Dublin Bus Airlink Service - Free Travel: Will it work?

That_Guy

Hi I'm traveling to the airport from Dublin tomorrow and just wondering if free travel passes will work with this service?

Also if anybody has used this service before do you know whereabouts the bus drops you off and also where does this bus initially depart from?

Thank you.

Time Magazine

It runs every 15 minutes or so and you can get it on O'Connell St. It drops you off just beside the entrance to Arrivals.

I don't know if the travel pass works for it or not, I'm afraid.

That_Guy

The Economist wrote: »

It runs every 15 minutes or so and you can get it on O'Connell St. It drops you off just beside the entrance to Arrivals.

I don't know if the travel pass works for it or not, I'm afraid.

Cheers for that. I was also looking at the Aircoach service and they seem to accept free travel passes but I can't make head nor tail of their timetable. Poorly made website.

Time Magazine

From 7am to about 8pm, the Aircoach comes every ten minutes or so. Maybe every twenty minutes outside these hours. Again, get it up towards the top of O'Connell Street or near the O'Brien's on Westmoreland Street.

KC61

That_Guy wrote: »

Hi I'm traveling to the airport from Dublin tomorrow and just wondering if free travel passes will work with this service?

Also if anybody has used this service before do you know whereabouts the bus drops you off and also where does this bus initially depart from?

Thank you.

The free travel pass is NOT valid on the Dublin Bus Airlink service.

The 747 starts from Busaras, and picks up in O'Connell Street at the Dublin Bus office and the first stop at Parnell Square West.

The 748 starts from Heuston Station and picks up also at Ormond Quay.

It drops off directly outside the Airport terminal.

In reverse the 747 serves O'Connell Street and Busarus, while the 748 serves Connolly Station, Tara St Station, Aston Quay, Wood Quay and Heuston Station.

Aircoach timetables are at http://www.aircoach.ie/table.routes.ballsbridge.php
http://www.aircoach.ie/table.routes.leopardstown.php

Fairly straightforward I would have thought?

Tabnabs

Very odd it doesn't work on the Airlink service when it does on the Aircoach?

antoinolachtnai

I would presume it has to do with negotiating the rate. CIE are not happy with the rate the SW are prepared to offer, but Aircoach are.

AlekSmart

CIE are not happy with the rate the SW are prepared to offer, but Aircoach are.

I`m not certain that it`s a question of happiness at the DSFA "rate" for Free Travel.
One of the results of the Emergency Budget is going to be a programme by programme re-evaluation of ALL DSFA schemes.

This is going to be a wide ranging process and will without doubt have repercussions countyrywide.
It`s a question of numbers and Antoin is probably one of the best number crunchers on the boards.

If for example,the number of eligible persons for Free Travel increases by 10% over the full year and the Total amount in the Free Travel Scheme Budget decreasesby 10% then we are facing some interesting sessions between the DSFA and Operators as each side attempts to protect their own position.

The entire DSFA Free Travel scheme has been in administrative disarray for many years now,a situation which our unbridled wealth allowed us to ignore.

The Department are effectively unaware of EXACTLY how many DSFA Passes are actually out there vis a vis the number of persons entitled to them...a ticking timebomb...a smoking pistol...just a matter of time before something goes BANG !!!

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

The entire DSFA Free Travel scheme has been in administrative disarray for many years now,a situation which our unbridled wealth allowed us to ignore.

The Department are effectively unaware of EXACTLY how many DSFA Passes are actually out there vis a vis the number of persons entitled to them...a ticking timebomb...a smoking pistol...just a matter of time before something goes BANG !!!

True. I have a free travel pass and I have never been asked for identification, I have never had the number recorded when travelling by bus and rarely when travelling by train, I could be anybody. People who lose their passes just ring up and get another one, if the original turns up it could be given to a relative or friend and no one would be the wiser. This is especially true outside of urban areas where photo i.d. is not required.

AlekSmart

Aye,bmaxi,you are on the right track indeed....
In reality it was our dour presbyterian brethren up North wat rumbled uz ...or at least rumbled Seamus Brennan TD.

