Rosary-chanting Protesters force euthanasia talk to be abandoned.

Hillel · 10-04-2009 7:00pm #1

"A CONTROVERSIAL euthanasia lecture was abandoned amid chaotic scenes last night while a senior British medical ethics expert had a private security escort for his own protection." Irish Independent, Friday April 10 2009

Apparently, protestors from the right-wing Youth Defence group prevented the meeting from going ahead, while Gardai stood by and did nothing.

I had hoped that the day when the type of conduct indulged in by Youth Defence was acceptable was long gone. In my view there was a dereliction of duty by the Gardai involved and they should be disciplined accordingly. Thoughts?

kraggy · 10-04-2009 9:02pm

Not sure of the ins and outs of this but it's an absolute disgrace that a talk on an issue, however controversial, was cancelled due to the fact that people protesting are against it.

It was a talk, not a vote on it's implementation.

It's a direct blow against free speech in a supposed democratic society.

Edit: By the way, where did you hear that YD were responsible for it?

jhegarty · 10-04-2009 9:06pm

Do you have a link to the actual article ?

Hillel · 10-04-2009 9:33pm

kraggy wrote: »

Not sure of the ins and outs of this but it's an absolute disgrace that a talk on an issue, however controversial, was cancelled due to the fact that people protesting are against it.

It was a talk, not a vote on it's implementation.

It's a direct blow against free speech in a supposed democratic society.

Exactly! My view is that the Gardai had a duty to protect peoples right to free speech and, if necessary, should have arrested members of Youth Defence. Had I been there, I would have made a follow-on complaint to the Garda Ombudsman.

kraggy wrote: »

Edit: By the way, where did you hear that YD were responsible for it?

jhegarty wrote: »

Do you have a link to the actual article ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rosarychanting-protesters-force-euthanasia-talk-to-be-abandoned-1705229.html

Dr Galen · 10-04-2009 9:40pm

does anyone know why the Gardai that attended didn't do anything? The article says that responsibility was left to the hospital security.

pablomakaveli · 10-04-2009 10:02pm

It's a disgrace. From the newspaper reports i read they were'nt just chanting the rosary but were shouting abuse as well. It's an absolute disgrace that the talk was cancelled because of them.

Firetrap · 11-04-2009 1:56pm

Is it any different really to protests when David Irving, the holocaust denier, is invited to speak?

Hillel · 11-04-2009 3:25pm

Firetrap wrote: »

Is it any different really to protests when David Irving, the holocaust denier, is invited to speak?

No its not - free speech underpins any democratic society.
And free speech is worth fighting for - hence my post.

meathstevie · 11-04-2009 4:29pm

Another classic case of "If you can't win the argument throw a tantrum".

JupiterKid · 11-04-2009 4:33pm

Youth Defense are a nauseating bunch of religious nutjobs who want to drive this country back to the 1930s. They are sexist, xenophobic, insular, homophobic and all in all utterly backward.

Well, they can go F*ck themselves I say.:mad: This country would be better off without YD.

turgon · 11-04-2009 5:30pm

Surprise surprise that Kathy Sinnot is mentioned in the article.

If someone was stopping a YD meeting of course that wouldnt be acceptable, one should only be allowed talk about what YD agree with.

O'Coonassa · 11-04-2009 5:51pm

lolol does anybody know where I can see footage of Irish youth chanting their Heil Mary's in protest? Kathy Sinott the hypocrite can go **** herself, 20,000 kids starve to death every single day because of the agricultural policy she supports.

Hillel · 11-04-2009 6:03pm

But, why were YD not ejected from the meeting by the Gardai?
Anyone know?

LoveDucati2 · 12-04-2009 1:13pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

Youth Defense are a nauseating bunch of religious nutjobs who want to drive this country back to the 1930s. They are sexist, xenophobic, insular, homophobic and all in all utterly backward.

Well, they can go F*ck themselves I say.:mad: This country would be better off without YD.

WOW

Anyway, religious views should have no place in government or society. If you believe in fiction and fantasy keep it to yourself.

John_C · 13-04-2009 1:25am

Hillel wrote: »

But, why were YD not ejected from the meeting by the Gardai?
Anyone know?

I'm not a legal expert but I would imagine that the rules of a University debate are not a criminal matter.

TomRooney · 13-04-2009 1:56am

Hillel wrote: »

"A CONTROVERSIAL euthanasia lecture was abandoned amid chaotic scenes last night while a senior British medical ethics expert had a private security escort for his own protection." Irish Independent, Friday April 10 2009

Apparently, protestors from the right-wing Youth Defence group prevented the meeting from going ahead, while Gardai stood by and did nothing.

