Fading in the last 10k of a marathon

--amadeus--

We all do it, some more so than others. And this cycle it really came out and bit a lot of us quite hard.

So what can we do differently to prevent it?

Speaking personally my splits fell off a cliff from 32k in (going from 4:10 - 4:20ish to 4:30, 4:45 and as far as 4:55/km). Breathing and HR were under control. legs were sore but not outlandishly so. It was just that I was slowing down - the same effort was resulting in less speed.

In training I was lax, I missed a couple of weeks and a few midweek sessions. But I did get in most of teh LSRs (2*21 and 3*20). I did up to 14 @ PMP and I am an experienced marathon runner with several years consistent training behind me.

On teh day I did run aggressively (for me) and my target was quite ambitious. Fuelling felt fine - gels every 10k up to teh 30ikm mark and water at all teh stops. Carb loaded for 3 days before hand and was fully hydrated. Weather was warm but not really a killer heat.

So what do you all think? What can those of us who fade do differently to prevent it?

TFBubendorfer

In training I was lax, I missed a couple of weeks and a few midweek sessions.

Ok, it's an easy target, but lax training kinda implies a bad ending in a marathon. I don't pretend to have the answer.

Last year in Cork I got faster and faster over the last 6 miles. In fact, the last 2 miles were the fastest ones.

Then in Dublin I hit the wall hard, and the last 6-7 miles were painful, slow and frustrating.

The preparation for both marathons had been fairly similar. In other words, I'm not sure myself what to do in order to avoid the death march at the end. I think I got the pacing wrong in Dublin and ran a tad faster than I was capable of over the entire distance. Marathons are beasts. Even small mistakes are amplified when you're low on energy after 20 miles.

HardyEustace

I died on my feet for the last 10k of Paris but for me I know it was because I missed out on 4 weeks of high mileage due to itb/hamstring problems.

I've never known pain or misery or exhaustion like it. It really was soul destroying. Even now, I'm still finding it hard to get my head around being on the start line of another race.

I can't even be pleased that I got through it, the pain is still fresh!

--amadeus--

Lax training will get you, no doubt about that. The higher mileage P&D plans have LSRs of up to 24 miles in them, anyone tried that and what did you think?

Peckham

Have heard that fast-finish long runs in training can really help with a strong finish. However, I used these quite a lot in training for DCM last year, and still finished poorly (but that was down to bad pacing (chasing down Sungod!) in the middle part of the race than anything else).

cfitz

Perhaps it's to do with people doing very low mileage relative to their racing distance. In the past I used to find that the last 2km of a 10k race often felt like a real struggle to hang in there. But when I upped my weekly mileage from around 40 to 50/60, I felt more comfortable with the race distance. I'm not saying that upping your mileage is going to improve your PB (though I suspect it would), but that it may make you able to run a more consistent pace for the full marathon and feel stronger in the later stages.

shels4ever

Great questions for me at the moment, as I've just decided on my marathon pacing this week. For me I would expect to tire over the last 10k but have set a pacing plan that should allow me to at least hold my pace if not speed up over the last 10k.

If you look at the world record splits for the marathon the last 10 k was the fastest.

I think training is the key and the further you go down the field the larger the fade will be, seems to be in line with the amount of training done duirng the marathon training,

Top class guys seem to just run to 20 miles and then race a 10k , just look at the World record splits.

These are 5k splits with the 10k splits in brackets { } and cumulative times in brackets [ ].
14:44,
14:43 {29:27} [29:27],
14:49 [44:16],
14:54 {29:33} [59:10],
14:55 [1:14:05],
14:51 {29:46} [1:28:56],
14:42 [1:43:38],
14:30 {29:12} [1:58:08],
6:18
Half splits - (1:02:29/1:01:57).

That is some pacing.....