Some posters may recall Mr Brennan as being full of talk about the metamorphisis of our native Free Travel Scheme into an "Island of Ireland" one.

As Minister for Social and Fambly Affairs Mr Brennan was going to preside over the extension of the concept of "Free Stuff" into Northern Ireland as part of the Peace Process spin off....if only !

However it appears that Translink,who after all would be supplying their services for free to Seamus Brennans DSFA customers,were keen to accquire some accurate figures which would allow them to make cost analysis and projections of the scheme as envisaged by the good Minister.

Essentially these hard and fast figures were not forthcoming from our side with instead a variety of estimates and approximations many of which were at odds with what little actual data existed.

This methodology rather spectacularly failed to impress the Northern Ireland Office/Translink negotiators,especially as thanks to their pre-existing Smartcard based system they had plenty of accurate and up to date figures....

Eventually a face saving compromise was agreed which allows for our OAP Free Pass holders to Travel Free in Northern Ireland only after first accquiring a Translink Smartcard Freedom Pass.
Just the OAP holder is covered....no spouse...no "companion"

Interestingly this means that our Northern Freedom Pass holders utilize their Smart Card pass as a flash pass due to their Smartcard not as yet being compatible with our operational hardware.

Translink would not have anything to do with allowing us to dilute their Freedom Pass system by waving the Southerners past with their pieces of coloured cardboard and insisted on the Southerners buying in to THEIR technology.....how beastly was that ??

The reality was that Translink management recognised a Black Hole when it opened up before them and quite wisely decided to insist upon prudence in preference to populist in relation to their dealings with the DSFA.

It is if you like a Tale of Two Cities...or more accurately,a Tale of Two Cultures which accurately portrays the gulf of understanding of how stuff works which exists between our two cultures.

Ah well,Seamus Brennan also told us as Minister For Transport that a credit-card size driving licence was his number 1 priority.......where did it all go so wrong ???? :eek:

That_Guy

Didn't think my thread would ignite a small discussion/debate. But anyway thanks for your help anyway. Got the Aircoach instead. Much handier and seemingly a lot more comfortable. No problem with the free travel card either.

Terrontress

What the thread highlights is that there is no such thing as FREE travel. It is paid for from the public purse and is a benefit to those who receive it.

It is great we have such a system that ensures we do not force the vulnerable to sit in their homes for days. A society is truly judged by how it treats its weakest.

Bmaxi. I take it you consider yourself one of the "some of the people" you think FF are in government to govern for...?

That_Guy

Terrontress wrote: »

What the thread highlights is that there is no such thing as FREE travel. It is paid for from the public purse and is a benefit to those who receive it.

Does that mean I should feel guilty about getting it?

bmaxi

Terrontress wrote: »

Bmaxi. I take it you consider yourself one of the "some of the people" you think FF are in government to govern for...?

Yes, I only use my travel pass to travel to where my yacht is moored, unfortunately the government of the Cayman Islands has not yet signed a reciprocal agreement with the DSFA.
You are suggesting, I presume that I shouldn't avail of the benefits of the toadying politics of FF but as has been pointed out elsewhere, it is Joe Public who affords me that privelege, not FF.

antoinolachtnai

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m not certain that it`s a question of happiness at the DSFA "rate" for Free Travel.
One of the results of the Emergency Budget is going to be a programme by programme re-evaluation of ALL DSFA schemes.

This is going to be a wide ranging process and will without doubt have repercussions countyrywide.

Well, strictly speaking, this has nothing to do with the situation re Airlink and DSFA. This strange situation has been the case for some years. I find it hard to understand myself, but I don't know all the facts.

For the general issue: In terms of the numbers, it actually costs little enough in practice to operate free travel for the less well off, at least in urban areas.

The reason is that a lot of cost of running public transport relates to catering for peak traffic. Free travel tends not to be on-peak. Anyway, as the economy contracts, there is much less demand for peak travel generally, so capacity is opening up there as well.

The cost per journey to operate a bus is completely fixed. You might as well get as many passengers as possible.