I had hoped that the day when the type of conduct indulged in by Youth Defence was acceptable was long gone. In my view there was a dereliction of duty by the Gardai involved and they should be disciplined accordingly. Thoughts?

good work from youth defense, the sick act of euthanasia should never be legalised or entertained.

O'Coonassa · 13-04-2009 2:04am

TomRooney wrote: »

good work from youth defense, the sick act of euthanasia should never be legalised or entertained.

I'd soon be begging for somebody to shoot me if I was in enough pain and I'd gladly shoot members of the Youth Defence to put them out of theirs.

Galvasean · 13-04-2009 2:25am

TomRooney wrote: »

good work from youth defense, the sick act of euthanasia should never be legalised or entertained.

Says you. Of course we could never have a reasonable deabte on anything if YD's thuggish actions were the norm.

nesf · 13-04-2009 2:30am

Just as a point of note, Youth Defence are the same people as Cóir, that group that got a nice dollop of funding from McEvaddy to throw up so many anti-Lisbon posters in the last referendum.

ynotdu · 13-04-2009 3:02am

Galvasean wrote: »

Says you. Of course we could never have a reasonable deabte on anything if YD's thuggish actions were the norm.

Galvasean if it was your doing as mod here I would appreciate a reason why my post on this issue was deleted?

If it was my bad spelling/grammer at times I understand.

Is there a second forum on the same topic going perhaps?

part of my posting was I believe many who shout others down are not really sure of their own beliefes.............. ?????????/

Firetrap · 13-04-2009 11:21am

They should have let the man give his speech. People have brains of their own - they can take on board or reject his message as they want. It's so easy to preach about such matters until you come across people whose lives are such misery that it makes you stop and wonder. I know someone who's got Multiple Sclerosis and it never ceases to bother me on a human level. I think if I was in that situation - trapped in my own body and destined to suffocate when it gives up - I'd like to be hurried on my way. Life isn't precious when it involves pain and misery.

Hillel · 13-04-2009 11:44am

TomRooney wrote: »

good work from youth defense, the sick act of euthanasia should never be legalised or entertained.

Why have you 349 posts on Boards, then?

Surely politics is much too important an area to have any debate at all, on?
Should we not just leave it up to our betters to tell us what we can, and can't, do? Maybe even a little public flogging for those of us who want an informed debate on all issues in society?

Hillel · 13-04-2009 12:13pm

John_C wrote: »

I'm not a legal expert but I would imagine that the rules of a University debate are not a criminal matter.

Debate - a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal.
Public Debate - the formal presentation of a stated proposition and the opposition to it.
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=debate[/url]

This was nothing to do with a debate. This was intimidation at a serious level. "The event had to be abandoned when security staff decided he (Professor Doyal) should be removed for his own safety." "One yob bluntly told Professor Doyal that if he tried to speak he would be stopped." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6078555.ece

Youth Defence have a track record in this area, over many years.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,34934,00.html
Why was no one arrested? Names taken?

TomRooney · 13-04-2009 3:35pm

Hillel wrote: »

Why have you 349 posts on Boards, then?
Surely politics is much too important an area to have any debate at all, on?
Should we not just leave it up to our betters to tell us what we can, and can't, do? Maybe even a little public flogging for those of us who want an informed debate on all issues in society?

some issues should not be discussed publicly or normalised in any way, such as the pleasures a peodo may get from his sick acts or the same for rapists
as for euthanasia i dont big problem with it being discussed personaly, but i dont agree with the act itself.i believe it to be moraly wrong.

O'Coonassa · 13-04-2009 3:54pm

TomRooney wrote: »

i believe it to be moraly wrong.

But you only arrived at that decision by entertaining the issue. Now you've reached your decision you say the issue shouldn't be entertained. Please try to see the problem with this attitude.

TomRooney · 13-04-2009 4:21pm

O'Coonassa wrote: »

But you only arrived at that decision by entertaining the issue. Now you've reached your decision you say the issue shouldn't be entertained. Please try to see the problem with this attitude.

wake the fuuck up, i never said it shouldnt be discussed read my previous post again, please try to get your facts straight before you make silly comments.

Firetrap · 13-04-2009 4:27pm

TomRooney wrote: »

good work from youth defense, the sick act of euthanasia should never be legalised or entertained.

TomRooney wrote: »

Some issues should not be discussed publicly or normalised in any way, such as the pleasures a paedo may get from his sick acts or the same for rapists. As for euthanasia I don't big problem with it being discussed personally, but I don't agree with the act itself. I believe it to be morally wrong.

