public finances

leitrim lad

well the situation is bad an expected tax take of 29-34 billion this year,
are we getting to little to late or can we resolve the deficit, with major lay offs in the public sector, and cuts in sw, or would this cripple the country even further into depression,
has there been enough from this budget, or could they have done more to create employment, and how will we ever get our tax take up to 40-50 billion in 4 years, would a decrease in the vat rates help
what will happen if we cannot borrow next year, due to out slipping credit rating.
and is europe just waiting for us to appoint the liquidator

johnnyskeleton

leitrim lad wrote: »

well the situation is bad an expected tax take of 29-34 billion this year,
are we getting to little to late or can we resolve the deficit, with major lay offs in the public sector, and cuts in sw, or would this cripple the country even further into depression,

Well I don't believe that the government's plan to have the deficit as a % of GDP back to 3% by 2013, as to do this they are relying on some pretty hefty increases in economic activity without any idea from where these increases will come from.

leitrim lad wrote: »

has there been enough from this budget, or could they have done more to create employment, and how will we ever get our tax take up to 40-50 billion in 4 years, would a decrease in the vat rates help

I don't think so, although in fairness the government's primary job is to reduce the deficit rather than to create jobs. To be honest, I don't think we should be looking at getting the tax take up to 40-50bn in 4 years because we are likely to have less taxpayers earning less, and the tax will bite all the more. Instead, we should be looking to decrease spending to c. 35-40bn.

leitrim lad wrote: »

what will happen if we cannot borrow next year, due to out slipping credit rating.

Soverign default, or bailout by the EU/IMF.

leitrim lad wrote: »

and is europe just waiting for us to appoint the liquidator

To be honest, I don't think they care what we do.

leitrim lad

fair points but are we another iceland, as the uk media put us

NewDubliner

leitrim lad wrote: »

fair points but are we another iceland, as the uk media put us

The answer to what appears to be a question, above, is 'no' we're not another Iceland, we have problems, but they're different ones.

With some very painful and patient economic discipline we can get through this in an orderly manner without the kind of catastrophic stop that Iceland experienced. But, everyone is going to have to take a big cut in their wages and help the economy by giving preference to local goods and services and by not wasting money on foreign holidays, luxury goods and unnecessary building work.

You should know better that to take the UK media's opinions at face value. The UK is in the crapper and it makes them feel good to take pleasure from the woes in Ireland.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

But, everyone is going to have to take a big cut in their wages and help the economy by giving preference to local goods and services and by not wasting money on foreign holidays, luxury goods and unnecessary building work.

Well some of those will generate jobs but, broadly, you're right. The pay cuts will be necessary in the public service too - I'm a little dubious about some of them screaming about the levy when they're due increments in the same year.
We need to freeze that to save more money and reduce the actual wage rather than go about it in a half-arsed manner like the levy.

Carlow52

ixoy wrote: »

Well some of those will generate jobs but, broadly, you're right. The pay cuts will be necessary in the public service too - I'm a little dubious about some of them screaming about the levy when they're due increments in the same year.
We need to freeze that to save more money and reduce the actual wage rather than go about it in a half-arsed manner like the levy.

+1
Trying to tax ourselves out of the problem will not work, particularly since the last budget took a months pay from the average worker, with a promise of at least another 2 weeks reduction for each of the next 4 budgets which means that by 2013 your net take home annual pay will be reduced by 3 months from what it is now.
As wages drop the take will need to go up so by 2013 irt could be that your annual take home is 4 months less than now

Sand

NewDubliner wrote: »

But, everyone is going to have to take a big cut in their wages and help the economy by giving preference to local goods and services and by not wasting money on foreign holidays, luxury goods and unnecessary building work.

We need consumer confidence and spending to recover if we are to get out of this recession, so "wasting money" on foreign holidays, luxury goods and unnecessary building work is exactly whats needed.

As for preference to local goods and services: if theyre competitive, then people will go with them naturally. As it is people are forced north of the border to get reasonable value for their shopping. That will only increase as people are more heavily taxed and have less and less takehome pay.

leitrim lad

so evening out the vat rates to equal the uk may be one solution, or will it just start the war up there again,

and i know you will say retailers down here are dearer before vat is added on but with deflation on the rise, they will have no choice but drop prices or close up shop, because people arent stupid enough anymore to pay over inflated southern prices

Rod & Reel

Carlow52 wrote: »

+1
Trying to tax ourselves out of the problem will not work, particularly since the last budget took a months pay from the average worker, with a promise of at least another 2 weeks reduction for each of the next 4 budgets which means that by 2013 your net take home annual pay will be reduced by 3 months from what it is now.
As wages drop the take will need to go up so by 2013 irt could be that your annual take home is 4 months less than now

If we are to take home 4 months less pay by 2013( the thought doesnt bear thinking) social wefare will need to halved in same time. what will happen to the poor souls who are now on it due to no fault of thiers. Mortgages, insurance, education, general health they can no longer afford now, whats in store for them in 2013.
i think the well being that an IRISH citzen is intitled too will no longer apply to the irish people in the near future.