As for setting target times i think a lot of us set times that will mean running at X min mle for 26 miles which is a very very hard thing to do,

Can the body run at one pace for 26 miles? I know there is no way I can do this, I'll need to increase pace at some stage or change stride in order to stop my legs going and to prevent slowing down,

I've only run one marathon before in my other life and made so many mistakes during the training pre race and during the race, what I wouldn't give to go back and give myself a good talking to now....

Also people also put their latest race into some calculator (maybe more of a factor for the 4 hour people including myself) to get a target time, For me this would suggest a 3:30 marathon which is crazy there is no way this is possible. Maybe if I started a 16 week program from today then it would be a target I could aim for. But from what I have ready its the times I was running 4 months ago that i've used as my target pace time.

well jsut my thoughs.. back to work now.

Racing Flat

Pacing and training, inextricably linked...

If you run 3.10 it's because you're not fit enough (due to inadequte training) for 3.00. But the person probably goes out at 3.00 pace, so their pacing was wrong...Had they gone through in 92 rather than 90, perhaps they would have run 3.05 rather than 3.10. But if they couldn't hold 3.00pace they were not fit enough for 3.00, this can surely only be down to not having done the appropriate training, ie the right no. or miles, long runs, speedwork etc.

Amadeus showed that pacing is crucial- by not going with some fellow runners he showed great restraint and confidence, but got the reward he deserved, ie not dying as much as the others.

My fastest km in my best marathon was the 41st, at 3.43 or so, when my average was 4.15 or so. I got the training correct, but nearly f'd up the pacing, went through in high 88s; high 89s or low 90s and I'd have gone much faster, I think.

kennyb3

.

uglyjohn

could it be a combination of heat/dehydration and a slightly higher pace than you were able for?


a slightly high pace at the start can really come back to haunt you.

TFBubendorfer

--amadeus-- wrote: »

The higher mileage P&D plans have LSRs of up to 24 miles in them, anyone tried that and what did you think?

I did before Dublin 06 and had a decent enough race, but I don't think one workout alone will provide the answer. Incidentally, I was planning on running one 24-miler in the present marathon buildup, but I had to cut it short by one mile because I was running slower than planned and ran out of time (I had to get to work afterwards).

Have heard that fast-finish long runs in training can really help with a strong finish. However, I used these quite a lot in training for DCM last year, and still finished poorly (but that was down to bad pacing (chasing down Sungod!) in the middle part of the race than anything else).

I do them on a regular basis, and had a great finish in Cork and a poor one in Dublin.

RJC

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Lax training will get you, no doubt about that. The higher mileage P&D plans have LSRs of up to 24 miles in them, anyone tried that and what did you think?

In my build up I always do a 24 miler. It is good at giving you an insight into the energy low you feel from mile 18-21 in a marathon and you can cope with it. All I would say is that you need to take this run nice and slow (well into the 8:xx/mile) because you'll want to recover from it in a day or two. It should take you into the 3hr+ time zone for a long run - even if you're at 3:00 pace.

--amadeus--

Same old story then from the sounds of it - if you want it you have to train for it. i was hoping for an easier way :P

brutes

More miles you do the easier the last few miles get, have 7/8 marathons done, upping mileage from 35 a week first time to c 85- 90 average 3 mnths pre Dublin last yr.
What id do, and did and will do again!!
Long runs over twenty do at least 6 pre marathon, I went up to 25 miles.
Do a marathon pace run twice, say 15-18 mile, 3 mile warm up then pace run. This is a killer run it with someone better than you to keep you going on the run!
Fast finish is good sometimes for long runs
Tempo runs i found good during week for speed, 6/7 quick in a 10 mile run
Half marathon race one/two
Miles in the bank really help its the key, reckon you need close to 70 a week for sub 3 if you are not very naturally talented and quick - i did that.

brutes

Krusty_Clown

Two marathons, 8 weeks apart. Training was similar (intensity and regularity), and finishing times were similar (second one was around 4-5 mins faster). Didn't do anything new in terms of training, diet etc for the second race. As you can see from the graph, faded badly in the first marathon. Second one, didn't fade at all. Yes my heart rate drifted up, but my last mile was consistent pace with all the rest of them.

