Would it be worth it?

joe freethinker

Question, would you accept a very considerable tax hike if it ment 100% free health and education to 3rd level, or has the PD existance in past governments made you convert to low tax and low government involvement??And who like me blames PD policy for much of the economic downturn???
In the current climate can we be really sad that they're gone????
Anti/Pro PD's why?????
Mary Hearny in health discuss!!!:pac::pac::pac:

silverharp

it was done to death here , I think the conclusion was no:D

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055529448

af_thefragile

I don't believe in more taxes (infact i say the government taxes people a lot already!).
I believe in free health care for the needy. But i don't believe in free 3rd level education for everyone.

The universities need to grow and become better equipped to teach the students necessary skills in this fast moving 21st century world. We need universities which can produce highly skilled people who can work up a modern 21st century infrastructure.

The way this can be done is that government subsidises universities more doing it by increasing taxes. Or the universities take in more foreign students charging them biblical amounts of fees for the course while making it harder for Irish students to get in.
Or the universities charges a flat affordable fees to everyone which people can afford and make it easier for everyone to get in to do their desired course.
Also when one pays for a course, it makes the person to work harder so that they can get their money's worth from the course! Instead of just dossing around and scraping though the years!

And then probably for the people who can't afford university fees, they could apply for a student loan or ask the government for social support so the government can pay the people to go to university instead of paying them to sit at home!


The current climate is a result of all of these things. People aren't studying hard enough to get into a good course in a good university. Even the universities are making it tougher for people to get in cuz they have limited seats and all. Which has resulted in not enough people studying hard and getting a proper job to work towards progress while more and more people dropping out and looking for low pay jobs like working in a store or something like that.

When people pay for the university, they support the university so that the university can support them and have the resources let more people in to the high level courses. The person is paying for the course so he is bound to work harder to do better and come out with a good degree and the skills to work in a proper industry/services which will help the country progress forward towards development.
And also, people won't have enough money to waste on crap they don't need!


So i believe completely in a low tax, low government involvement economy.

Iwasfrozen

Nowhere in your last post did you say why Private funding for Universities where better then public finding.

1). You said people will study harder because they themselves are paying for their education. But how many students do you know that pay their own way through Universities ? Students have no income and are so forced to ask their parents for funding is getting money of their parents not the same as getting money off the Goverment ?

2). You allso say you support Low Tax, Low Goverment policies in education but you also say that the Goverment should pay for any student whose Mummy or Daddy cannot pay for their childdrens education. How do you expect the State to pay for their education in a Low Tax society ?

3). You say that people who cannot afford University but don't want to scronge off the goverment should take out student loans, but what is the guarantee that a privatly funded Bank will give a student loan to a person looking for it, if they don't get it ? Should they ask the State for funding, and if so see point 2).

We need now more then ever a highly educated workforce who can turn the economy around for us and we are not going to get that by charging huge sums from students who have no form off income other then their parents, we as a Nation must make sure every student recieves the highest education possible and we cannot do that by "privatising" one off the most important sectors off our society, some things should be commercial others shouldn't.
And thats why I support a high Tax, high Government involved society.

af_thefragile

From what i've seen the government is more likely to do a lousy job when it comes to education. Thats why majority of students in private schools always get better grades than in public schools.

1. I'm not speaking about stratospheric amounts of fees here. I'm speaking of a fees that is affordable to an average middle class family. Economies of scale, when everyone is paying a fees, it doesn't need to be too high. People waste their money on all sorts of things they don't need. Instead they could save up for their kids education. Students who don't wanna depend on their parents money can work to save up the money too or look for the loan or social support. My whole ideology is based on the concept of saving and spending where its necessary.

2. Also the government wastes a lot of money too. I am not a supporter of the dole. I don't believe in people getting paid for being lazy and staying at home. Everyone needs to go to school and make sure they get into college. If they're lazy and drop out, its their problem and they've gotta deal with it. The government isn't gonna pay them for their mistakes or laziness. And so the money the government could save off the dole, it could spend on the ones who actually wanna do something with their lives.
My ideology here is low taxes + reduced spending + increased revenue = better state.

3. Banks are ready to offer people mortgages they can barely afford but won't give a relatively small amount of loan to a student who need to pay off his college fees? In a proper free market there will be enough strong banks to maintain a healthy competition that students wouldn't need to worry about not being able to get a student loan off a bank. The government here could also give the banks initiatives to give out student loans though i believe in minimal involvement of the government with businesses.