However, if you are designing a system for more level traffic all day, the costs per passenger would be a lot lower.

The real issue now is over-capacity, not free-riding or cheap-riding.

The answer to the problem is to use the spare capacity to radically improve the service, coupled with some cuts. It should be a great time to attract people to shift to using public transport and so fill the capacity again.

The DSFA scheme is a bit of a mess, but it has little enough bearing on the overall system (although to be fair, I think it has a much bigger bearing on rural operations than on city operations).

Getting rid of or cutting back the DSFA scheme would neither improve value-for-money for the social welfare system nor would it improve the cashflow situation of the transport companies.

If the scheme were abandoned, the money would be unlikely to come back in through the farebox. I could be wrong about this. It would be interesting for someone to do a study. Maybe someone has.

Of course, I think the DSFA payment is unrealistically low. On the other hand, I suppose you would expect me to say that.

Fraud and recording are certainly serious issues with the scheme. It is hard to see how this is going to be addressed.

AlekSmart

Antoin,I take your points re the abandonment of the "Free Travel" scheme and it is not my intention to see such a development.
It was one of the very FEW original Ideas ever implimented by an Irish Government and really did hit the bullseye in relation to empowering the aged at a time when the development of Irish Society threatened to abandon them.

However,once that original target group began to be expanded to include a plethora of other Social Welfare classifications we began to see the ethos shift decidely.

There is now a sizeable rump of Free Pass holders whose concept of Public Transport is,at best,tenous,and at worst full of malign intent.

I see this on a daily (and Nightly)basis and it is worsening rapidly.

The availibility now of RFID and other affordable technological methodologies really could revolutionise how the DSFA operates the Free Travel scheme and allow it to target it to greatest beneficial effect.

I contend that the current "Bit of Coloured Cardboard" is costing far more in terms of actual and associated abuse than the DFSA OR Major Operators wish to admit to.

Some years ago some tentative approaches were made to the DFSA by Bus Atha Cliath to withdraw the Cardboard and reissue a chipped Credit Card style pass......The Department baulked when a cost per holder of 50p......(Yes 50P) was involved......Far sighted people these Senior Civil Servants eh..???? :rolleyes:

The answer to the problem is to use the spare capacity to radically improve the service, coupled with some cuts. It should be a great time to attract people to shift to using public transport and so fill the capacity again.

Hear hear to that Antoin and sure have`nt we got 120 such "Spares" comin on-line as we speak,13 of which reportedly are already gorn....although I believe the UK 2nd hand market has softened considerably since the last tranche....grrrrrr !!

antoinolachtnai

Other things have opened up capacity too. Reduced peak traffic makes a big difference to the system. The bus gate at College Green will contribute capacity, as should Macken St Bridge.

But you have to be ready to rethink schedules and routes fairly radically to get this all to work. It doesn't take much money, but it does take vision and leadership.

Maybe a travel grant in the form of two-part journey vouchers, would be a better way of doing the social welfare pass for the non-elderly. You would have to have your PPS/signing-on card with you if an inspector came on the bus. (After all, no one is going to lend their signing-on card to someone else.)

There is a big effort now to use a smart card for DSFA purposes.

a.

AlekSmart

There is a big effort now to use a smart card for DSFA purposes.

Indeed there is Antoin,but only after a prolonged rearguard action over several years by the same DFSA.

The 11 th hour Pauline Conversion only occurred some 12 months ago and was one of the "Last Minute Problems" referred to by Ms Julie O Neill,Sec General of the Dept of Transport in her evidence to the Dàil Committee on Transport.

It was during some intense questioning regarding the Massive Cost of the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group and it`s equally mystifing inability to produce such an item.

Ms O Neill described the entire project as giving her "Sleepless Nights" and then let slip about the DSFA`s last minute recognition of the Digital Era.

It would appear that the DSFA wanted all the benefits of digitization but wanted them for nowt...and as we all know too well....."there ain`t no such thing as a FREE lunch"

Victor

Penny dropped.

Of course Aircoach and Airlink are under different régimes.

