Health and Safety of ES personel

Turner

Was reading on pulse last night in work of various incidents around ireland this week of gardai being carried on bonnets of stolen cars, dragged by open doors of cars reversing ect.

If only people knew what we do.

Rarely does it make the papers.

Trojan911

Chief--- wrote: »

Was reading on pulse last night in work of various incidents around ireland this week of gardai being carried on bonnets of stolen cars, dragged by open doors of cars reversing ect.

If only people knew what we do.

Rarely does it make the papers.

I'm curious, if this is so common, then why is it so common. What training is given to officers on H&S issues regarding the dangers you have highlighted? Basic self preservation is not rocket science.

No doubt some order will be now sent out on officer safety in light of the recent death of Garda McCallion reiterating the dangers of approaching vehicles.

djtechnics1210

Health and Safety training
I know what it is myself from prior to AGS when i received training in it.

But as for when in AGS
What's health and safety?????
I have never received any training in relation to health and safety in work.

djtechnics1210

We should be driving proper police spec cars anyway for a start..... not family saloons

Turner

Trojan911 wrote: »

I'm curious, if this is so common, then why is it so common. What training is given to officers on H&S issues regarding the dangers you have highlighted? Basic self preservation is not rocket science.

No doubt some order will be now sent out on officer safety in light of the recent death of Garda McCallion reiterating the dangers of approaching vehicles.

Happens in the country somewhere every night id say. Some days maybe 5-15 are pursuits logged on pulse. Many in the northern counties which head for the border.

How can you apply health and safety to chasing stolen cars. High speed pursuits sometimes ramming the stolen cars to prevent injury to the public. Smashing windows trying to disable the driver with a baton or remove the keys all the time while he is spinning the wheels and ramming your patrol car or dragging you down the road.

If they were to apply health and safety to our job they would have us sitting in the tv room for the 8 hours and not let us out.

People dont realise how dangerous it is.

And thats only pursuits, not to mention armed fueding gangs, armed drug dealers, people who carry knifes, syringe yielding junkies, traveller fueds, traveller weddings or funerals, gardai entering dangerous flat complexes only in twos.

Health and safety, HAH.

Chief---

Chief--- wrote: »

Happens in the country somewhere every night id say. Some days maybe 5-15 are pursuits logged on pulse. Many in the northern counties which head for the border.

Is there an agreement with the PSNI to stop fleeing cars on the other side of the border?

Or is it the case that once across the border the driver has escaped ??

miceal

Chief--- wrote: »

Was reading on pulse last night in work of various incidents around ireland this week of gardai being carried on bonnets of stolen cars, dragged by open doors of cars reversing ect.

If only people knew what we do.

Rarely does it make the papers.

Too True

There was a case of this in Dundalk recently!

http://www.argus.ie/news/garda-injured-in-car-chase-1703135.html

Again what you said in your next post is true the incident happened about 2 miles from the border

Turner

salonfire wrote: »

Is there an agreement with the PSNI to stop fleeing cars on the other side of the border?

Or is it the case that once across the border the driver has escaped ??

Cant really go into what agreement is there between the gardai and the psni.

But the gardai are not allowed cross the border.

So make up your own mind.

Trojan911

Chief--- wrote: »

Happens in the country somewhere every night id say. Some days maybe 5-15 are pursuits logged on pulse. Many in the northern counties which head for the border.

How can you apply health and safety to chasing stolen cars. High speed pursuits sometimes ramming the stolen cars to prevent injury to the public. Smashing windows trying to disable the driver with a baton or remove the keys all the time while he is spinning the wheels and ramming your patrol car or dragging you down the road.

Is there not a pursuit strategy in place? We managed very well in The Met with our training

If they were to apply health and safety to our job they would have us sitting in the tv room for the 8 hours and not let us out.

No, have to disagree there, H&S, although sometimes a pain in the butt, is there for the protection of everyone.

People dont realise how dangerous it is.

People don't realise how dangerous roof tiling can be, but if you follow simple safety proceedures it makes it much less dangerous.


And thats only pursuits, not to mention armed fueding gangs, armed drug dealers, people who carry knifes, syringe yielding junkies, traveller fueds, traveller weddings or funerals, gardai entering dangerous flat complexes only in twos.

I know, and you can throw in the bombing campaign by PIRA & Andy Copeland (Nail Bomber) and in the eleven years I spent in the Met I only charged three people with assault on police, because we were trained in H&S matters & if it meant letting that stolen car go, then we let it go, again to ensure our safety & that of the general public. I learnt self preservation very quickly.