We need a highly educated workforce who work towards economic and scientific progress rather than maintaining an economy from the verge of collapse!
This will only happen through raising the standards and quality of education. The government can't do this as it has always done a lousy job with education. Communism will not achieve progress (atleast not right now). The way progress is achieved is through competition in a free market where the people can decide which institution is worthy of their time and money while the lousy institutions need to either work harder to catch upto the standards of the good ones or find somethings else to do that they're good their.

The government's financial support of institutions will only lead to the lousy institutions surviving, leaching off the good ones, disrupting natural competition and hindering progress.
If the government can step away then only the best institutions will survive making sure every member of the institution gets the best of education and resources.
This is how nature works and makes progress. Through proper free market competition.
The economic collapse we're facing is a result of what the government has been doing wrong till now and which is exactly what you're suggest we should carry on with.

Iwasfrozen

1. I'm not speaking about stratospheric amounts of fees here. I'm speaking of a fees that is affordable to an average middle class family. Economies of scale, when everyone is paying a fees, it doesn't need to be too high. People waste their money on all sorts of things they don't need. Instead they could save up for their kids education. Students who don't wanna depend on their parents money can work to save up the money too or look for the loan or social support. My whole ideology is based on the concept of saving and spending where its necessary.

1).Actually, with no help to foot the bill fee's can quickly become "stratospheric", just look at the American model. I don't follow your economies of scale argument, if we look at the cost to educate an average person in 3rd level for four years minus board, food etc. then it will cost the tax payer a simple €0.02 levy off their take home pay for every man woman and child in the country, if there are circa. 50k students in college in Ireland then that is just 1k of the take home pay of the working people of this country, it is definetly worth the cost to educate all of our students in 3rd level regardless of background.
What about times of economic crisis such as now ? How can a student find a job in this climate ? Dose that mean students in 2009 that don't whant to scronge off their parents shouldn't go to college this year ?
How can a potential Student rely on Social Support now that you have effectivly devolved the Government ? Alas we can't have it both ways.
I will talk about the Banking Service in my next point.

2. Also the government wastes a lot of money too. I am not a supporter of the dole. I don't believe in people getting paid for being lazy and staying at home. Everyone needs to go to school and make sure they get into college. If they're lazy and drop out, its their problem and they've gotta deal with it. The government isn't gonna pay them for their mistakes or laziness. And so the money the government could save off the dole, it could spend on the ones who actually wanna do something with their lives.
My ideology here is low taxes + reduced spending + increased revenue = better state.

2).I know the Government wastes money, but that is why we must reform the Government, not scrap it. I am not a supporter of the Dole either but somethimes it is needed, for example people who are in between jobs need an income, I would suggest a cut off point for the Dole but of course extend that cut off point in times of economic crisis to take into account the increased problems in finding a job. Of course if some one drops out that is their own problem, no one is disputing that. You say the Government should spend the saved money on people that want to do something with their lives, how so ? By investing it in 3rd level education as per my idea ?
My ideology as always is High Taxes + Increased Spending + Increased revenue = Better Society

3. Banks are ready to offer people mortgages they can barely afford but won't give a relatively small amount of loan to a student who need to pay off his college fees? In a proper free market there will be enough strong banks to maintain a healthy competition that students wouldn't need to worry about not being able to get a student loan off a bank. The government here could also give the banks initiatives to give out student loans though i believe in minimal involvement of the government with businesses.

*As promised my take on the banks*
3).Agreed, In our previous Capitalist Society, Banks ran ammock, offering 120% morgages to anyone with a PPS number. Why ? Simple, Banks have no morale obligation to Society. Indeed a Banks only moral obligation is to gain dividends to their shareholders. Why do we let these people control all the capital in this once Great Nation ? Simple, Americanization, every country in the world is now run on the Bastardized system off the old merchent class that came to this world via old time Kings sneaking around the Popes laws on interest rates. I would go on but this is not the topic.
Simply put a privatly run Business will allways put the needs off their Fat-Cat Shareholders before that of the People and that is why the State should Nationalise all banks. In a Socialist market the people will run the Banks and Capital will be granted in a controled sense for the good of the society.

We need a highly educated workforce who work towards economic and scientific progress rather than maintaining an economy from the verge of collapse!
This will only happen through raising the standards and quality of education. The government can't do this as it has always done a lousy job with education. Communism will not achieve progress (atleast not right now). The way progress is achieved is through competition in a free market where the people can decide which institution is worthy of their time and money while the lousy institutions need to either work harder to catch upto the standards of the good ones or find somethings else to do that they're good their.