If you believe it's morally wrong, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Stifling debate on it though, now that's a different opinion. Youth Defence is an organisation peopled with folk who don't want people to be able to discuss certain issues.

I don't think anyone who personally grapples with the issue of euthanasia when it lands on their doorstep is doing so lightly. I don't think it should be equated with paedophilia either.

O'Coonassa · 13-04-2009 4:46pm

TomRooney wrote: »

wake the fuuck up, i never said it shouldnt be discussed read my previous post again, please try to get your facts straight before you make silly comments.

You said it shouldn't be entertained. The meeting you came out against was a meeting discussing euthanasia. I'm happy you've changed your mind on the issue.

13-04-2009 4:46pm

"And Paul was debating with the Pharisees; and they did offer a criticism of his teachings, and, lo, as they spoke he did place his fingers in his ears, and called in a loud voice "I cannot hear thee, Pharisee! I cannot hear thee! La la la la la!" And the crowd stood amazed at the thing he had done, and they were converted to the teachings of the Lord." (Acts 55:12)

RiverWilde · 13-04-2009 6:21pm

This is yet another example of the Banana Republic of Ireland. We're supposed to be living in a democracy where freedom of speech is welcomed. It seems that only certain 'acceptable' topics are permitted to be discussed. This is yet another disgraceful act of censorship by people who have no right to ram their beliefs down the throats of others.

If they don't like euthanasia, fine. That is their decision. They do not have the right to prevent others discussing the subject. If it does become law here they do not have to avail of it themselves.

When a person reaches a point where they lose control over their fate, will their prior wishes be recognised? This is a true test of a democracy.

Riv

Iwasfrozen · 13-04-2009 6:41pm

I cannot believe the people causing the disturbance from YD or otherwise where not arrested, This makes me sick to be honest that an open debate had to be cancelled due to some brainwashed Teenagers who don't appreciate free speech.:mad:

meathstevie · 13-04-2009 6:41pm

In he words of my deceased grandfather when speaking to a palliative care-euthenasia practising consultant in Belgium : "If anyone thinks I'm going to die like a dog in a ditch racked with pain they may think again." He died of natural causes, quite painlessly due to pain medication, the day before he was going to step out.

meathstevie · 13-04-2009 6:45pm

And as for those YD folks, I don't know the law here in Ireland but in Northern Ireland and the UK this could be treated as riotous behaviour; a lawful public meeting being disrupted by more than 2 people with a common purpose is riotous behaviour and a criminal offence.

sceptre · 13-04-2009 7:13pm

ynotdu wrote: »

Galvasean if it was your doing as mod here I would appreciate a reason why my post on this issue was deleted?

The moderator of the Paleontology forum (that would be Galvasean) doesn't have edit or delete rights on Politics. I suspect you're thinking of the post you made on the same topic in the A&A forum, which still appears to be there.

Nodin · 13-04-2009 8:21pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I cannot believe the people causing the disturbance from YD or otherwise where not arrested, This makes me sick to be honest that an open debate had to be cancelled due to some brainwashed Teenagers who don't appreciate free speech.:mad:

The cops arrived but didn't intervene. Yet the last time things got heated with a Govt Minister, I believe they did...

Iwasfrozen · 13-04-2009 8:38pm

Fairplay to YD. Atleast they have the courage to stand up for what's right. Euthanasia is wrong. I remember seeing a man, a couple of years ago, who was always full of life and spirit falling victim of this behaviour. He had an operation and caught a chest infection before Christmas. He was in a bad way but the doctors said he would recover. However, because he was in his seventies, the family decided that they didn't want the bother of having to take care of someone during the Christmas and so they stopped his medication and food. He died a couple of weeks later. That's not right and neither is any form of this murder and that's all it is. Whether it's quick or not it can't be justified. When someone knows that if they are purposely taking away something so a person will die then that is nothing short of murder.

For Gods sake man, it was a debate, not a referendom, YD have no right to stop an open debate, if they ha problems they should have waited untill questions time at the end of the speech.

turgon · 13-04-2009 8:59pm

LMaighEo wrote: »

Okay, first of all I'm a woman, and I didn't mean fairplay to them stopping the meeting. I meant fairplay to them standing up for something they believe in.

But this is how they stand up for what they believe in. One cannot really praise their motivation and criticize how they work on it.