And then we have the workers at moment who have mortgages, education, insuance payments and are strained at present to pay what will happen to these people in 2013 if they take 4 months pay by 2013.

Sand

If we are to take home 4 months less pay by 2013( the thought doesnt bear thinking) social wefare will need to halved in same time. what will happen to the poor souls who are now on it due to no fault of thiers. Mortgages, insurance, education, general health they can no longer afford now, whats in store for them in 2013.
i think the well being that an IRISH citzen is intitled too will no longer apply to the irish people in the near future.

And then we have the workers at moment who have mortgages, education, insuance payments and are strained at present to pay what will happen to these people in 2013 if they take 4 months pay by 2013.

Realistically? A mass of bankruptcies and bad debts nailing the banks: who themselves owe massive amounts of money to external lenders, which theyre hoping to pay back based on the income from peoples mortgages here.

The taxpayer will have to rescue rescue the banks again. So taxpayers will have their homes repossessed *and* get taxed through the nose to cover the banks losses. I wouldnt be surprised if the government is forced to reform the bankruptcy laws to deal with the issues that are going to arise over the next 4-5 years, where taxpayers major outgoings stay relatively fixed whilst their income (where they have a job at all) is slashed further and further to maintain the public sector in the style to which they have become accustomed.

leitrim lad

the icb is going to have to be rewritten,

bankers and developers and politicains in the black list section and the ordinary joe soap should have their slate wiped clean

NewDubliner

Sand wrote: »

We need consumer confidence and spending to recover if we are to get out of this recession, so "wasting money" on foreign holidays, luxury goods and unnecessary building work is exactly whats needed.

That's what they're saying in the 'Independent'. (Along with sob stories about the rish getting less rich, the imminent exile of property tycoons and advertisements for Mercedes cars.)

Foreign holidays, luxury goods and building work don't make the country more productive. They're what have made us so uncompetitive.

As for favouring local products and services, that's a patriotic duty.

Sand

That's what they're saying in the 'Independent'. (Along with sob stories about the rish getting less rich, the imminent exile of property tycoons and advertisements for Mercedes cars.)

Consumer confidence covers a larger proportion of the population than Seanie and the boys from Anglo Irish and their buddies in the building industry.

Foreign holidays, luxury goods and building work don't make the country more productive. They're what have made us so uncompetitive.

Trade makes Ireland more productive. All of the above get Irish people employed providing the service, paying tax, and spending themselves on other other similarly "luxury" goods.

As for favouring local products and services, that's a patriotic duty.

Nonsense - if a local product or service is competitive and proper, then Ill buy it. If its not, then I wont. The days of getting bent over and done roughly from behind whilst being told to just lay back and think of Ireland are over. At least as far as that analogy goes.

Ireland needs to rediscover international competiveness, to get trading with the rest of the world. Rewarding poor, overpriced goods and services isnt the way to bring that about. Irish services and goods arent somehow handicapped: we are just as capable of competing as anyone else.

NewDubliner

Sand wrote: »

Trade makes Ireland more productive. All of the above get Irish people employed providing the service, paying tax, and spending themselves on other other similarly "luxury" goods.

That's not trade, that's consumerism & Irish people are overpaying themselves so that they can afford these luxuries which just leech money out of our economy.

Sand wrote: »

Nonsense - if a local product or service is competitive and proper, then Ill buy it. If its not, then I wont.

That's just a mean attitude. If we won't buy our own goods, who will? It's a matter of supporting and encouraging local enterprise and of keeping money in the country. Those extra few cents could make all the difference to your fellow countrymen.

Sand wrote: »

we are just as capable of competing as anyone else

Those Chinese workers, locked into their factories with long hours, compulsory birth control and few holidays might disagree with you.

lmimmfn

even the very name of "public finances" is an absolute joke, whens the last time any of us had any say in whats purportedly ours should be spend lol

Rod & Reel

lmimmfn wrote: »

even the very name of "public finances" is an absolute joke, whens the last time any of us had any say in whats purportedly ours should be spend lol

we do have a say and how we say is how we vote