Agreed with half of it, BTW Socialism not Communism , However I disagree with you on how to achieve this, You say people must choose the institutions that are worthy off their time, I say that their should only be one institution run by the People, So instead of chosing the best institution you know the institution will be good because you are paying for it. Also because it is run by the state you will have a vote in how it will be run so you can be certain that the quality will always be high. Of course not all businesses will eb state run, that would just be a bad, like the Soviet Union. But the important institutions such as Banks and Hospitals and Schools must be State run, the smaller institutions such as the local corner shop of a Supermarket chain will act as "Buffers" to an economic crisis such as this one.

P.S Sorry if some of this post is hard to read/dosen't make sense, it's late.

af_thefragile

1. You see, again due to the low tax model the fees will remain affordable (even if its a bigger number than today). Low taxes mean both the institution and the consumer/people have more money in their pockets because the government is leeching off less from them. There is more power to the people and the individual institution. So now as the institutions have more money, they can set up a fees that can be affordable to the average middle class person. And as the people have more money to themselves too, they can afford bigger amounts and have the power to choose where they wanna spend their money. Proper freedom of choice. Not a quasi one that we've got today.
Instead of taking that additional €0.02 from the people for educational benefits and increase income tax to 30-40%, the government could instead reduce the income tax to 20% or even less and people suddenly have atleast €10k in their bank account which they themselves could spend on college fees or whatever they wanna. Power with the people to spend their money where they wanna like in a proper free market state.

2. The current economic crisis is because the government has screwed over with the natural order of free market system by turning it into socialism by allowing the failed institutions to survive. This screws up natural competition. Now the successful institution can not gain the benefits of success (which in turn will be available to the people) cuz the failed institutions are being kept alive by the government to leech off the successful ones! So in a proper free market society there will be top quality institutions always improving cuz they're in constant competition with other institutions around them. Same goes for banks too. There will always be one bank that will give out student loans and will reap the rewards of doing so. Coming back to governments social support, it is only given to people who can't afford going to college. So the government is wisely spending its money on the people who are dedicated rather than wasting it on everyone most of whom are lazy. Its quality over quantity.
The governments role is to protect laws and rights of people and set up foreign policies while staying out of the business markets and people's personal lives!
This puts back the power from the government into the hands of the people and the institutions and they will use it much more wisely than the government would.

3. Coming to private businesses and banks. In a proper free market system the businesses WILL have to put the consumer before the shareholder because the consumer has the power to let the business succeed or fail depending on how good a job the business is doing. Quality and reputation starts to pay a bigger role. Right now businesses are leeching off people cuz they know if they fail there's always the soft bed set up by the government they can fall back on. And so businesses like GM and AIB who do lousy jobs continue to do a lousy job cuz they know the government will always bail them out!
If the government wasn't behind the businesses and there was no soft bed for the businesses to fall back on then the businesses will be compelled to work harder to gain the consumers interest and loyalty by producing better quality products cuz if they're doing a lousy job in a free market there is always another business doing a better job than you and that business will end up attracting all the consumers while your business fails and you can't sleep soundly as you know this time if you fail you're gonna fall real hard!
This is what's gone wrong in america. The government has let the business infiltrate the government and now in america there is no difference between business and government. Its a socialist state! The president has little powers. The people have little power. Its only the big corporations!


Socialism by its very definition is an oxymoron! Socialism speaks about a state with no classes where everyone is equal and all but it forgets about the providers on top of you telling you what to believe, how to live your life, where to spend your money and all. Its a state of a shepherd guiding a flock of sheep! Its like in the movie Wall-E where everyone lives in a big bubble where everything is provided to them and they don't need to think anymore as all human intellect is dumbing down. So yes, everyone is educated, everyone has a home, everyone has food and everything one would need at their doorstep. But its quantity over quality. This where we are heading towards as the small group of elite who run the government keep getting more and more powerful while the people keep getting dumbed down to not complain about their monotonous 9 to 5 jobs that they hate with pays enough to barely make it through the month and not notice their rights and freedom slowly being pulled away from under their feet.

Its a state where people wake up every morning, get ready to go to work, get on the lousy inefficient public transport listening to a dumb radio or reading a dumb news paper, get to work, finish their dumb monotonous job, get back home, sit in front of a dumb box absorbing in all the dumb **** it throws at you, go to bed, wake up and repeat their dumb schedule without for once stopping and thinking about why the **** are they doing what they're doing and if they have to do that?!
Its a state with people just smart enough to get about doing the job assigned to them but not realise or question their rights and freedom and not complain about their depreciating quality of life!

This is the world we're living in today. Its called capitalist but in fact its socialist! That Karl Marx fantasy land perfect society doesn't exist!

