Socket Circuit Problem.

crosstownk

Hi All.

Today I discovered that a socket wasn't working. I've no idea how long it's been like that but it's probably at least a month since I last used the socket.

To begin with, I checked the trip switches and all were in the on position. Then I removed the socket from the wall. All the wires were properly connected so I tested with a multimeter and had only 8 volts. At that point I checked other sockets and discovered that all sockets on that (radial) circuit were dead (1 bedroom, landing and attic). The house was rewired 4 years ago and I had an extension built six months back.

I went back to the trip switch panel and rapidly switched the relevant switch on and off a few times and this now has the circuit working again. Could it be a faulty trip switch and if so is it a DIY job or should I call a sparks? I'm pretty competent with electricity but obviously there is a live to the switch panel that I cannot turn off so I'd be concerned about this from a DIY perspective.

The switches are manufactured by ABB if that's of any help.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

RoundyMooney

Could be a loose connection in the board, or more likely, a faulty MCB (the switch on the board.)

It's a DIY job to change the MCB, once you knock off the main switch fuse, and work with care.

Take the opportunity to check all the connections you can while you've the cover off.

By the way, if your meter is outside, it's quite likely you may have an isolator out there, in which case you can knock that off, and that will isolate your board to allow you work in complete safety.

crosstownk

RoundyMooney wrote: »

By the way, if your meter is outside, it's quite likely you may have an isolator out there, in which case you can knock that off, and that will isolate your board to allow you work in complete safety.

Thanks for the reply.

My meter is inside so no such luck there! I don't see any isolator (see pic in case I'm missing something)



Am I right to assume that the supply from the meter first arrives at the main fuse then to the main switch before supply the busbar? In other words, once the main fuse is removed the busbar will no longer be live....?

I'll take you're advice re checking the other connections, thanks.

When the extension was built late last year, an additional MCB was fitted to cater for additional sockets so maybe something was disturbed then.

Davy

crosstownk wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

My meter is inside so no such luck there! I don't see any isolator (see pic in case I'm missing something)

You dont have one. Only the newer meters will have an isolator. You can only remove the fuse in your main panel. Your not allowed to touch the meter or the esb fuse.

With the fuse out the panel will be dead, only the terminal holding the incoming cable will be live. You could remove it and put it in a connector block if you wanted to be more certain but remember it would be live! Dont do this if your not comfortable.

RoundyMooney

Yep, as Dave said. There was the possibility of a seperate isolator, but not in your case.

Switch off the red switch there, and remove the fuse for added safety.

Be aware that the incoming phase will be live, and make sure to tighten all the bottom connnections on the MCBs at the busbar strip when you're done. Kinda dark there, so have a torch handy.

Now, when you open up and check you may find burnmarks around the top connection on the MCB in question. If so, that is most likely your problem, although it will most likely be the MCB itself, as we said, and you would be probably well advised to change it anyway whether or which.

That's an ABB board alright, but any MCB will do in a pinch once the rating is correct.

crosstownk

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Kinda dark there, so have a torch handy.

Once again, thanks for the advice.

It's not that dark - in daylight there's plenty of light. The photo has a shadow cast by the press door blocking the ceiling light. In daylight it's perfect so I'll be grand.

I'll get a new MCB in the next day or so and fit it as per your instructions.

Thanks for all the help, guys!

fishdog

I would agree with what the others have said.

There is also a good chance that there is a poor quality connection at or near the first socket in the circuit. Removing the sockets to inspect them may have disturbed/altered the connection. I would take a look here too if I were you. The turning on/off the MCB may have nothing to do with the problem.

While the board is dead you should really check that all connections are tight. If one is loose there may well be more.

The fuse unit you have is of a type that were famous for failing! I had to replace one that had simply melted. Following talks with others since I was informed that many of these had failed and there was some sort of dispute because electricians were advised to replace any of these that they had installed for free. I only heard about this by chance.

RoundyMooney

There's one on my board which I've been getting around to changing for the last two years

Aside from the front shroud turning a nice shade of charred brown it's working away fine, as I tightened everything up when I noticed the smell.

There was a similiar issue years ago with Gould switch fuses, among others. I'm not sure how that got resolved.

fishdog

There's one on my board which I've been getting around to changing for the last two years

Replace it!
I worked on a board a few years ago installing another circuit. When finished I checked that it all looked OK, everything tight etc. About 3 years later I recieved a call from the customer. There was smoke coming from the board!! I arrived to find that the cable insulation was black and melted at the point where the lug was (factory) crimped the panel felx supplying the fuse holder.

I was the last person to work on the board, therefore I guessed I would be held responsible. It gave me quite a fright, but how was I to predict this? It was faulty equipment that I did not supply or fit. When telling other sparks about this I found many knew about it and were surprised that I did not.