The big difference? Pacing.
First marathon, reached the half way point in 1:38.
Second marathon, reached the half way point in 1:44, and still finished 4-5 minutes faster overall. Even stopped for a 2 minute loo break.

Enduro

Pacing pacing pacing pacing... it is that simple.

The difficult bit is knowing the optimal pace to run. In my humble opinion, this is where you have to ditch the HRM and learn how to judge your own pacing on a particular couse over a particular distance on a given day (I think that's the variables covered!). In my experience with ultras, your going to get the best results with either steady even pacing the whole way, or with a negative split. I actually enjoy seeing my rivals going out hard, because I know over the course of the whole race they'll more than likely be relatively easy to beat.

Hard Worker

The most important factor about marathon running is to be fit and healthy on the start line. The healthy part is very important. I used to know exactly how I'd run by taking my resting pulse regularly. When I was at my peak fitness, my resting pulse was 43. If it ever went up to 47 I would know there was something up. That could mean slightly overtrained or a possible sore throat or similar just around the corner.
I've done loads of marathons and they can still be a mystery at times. Some of my better ones were done on 40 miles per week and some poorer ones on 60 miles per week. However, the best ones were done when I was fit and healthy and three of my top four were done with negative splits.

Krusty_Clown

Enduro wrote: »

Pacing pacing pacing pacing... it is that simple.

The difficult bit is knowing the optimal pace to run. In my humble opinion, this is where you have to ditch the HRM and learn how to judge your own pacing on a particular couse over a particular distance on a given day (I think that's the variables covered!). In my experience with ultras, your going to get the best results with either steady even pacing the whole way, or with a negative split. I actually enjoy seeing my rivals going out hard, because I know over the course of the whole race they'll more than likely be relatively easy to beat.

How do you figure out your ideal pace for a 39.3 mile ultra (or greater)? McMillan (who knows all ) doesn't go beyond 26.2!

Enduro

It's a problem for ultras (and even more so for adventure races) that basically the theory runs out! But I use it as an advantage, and work out my own ideas. But I regard it as an advantage, because you can't rely on someone else's theory and you have to work it out yourself, which requires self-knowledge and self-discipline.

It's hard to explain it. I really just do it. I just know myself well enough to know what I should be pacing, and know exactly how hard I should push myself, taking all the variables into account. Learning from experience is the most useful tool with ultras. I probably learned more in my first 24hour run than any other running race I've ever done, and have built on that in subsequent races.

One piece of useful advice out of that is to be relatively cautious at your first race of any long distance, and use the knowledge gained to adjust and push the limits for the second one, and so on.

Woddle

Hard Worker wrote: »

When I was at my peak fitness, my resting pulse was 43. If it ever went up to 47 I would know there was something up. That could mean slightly overtrained or a possible sore throat or similar just around the corner.

A few weeks back my resting heart rate was 44 bpm. On the Friday before Paris I tried to take my RHR when I woke and could not get it under 52 bpm (I put it down to butterflies), I'm now dying with a cold but I don't know whether its a result of running/walking the marathon or was I getting sth.

Hard Worker

Woddle wrote: »

A few weeks back my resting heart rate was 44 bpm. On the Friday before Paris I tried to take my RHR when I woke and could not get it under 52 bpm (I put it down to butterflies), I'm now dying with a cold but I don't know whether its a result of running/walking the marathon or was I getting sth.

I'd say you definitely had something in the system. No way would butterflies account for that rise in resting pulse. It might explain your below expectation run.
Have you decided on your next one yet? Will you do one before Berlin or has sanity prevailed?

Woddle

Wisdom from my peers has prevailed
I'm still not over it but at least I'm laughing about it now aswell (can't believe I missed the eiffel tower) and I'm finally having those post marathon drinks , and cheers for listening to all my dribble