Thats why i say, government should step away and give the power back into the people's hand. Nature has always been the best judge of things and will always remain. Some elite doesn't need to decide what's good for us and what's not. People need to wake up, get smart, take responsibility and start thinking for themselves!!


P.S. sorry if i went off on a little rant but i just had to get my point across.

Belfast

joe freethinker wrote: »

Question, would you accept a very considerable tax hike if it ment 100% free health and education to 3rd level, or has the PD existance in past governments made you convert to low tax and low government involvement??And who like me blames PD policy for much of the economic downturn???
In the current climate can we be really sad that they're gone????
Anti/Pro PD's why?????
Mary Hearny in health discuss!!!:pac::pac::pac:

I think the HSE is that incompetent and wasteful that no mater how much money is spend on it it will still be a mess.

I am not sure that if it was fund by the private sector that it still would not be a mess.

Throwing money at a failed system private or public in my opinion is not the answer.

af_thefragile

Belfast wrote: »

I think the HSE is that incompetent and wasteful that no mater how much money is spend on it it will still be a mess.

I am not sure that if it was fund by the private sector that it still would not be a mess.

Throwing money at a failed system private or public in my opinion is not the answer.

Someone's gotta run the hospitals.
We've seen the government completely screw it all over.
I think its time we give the private sector a chance to run it.

BroomBurner

I would pay hgher taxes for a free health care system and free education up to Secondary level. I wouldn't do it in this country though.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Joycey

Yes, but only if it came with a correlative degree of accountability so waste, inefficiency and corruption could be minimised.

af_thefragile

Joycey wrote: »

Yes, but only if it came with a correlative degree of accountability so waste, inefficiency and corruption could be minimised.

A private organisation wouldn't have the time and money to be inefficient and corrupt. Especially with a sector like health where a lot of money at very large stakes (people's lives) is involved.

Belfast

af_thefragile wrote: »

Someone's gotta run the hospitals.
We've seen the government completely screw it all over.
I think its time we give the private sector a chance to run it.

In Germany health care is paid for by the state, but unlike the public or private system here, German doctors can and do prescribe herbal medicines as well as more conventional ones.
Herbal medicine is part of German doctors training, here the training tell them it has no part in modern medicine.

"In Germany, roughly 600 - 700 plant-based medicines are available and are prescribed by approximately 70% of German physicians."
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/herbal-medicine-000351.htm

Integration of Complementary and Alternative Medicine into Family Practices in Germany: Results of a National Survey
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nep019v1

af_thefragile

Belfast wrote: »

In Germany health care is paid for by the state, but unlike the public or private system here, German doctors can and do prescribe herbal medicines as well as more conventional ones.
Herbal medicine is part of German doctors training, here the training tell them it has no part in modern medicine.

"In Germany, roughly 600 - 700 plant-based medicines are available and are prescribed by approximately 70% of German physicians."
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/herbal-medicine-000351.htm

Integration of Complementary and Alternative Medicine into Family Practices in Germany: Results of a National Survey
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nep019v1

Just had to write in exam the other day about complementary medicine.
I guess we here in Ireland don't trust them too much as they don't go through all the conventional tests and trails that all other drugs do. Its also mostly cuz we don't even properly know their method of action and there is no scientific evidence they work.

But not all CAMs are completely safe. They have their side-effects and adverse effects too.

Anyway, what really has this gotta do with privatization of healthcare?...

I see the biggest benefit of privatization of healthcare is that people will look after themselves much better. As if they abuse their body, they'll have to pay for it. This will make them more careful as to what they do to themselves and what they put in their body...

Lockstep

Yes, I'd see no problem with paying higher taxes to avail of these.
As it is, the HSE is an utter disaster. If reform was given to it then I'd be happy to pay higher taxes to secure free healthcare.

Belfast

af_thefragile wrote: »

Just had to write in exam the other day about complementary medicine.
I guess we here in Ireland don't trust them too much as they don't go through all the conventional tests and trails that all other drugs do. Its also mostly cuz we don't even properly know their method of action and there is no scientific evidence they work.

you are correct they they don't go through all the conventional tests and trails that all other drugs do.

The test are designer for drug with a single active ingredient. This tends to be how convention drugs work.

Herbal medicines often have multiple active ingredients and tend to be absorbed more slowly in to the body. Plus with no patents in herbal medicine who will pay for the tests?

af_thefragile wrote: »

But not all CAMs are completely safe. They have their side-effects and adverse effects too.

Not sure that CAMs are. if you are taking about herbal medicine yes their side-effects and adverse effects too.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Anyway, what really has this gotta do with privatization of healthcare?...