Since then I always insisted on replacing these units if I was asked to work on a board that had one.

davelerave

fishdog wrote: »

I would agree with what the others have said.

There is also a good chance that there is a poor quality connection at or near the first socket in the circuit. Removing the sockets to inspect them may have disturbed/altered the connection. I would take a look here too if I were you. The turning on/off the MCB may have nothing to do with the problem.

While the board is dead you should really check that all connections are tight. If one is loose there may well be more.

The fuse unit you have is of a type that were famous for failing! I had to replace one that had simply melted. Following talks with others since I was informed that many of these had failed and there was some sort of dispute because electricians were advised to replace any of these that they had installed for free. I only heard about this by chance.

it was certain makes of pull-down neozed switch fuses that were recalled(i replaced loads of them).i'm not aware of any problems with those screw-in neozed fuse units

RoundyMooney

ECSSA newsletter from 8 years ago:

You will recall that a few years ago the Director of Consumer Affairs issued advertisement in national newspapers indicating the type of switch fuse that were banned due to being a fire hazard. It is alarming that some of these unit's are still in service.

The units concerned may be identified as follows,
EEC D02 63A AC 22B
Gould 5861.063 DO63A AC22
Lindner 5861.063 DO 63A AC22
NES UE 440V 63A
REGIS OSLF 63 1P
Hi 240V/415V-63A
Hi DO2 63A 5.5W ac 22B

Remember if you do any work in an installation that includes any of the above, even if you did not install it in the first instance you, as the professional who should have noticed it, could be held liable for any damage that might occur at later date.

These ones weren't referred to, but like fishdog, I've noticed them. In fact, there are 5 detached houses on this road, all built concurrently and wired by the same contractor, and bar one that I haven't seen, three out of the four fuseholders (exact same as the OPs) showed signs of damage after nine years service.

fishdog

i'm not aware of any problems with those screw-in neozed fuse units

Neither was I!!!

Roundymoney, perhaps your last post should be in a sticky?

davelerave

yes.it'll be handy for all these 'google electricians' here!

Bruthal

fishdog wrote: »

Replace it!
I worked on a board a few years ago installing another circuit. When finished I checked that it all looked OK, everything tight etc. About 3 years later I recieved a call from the customer. There was smoke coming from the board!! I arrived to find that the cable insulation was black and melted at the point where the lug was (factory) crimped the panel felx supplying the fuse holder.

I was the last person to work on the board, therefore I guessed I would be held responsible. It gave me quite a fright, but how was I to predict this? It was faulty equipment that I did not supply or fit. When telling other sparks about this I found many knew about it and were surprised that I did not.

Since then I always insisted on replacing these units if I was asked to work on a board that had one.

Yea them fuse units are not good, i always felt that when tightening the fuse that it never felt that positive when tightening them, it will turn and then suddenly goes from easy to turn to fully tight in a fraction of a turn if you know what i mean,

In the case of the socket circuit, it helps if you identify if its the live or neutral thats the problem when doing the test with meter. Test from live to earth, if its still showing nothing then its the live is problem, if its 230 live to earth then its probably the neutral (assuming earth is ok)
This just helps narrow down the problem a little.
I had exact same in a house 3 weeks ago, it was actually the neutral was gone, and it turned out to be a faulty RCD, switching it on and off made the sockets work and then not work again with neutral being missing sometimes.
Also there was a red and black twin and earth coming up under the floor to the sockets which had magically changed to brown and blue in the actual sockets, connectors plastered straight into wall

Bruthal

davelerave wrote: »

yes.it'll be handy for all these 'google electricians' here!

Yes plenty of them around id say, maybe more should be as well

paddymick

This is NOT a DIY job just like most of the bloody jobs in this section that people are asking advice on how to do themselves.
Get an electrician.Changing an mcb is a no brainer job(when you know what your at) and should take no more than 2 minutes but just because someone decided earlier you have a faulty mcb that doesn`t mean thats what your problem is.

.G.

fishdog wrote: »

Replace it!
I worked on a board a few years ago installing another circuit. When finished I checked that it all looked OK, everything tight etc. About 3 years later I recieved a call from the customer. There was smoke coming from the board!! I arrived to find that the cable insulation was black and melted at the point where the lug was (factory) crimped the panel felx supplying the fuse holder.

I was the last person to work on the board, therefore I guessed I would be held responsible. It gave me quite a fright, but how was I to predict this? It was faulty equipment that I did not supply or fit. When telling other sparks about this I found many knew about it and were surprised that I did not.

Since then I always insisted on replacing these units if I was asked to work on a board that had one.

Anyone got any clearer pictures of the problem switch/fuse.

I'm in my 2nd year and this is the first I've heard of any problem with these so a clear picture would help let me know what should i be looking for.

I think from what I can see its an mcb with a separate fuse unit beside.

is it all types of this that can be problematic?