Aircoach is a private commercial service. Antoin - are these obliged to take passes.

Airlink is a CIÉ commercial (non-PSO) service. So passes aren't valid on it, tours, Nitelink, etc.

antoinolachtnai

Aircoach are not obliged to take passes, nor is any other private operator.

However, private operators enter an arrangement with the DSFA under which they take passes and receive a payment.

It is hard to see how it makes sense for aircoach to accept passes, but not Dublin Bus. That is my point.

AlekSmart

Sense is not really a word we can make too much use of in Irish Public Transport terms is it...?

However as Aircoach was initially the "New Kid on the Block" I`m assuming that it wished to maximize it`s profile and the 60% (?) of ordinary fare offered by The State for a given number of pax was better than 100% of a variable which may have been far less.

I`m unsure as to the duration of the DSFA "arrangements" but I would imagine it`s open to any operator (except the CIE companies) to withdraw from the scheme should it impose financial problems on them.

My essential point remains that the DSFA Free Travel scheme is one of the major Wild Horses of any of it`s schemes with little or no definitive costs or statistics to show a value for money return.

However,the basic Free Travel scheme remains a good desireable piece of Social Support and deserves to be maintained but in order to do that the entire system needs to be put on a realistic secure footing which does not revolve around a piece of coloured cardboard.

It may be worth noting that the UK`s excursion into Countrywide Free Travel has not been without serious ramifications for both Operators AND those Authorities funding the schemes.

Recent tweaks in the UK have seen many authorities reintroduce exclusion limits for Pass Holders and it should also be recognised that the UK`s systems generally cover the Pass Holder ONLY with no automatic right of travel to any passing stray who manages to befriend the holder as the Bus trundles into view....

antoinolachtnai

Dublin Bus did in fact partly withdraw from the scheme when it stopped use of the pass during peak hours.

Private operators do the Social Welfare pass at least partly as a social service. They want to service all parts of the community, not just the most economically active part. Is that because they want to maximise revenue? Partly, but there's more to it than that. A decent bus service needs to integrate to a greater or lesser degree with the community.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Dublin Bus did in fact partly withdraw from the scheme when it stopped use of the pass during peak hours.

The restrictions that Brennan removed had been there at least since the late 1980s, so I suspect they were there since the start (late 1970s?). It made sense to allow pass holders to use available off-peak capacity - it was a benefit that the government could provide cheaply while helping hte transport companies.

However, allowing pass holders access to peak services when peak services were under pressure made little sense.

antoinolachtnai

I am not sure of the history of the thing, but I'm sure someone will be able to clarify.

I think the issue was that all the other operators in the city accepted the tickets at all times and that's why it was eventually changed.

Victor

No its was down to "Retired, in Dalkey" insisting that they should be able to travel free to St. Vincents on a bus for their free healthcare.

And those doctors had the awful habit of scheduling early appointments.

markpb

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I am not sure of the history of the thing, but I'm sure someone will be able to clarify.

I think the issue was that all the other operators in the city accepted the tickets at all times and that's why it was eventually changed.

If memory serves, Seamus Brennan dropped the restriction prior to a general election saying that a lot of older people were continuing to work and they shouldn't be penalised (having to pay for their bus) because they chose to continue to work.

AlekSmart

Dublin Bus did in fact partly withdraw from the scheme when it stopped use of the pass during peak hours

Not quite....well actually,not at all.

The restrictions on the use of Free Travel Passes were in place from the introduction of the scheme and have nothing whatever to do with the entity known as Bus Atha Cliath.

All decisions regarding availibility and use of the Free Pass are Political.

However,just to underline the vast gulf between our laissez faire attitude towards spending Other Peoples money and that of our Northern Irish brethern take a look at the procedure for a Republic of Ireland Passholder to accquire a Northern Ireland Senior Smart Pass....read carefully...and then Weep.