Public health care in Ireland only uses conventional medicine.

af_thefragile wrote: »

I see the biggest benefit of privatization of healthcare is that people will look after themselves much better. As if they abuse their body, they'll have to pay for it. This will make them more careful as to what they do to themselves and what they put in their body...

Not sure it would work out that way in practice. people then to think it will never happen to them.

af_thefragile

Belfast wrote: »

you are correct they they don't go through all the conventional tests and trails that all other drugs do.

The test are designer for drug with a single active ingredient. This tends to be how convention drugs work.

Herbal medicines often have multiple active ingredients and tend to be absorbed more slowly in to the body. Plus with no patents in herbal medicine who will pay for the tests?

Guess we need to put more scientific research into herbal medicins and how they really work. There's a lot conventional medicine can learn from this field. But i'll bet you a government based health system will never do this cuz they'll always see this as something outside their budget which is not necessary. It can only be a private organisation which can be willing enough to perform the research.

Not sure that CAMs are. if you are taking about herbal medicine yes their side-effects and adverse effects too.

CAM= complementary and alternative medicines.
Basically they are any medicines outside the conventional pharmacy drugs.

Public health care in Ireland only uses conventional medicine.

Public health care in Ireland has a lot more problems than conventional medicine. As I mentioned before, the health care system is very tightly regulated, it run at a loss and its very inefficient. The government will never have the time, money and intellect to get into CAM research.
The people who run the healthcare system know jack**** about medicine. All they know to do is to create structural plans and budgets.
Something they're very inefficient at.

]Not sure it would work out that way in practice. people then to think it will never happen to them.

It wouldn't completely eradicate the problem. But in general it'll make people more conscious of their health. It'ld be the case as "i'm not gonna smoke too much cuz if I get lung cancer, who's gonna pay the hospital bills?!".
It might not work very well in practice, But even if it reduces the incidence by just 1 person in every 100, i'ld say its much more efficient than those add campaigns they spend millions on.

Belfast

af_thefragile wrote: »

Guess we need to put more scientific research into herbal medicins and how they really work. There's a lot conventional medicine can learn from this field. But i'll bet you a government based health system will never do this cuz they'll always see this as something outside their budget which is not necessary. It can only be a private organisation which can be willing enough to perform the research.

You may be right on that.

af_thefragile wrote: »

CAM= complementary and alternative medicines.
Basically they are any medicines outside the conventional pharmacy drugs.

thanks

af_thefragile wrote: »

Public health care in Ireland has a lot more problems than conventional medicine. As I mentioned before, the health care system is very tightly regulated, it run at a loss and its very inefficient. The government will never have the time, money and intellect to get into CAM research.
The people who run the healthcare system know jack**** about medicine. All they know to do is to create structural plans and budgets.
Something they're very inefficient at.

True.

af_thefragile wrote: »

It wouldn't completely eradicate the problem. But in general it'll make people more conscious of their health. It'ld be the case as "i'm not gonna smoke too much cuz if I get lung cancer, who's gonna pay the hospital bills?!".
It might not work very well in practice, But even if it reduces the incidence by just 1 person in every 100, i'ld say its much more efficient than those add campaigns they spend millions on.

as you say it is debatable.

The real problem with debate on health care is it is all about how pay for it, public or private.

The problem of why are more people getting sick and why is healthcare seems increasingly to be about treatment of long term conditions rather than cure.

Why has medical care become so expensive world wide.

In the film "Super size me" Morgan Spurlock's doctor said they did not understand how he got so sick eating a high fat diet in MacDonalds for 30 days.

The question is why do they not know?

smk89

Im from the north and honestly I'd say it is. Ive grown up with the NHS and (totally) free education and it seems such a different system from that which you have. I can say that I agree with a private healthcare system

Belfast

I think they turned to Complementary and Alternative Medicine as a result of a lack of money.

Family Medicine in Cuba: Community-Oriented Primary Care and Complementary and Alternative Medicine
http://www.jabfm.org/cgi/content/full/18/4/297

Cuba’s Green Revolution
The balm to the Achilles heel of Castro’s Revolution
By Geoff D’Arcy, Lic. Ac., D.O.M.
http://www.ibike.org/cuba/library/CU%20medicine%20holistic.doc

Green medicine in Cuba.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Green+medicine+in+Cuba-a0154006899

Alternative Health Care Flourishes in the Caribbean
Why is a tiny tropical country incorporating acupuncture and herbal medicine into its medical system? The answer may surprise you.
http://www2.vhi.ie/topic/cuba