.

phog

It wasn't too long ago, a recent ML game if memory serves me right when I saw Jackman being "blood" subbed and the cut was on the top of his head for most of the match but it was the right time to call him ashore, it happens, :eek:

Noopti

RuggieBear wrote: »

*cough*

from 2001.

tbh i think it is far fetched and i think quinn's would have been mad to even attempt to cheat like that...

Mad to try and get their best player (and drop goal artist!) onto the pitch in the dying minutes with only one point in it? I think they had nothing to lose at that point.

Also, a blood capsule/dye seems very plausable to me.

Ginger

Other thing is that the Leinster team doctor is supposed to be allowed to check the player as well to verify it or something like that

barnesd

Nigel Owens knows the laws of the game, Evans was allowed come back on as a blood replacement. The issue seems to be whether Williams was legitimately bleeding.

Lucky Lady

Noopti wrote: »

Mad to try and get their best player (and drop goal artist!) onto the pitch in the dying minutes with only one point in it? I think they had nothing to lose at that point.

Also, a blood capsule/dye seems very plausable to me.

Gota agree, the money in the game seems to be taking center stage and I think the pressures of same are affecting some peoples moral judgement. For Gods sake some people think its ok to insult a countrys president in order to gain an advantage :mad:
Blood capsule from a Premiership team . . . ?
Def Poss . . . . . . . . . . . . .

kensutz

HARLEQUINS v LEINSTER
Heineken Cup tournament organiser ERC has begun an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the blood substitution of Harlequins replacement (No 22) Tom Williams and the return of Harlequins outside half (No 10) Nick Evans to the playing field during the Harlequins v Leinster Heineken Cup quarter-final on Sunday, 12 April at the Twickenham Stoop.

The investigation is being carried out by ERC Disciplinary Officer, Roger O'Connor under the Heineken Cup 2008/09 Disciplinary Rules and will include gathering statements from match officials, the two teams involved and a review of broadcast footage from the game.

bleg

stuart barnes said on the rugby club that he has never seen a player come off and wink like that in 35 years of commentating on rugby

thomond2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/my_club/harlequins/8005131.stm

Looks like Quins are in trouble.

Does anyone have a link (youtube or other) to William's wink? I didn't see it.

razorblunt

I think another cause for concern was the Harlequins staff not seeing anything wrong with putting an injured player back onto the field.

That in itself is very worrying.

Sundy

Did anybody else hear Paul Wallace on the Last Word today? He said that on one of the screens in studio he clearly saw Williams take a vial from his sock and put dye in his mouth. Wallace said this straight out with no beating around the bush either.

If the ERC view that footage in their investigation Quins could be in serious trouble.

Tom10

Sundy wrote: »

Did anybody else hear Paul Wallace on the Last Word today? He said that on one of the screens in studio he clearly saw Williams take a vial from his sock and put dye in his mouth. Wallace said this straight out with no beating around the bush either.

If the ERC view that footage in their investigation Quins could be in serious trouble.

Just listened to the podcast of it there and Paul says that yes this happened, that williams was kneeling and moved his had from his sock to his mouth and then moments later was bleeding without having taken any contact. Shocking stuff now that is

2 year ban from Europe for Harlequins I think is the only fair outcome for such despicable rule cheating IMO

(and i'm from munster so I couldn't give a rats if leinster were in or out of the cup :-P)

curts82

Munster did i twice last year with props. 1/2 final, Pucciariello started was replaced but the buck got 'injured'. in the final sae with Horan. All kinds of bending the rules is happening.

phog

curts82 wrote: »

Munster did i twice last year with props. 1/2 final, Pucciariello started was replaced but the buck got 'injured'. in the final sae with Horan. All kinds of bending the rules is happening.

The front row is a seen as a specialist are and I'd imgaine that most if not all teams have replaced the replacement in the TH, Hooker or LH positions before, nothing surprising there, in fact the rules allow it to happen as it does for Nick Evans being replaced.

The problem is did Williams as has now been said use a vial to put red dye in his mouth to feign a blood injury. If that happened there should be bans and it should be for the club not the player.

ironingbored

thomond2006 wrote: »

Does anyone have a link (youtube or other) to William's wink? I didn't see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjuWyKVH3aM

C'est en francais mais meilleur du rien, no?

Tomtom364

so are we to belive that the quins just have fake blood in theis medic bag on a regular occasion?

as evans replacement didnt get injured till the 69th minute

gosplan

I know this sounds stupid and that the matter will obviously be decided on whatever proper evidence is available but

.........

THAT BLOOD LOOKS REALLY FAKE!!!!

[Jackass]

Downtime

curts82 wrote: »

Munster did i twice last year with props. 1/2 final, Pucciariello started was replaced but the buck got 'injured'. in the final sae with Horan. All kinds of bending the rules is happening.

A substitute player can only replace a player on the pitch if it is for a) blood (any substituted player, marked as tactical on the sub card) or b) if a front row player is injured.

Munster did not bend the rules on those occasions. With regard to the Evans incident, the Leinster doctor has no right to check the player from the other team but according to some doctors that amount of blood could not come from a mouth wound. Quins are likely to be done for bring the game into disrepute.

stephen_n

Wallace questioned it again yesterday in the Tribune

http://www.tribune.ie/sport/article/2009/apr/19/wallace-questions-harlequins-blood-substitution/

toomevara

This whole farrago sucks. Its against the letter of the law and the spirit of the game. If Quins are found to have stooped (heh-heh) to this depth they should be punished severely...A season without european competition would smarten them up quick-style...

Dean Richards should know better and to be honest I'm surprised, but unless we get an official whitewash, its not looking good for Quins. A massively embarrassing affair....

Gelio

The fact that he made such a big deal about the blood is what made me suspicious. Like spitting it out and getting it all over his lips.