Pride Fighter · 13-04-2009 9:12pm

LMaighEo wrote: »

Fairplay to YD. Atleast they have the courage to stand up for what's right. Euthanasia is wrong. I remember seeing a man, a couple of years ago, who was always full of life and spirit falling victim of this behaviour. He had an operation and caught a chest infection before Christmas. He was in a bad way but the doctors said he would recover. However, because he was in his seventies, the family decided that they didn't want the bother of having to take care of someone during the Christmas and so they stopped his medication and food. He died a couple of weeks later. That's not right and neither is any form of this murder and that's all it is. Whether it's quick or not it can't be justified. When someone knows that if they are purposely taking away something so a person will die then that is nothing short of murder.

That is not euthanasia, that is a selfish and greedy family not giving a toss about there granda, maybe because they wanted him dead so they could get his will.

YD are lowlife scum who should have been baton charged for their trouble, that would sort them out.

Firetrap · 13-04-2009 9:21pm

LMaighEo wrote: »

Fairplay to YD. Atleast they have the courage to stand up for what's right. Euthanasia is wrong. I remember seeing a man, a couple of years ago, who was always full of life and spirit falling victim of this behaviour. He had an operation and caught a chest infection before Christmas. He was in a bad way but the doctors said he would recover. However, because he was in his seventies, the family decided that they didn't want the bother of having to take care of someone during the Christmas and so they stopped his medication and food. He died a couple of weeks later. That's not right and neither is any form of this murder and that's all it is. Whether it's quick or not it can't be justified. When someone knows that if they are purposely taking away something so a person will die then that is nothing short of murder.

That's not euthanasia. If this is a true story (and I have my doubts), well it's selfishness and neglect. There is a difference between that and someone who's got a degenerative disease and is going to die by drowning in their own saliva or someone in excruciating pain dying from cancer.

Anyway back on topic - Youth Defence behaved in a thuggish fashion and deprived someone of another basic human right. That of free speech.

Galvasean · 13-04-2009 9:32pm

LMaighEo wrote: »

Okay, first of all I'm a woman, and I didn't mean fairplay to them stopping the meeting. I meant fairplay to them standing up for something they believe in.

They have every right to stand up for what they believe in. However they must do like everyone else and do it in the spirit of free speech and democracy.

thebigcheese22 · 13-04-2009 9:38pm

Galvasean wrote: »

They have every right to stand up for what they believe in. However they must do like everyone else and do it in the spirit of free speech and democracy.

Apparantly religious nuts aren't treated like everyone else.

Its a ****ing disgrace the Gardai didn't intervene as they should have. A different standard is applied to religious protesters waving their rosary beads then to every other citizen of this country.

I repeat, this incident has made me even more proud to be an atheist.

Hillel · 13-04-2009 10:03pm

Nodin wrote: »

The cops arrived but didn't intervene. Yet the last time things got heated with a Govt Minister, I believe they did...

My thoughts exactly. Ireland in 2009 - you can speak freely on any topic we, i.e. the establishment, approve of. I really wish I had been at that "debate", I would be insisting on an explanation, via the Garda Ombudsman's office if necessary, as to why the Gardai did not intervene.:mad:

Hillel · 13-04-2009 10:21pm

LMaighEo wrote: »

I didn't mean fairplay to them stopping the meeting.

So you do believe in democracy and free speech, then?

LMaighEo wrote: »

I meant fairplay to them standing up for something they believe in.

The issue was not someone "standing up for something they believe in". The issue was stopping others discussing something they may, or indeed may not, believe in. From your comment above, can I take it that you do not approve of the methods used by YD?

turgon · 13-04-2009 10:40pm

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

I repeat, this incident has made me even more proud to be an atheist.

Thats like saying you dislike all Muslims because a select few decided to fly into the twin towers.

But I see your motivation.

ilkhanid · 16-04-2009 5:58pm

Never mind the principle of the affair....who decides who is to speak in public then? Is it to be whatever protesters can shout loudest and make the most commotion? If so it's a poor outlook for free speech in Ireland.
A letter in today's IT quotes from the European Court of human Rights.
'Freedom to utter the acceptable is not free speech...the point of the right....is to protect not only that which is "favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend,shock or disturb the State or any sector of the population".Spot on.
But then it seems the right to free speech has always been regarded sceptically in Ireland, from the days of "No free speech for traitors" of the early years of this century to Fianna Fails rage over a couple of unexceptionable paintings and the reporting on Television of those painting.
And it isn't the first time the Government of the day has taken umbrage over some criticism on TV. Other groups would do well to take note of the Courts comment, namely those who disrupted the David Irving meeting,those Islamists-radical or otherwise-who are demanding the right to never be offended and those people in the UK government who are hastening to indulge the ever-widening and increasing demands of the religious extremes.

Rosary-chanting Protesters force euthanasia talk to be abandoned.

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