Senior SmartPass for travelling in Northern Ireland

The All Ireland Free Travel Scheme allows a Free Travel passholder (those aged 66 and older) to travel free of charge on all bus and rail services within Northern Ireland using a Smartpass card. Similarly, Northern Ireland Senior Smartpass holders are entitled to travel for free on services in Ireland using their existing Senior Smartpass. If your Free Travel Pass allows you to be accompanied by a spouse/partner or companion they may continue to travel with you for free on cross-border journeys but they cannot accompany you for free on public transport within Northern Ireland.

Free Travel Pass holders wishing to avail of the All Ireland Free Travel scheme within Northern Ireland must first obtain a Senior SmartPass card. To get a Senior SmartPass card you must fill in application form (FTNI1). (It is not possible to get this form online, to get a form you must contact your Social Welfare Local Office or the Social Welfare LoCall Leaflet Line on 1890 20 23 25).

The application form must be filled in with black ink only and returned in person (not posted) to your local social welfare office. You must bring the following items with your application form to your local social welfare office:

* Your current Free Travel Pass and
* Evidence of your address, (for example, a gas, electricity, phone bill or bank statement) and
* Evidence of your identity, (for example, your drivers licence, passport or another form of photo identification).

It may take up to six weeks to process your application. There is further information on the extension of the Free Travel Scheme.

You should continue to use your current Free Travel Pass for travel in this State.

Now which State do think holds its system in the higher regard......?

Currently the Republics Free Pass is capable,in Urban areas,of securing Free Travel for up to FOUR persons simultaneously.
The pass is comprised of two items,the DSFA Photo ID and the DSFA Cardboard Pass with identifier (Stripe).
By the simple expedient of the passholder using just the ID Card as a flash pass and A.N. Other using the Card,with each of the "Holders" then accquiring a "Companion" we now have FOUR journeys being made on a Free Pass which may only cover ONE person.

This scenario is far from being rare and is practiced far and wide in Irelands Urban situations.

The late CIE Chairman Michael Mc Donnell was quite possibly the first (and Only) person in authority to actually move to stem the flow of Free Stuff when he presided over Irish Rail`s decision to issue a travel ticket to DSFA Pass Holders,a move which entails the DSFA customer having to present their pass in order to accquire a ticket.

This single alteration opened a lot of eyes very wide indeed when it came to Irish Rail actually quantifying the extent of those "Free" journeys.

antoinolachtnai

So why did Irish Rail and Luas accept the pass during the morning period when Dublin Bus did not, if the decision was purely political?

AlekSmart

So why did Irish Rail and Luas accept the pass during the morning period when Dublin Bus did not, if the decision was purely political?

The original Social Welfare Free Travel scheme was always Time Limited from inception.
This restriction was throughout the CIE Road Passenger services and included the services of what is now Bus Eireann,where it was in the form of a peak-time distance based exclusion,whereby pass holders would have to pay as far as the urban boundary before their "Free" status began

AFAIAA,the CIE Rail arrangement was slightly different as at the time of the Free Travel Scheme`s inception the DART did not exist and the Commuter Rail system was nowhere near as strategic as DART frequencies allowed it to become.

As for LUAS,It`s arrangements with the DFSA,being the newest arrow in our Public Transport quiver the prevailing attitude at the time was of Ireland having so much money that the concept of people actually HAVING to pay for stuff was considered outmoded.

The DSFA and the RPA negotiated the deal they have which allowed unrestricted Free Pass availibility from the start of LUAS operations,however that negotiation process was in fact quite fraught as the DFSA were intent upon reducing the CIE groups payment and redirecting that amount to cover LUAS Free Travel.
This caused quite a degree of consternation both within CIE and the RPA as it effectively capped each of the operators at a reduced rate.

The entire saga just underlines what a disjointed mess the DSFA is presiding over.
The Free Travel scheme is crying out for somebody to drag it into the Electronic Era before it sinks beneath the weight of fake cardboard and companions !!!!

popebenny16

dont know if the O/P has got his bus or not but surely the free travel pass works on the 16A and the Swords buses so he could get them to the airport

as for the trains, yuu have to present your pass and actually get a ticket (which says its a free travel pass ticket on it) so someone in CIE is keeping tabs, somewhere, on the rail side anyway.