...

Turner

There is no pursuit training given to gardai.

There are standard and advanced driving courses but unfortunately no pursuit training courses.

TheNog

I think its more approporiate to start this thread rather than continuing it on Garda McCallion's thread.

Trojan911

TheNog wrote: »

I think its more approporiate to start this thread rather than continuing it on Garda McCallion's thread.

Good move, you actually got there before me, (I had to run & do something)......

Dub_Gda

Chief--- wrote: »

Was reading on pulse last night in work of various incidents around ireland this week of gardai being carried on bonnets of stolen cars, dragged by open doors of cars reversing ect.

If only people knew what we do.

Rarely does it make the papers.

I'm working in the Dublin Region and i tell ya this, I can't count on both hands how many times i've had to scramble for my life as cars have driven at me and my work mates, while on checkpoints and on beats. I've had a few of these maneuvers witnessed by members of the public and they cannot believe that this happens.. and some boy racers are the biggest offenders in this case apart from stolen cars......

Whitewater-AGS

There are far to many H&S issues overlooked in AGS, sure last thursday I was the only beat out in my district, we should not be sent out solo esp on nights.

Trojan911

My thoughts are:

Gardai are surely given some basic safety training at Templemore and continuity training on division after, on when & how to approach perps/people.

How to approach stopped vehicles & the dangers etc.

Entering Hazchem buildings or dealing with RTC's involving trucks etc holding Hazchems.

Would a garda be expected to chase a burglar across a flat roof during the day or at night?

It would be irresponsible of the force not to give these training courses.

For example:

I had an occasion to chase three perps one night after they ran from a premises having just committed an agravated burglary. They went over the back garden fences (6ft+ tall) & legged it down neighbouring gardens. I decided not to give chase for three reasons.

1. The scene needed to be preserved.
2. One of the victims shouted "He has a sword".
3. My colleague had circulated them on his PR & the helicopter had been requested.

They were eventually stopped on Hammersmith Bridge by Trojan units after hijacking another car. It turned out this gang were notoriously dangerous & known. They were also in possession of a loaded firearm which was pulled and pointed at a colleague and used to hijack the other car as well as a 2ft sword.

I'm glad I chose not to be the hero & persue them through those gardens.

They got a total of 26yrs between them in the bin for their actions that night.

So, I suppose the moral of the story here is, you do not know what is around the corner in this job. Don't take risks for a lump of metal that can be replaced or the probationer in the Met that chased a burglar across a flat roof one night and fell to his death when he went through it. Self preservation is order of the day.

A Garda is entitled to go home in one peice & alive to his family, a Garda is also entitled to go about their job safe & protected with suitable equipment at their disposal.

Dub_Gda

A Garda is entitled to go home in one peice & alive to his family, a Garda is also entitled to go about their job safe & protected with suitable equipment at their disposal.

Here here .....

Hooch

Chief--- wrote: »

There is no pursuit training given to gardai.

There are standard and advanced driving courses but unfortunately no pursuit training courses.

I know slightly off topic but advanced course is now gone....only perspective instructors do it.

The new course is the response driving course, allowing you to drive 3ltrs. Like the advanced it includes acual blue light driving but to more of a degree. Most if not all on road driving is blue light in marked 3.5 or 3ltr mondeo traffic cars. They also now include pursuit training.

Course is only open to members in unit like RSU, Traffic, ERU, NBCI etc etc

TheNog

When I came out of the college I was amazed there was no training for a simple traffic stop. But sure you just have to walk into any Garda station and see where and how prisoners are taken to. In my station and many others across the country we must bring all prisoners, violent and non violent trhough the back door which is big enough for one person into the public office where members of the public (incl children) can hear the screams and curses of a violent prisoner as well as the M I/C who takes phone calls as well as 999 calls.

Totally unacceptable in my book and all the while the organisation goes on at us to be professional at all times. Why dont they start with proper stations purpose built for policing needs as well as proper cars as well as proper training for driving etc etc

No wonder people think of us as Keystone Cops.

Really pisses me off

Hooch

TheNog wrote: »

Really pisses me off

Everybody nog said pisses!!!!!

Who polices the mods:eek:

TheNog

nice guy always wrote: »

Everybody nog said pisses!!!!!

Who polices the mods:eek:

I do:D

Tango Alpha 51

For what it's worth we get damn all H&S training either:mad:. Scene safe is what we're told to look out for. Like all ES we don't know if a scene is going to be volatile or not till we get there & sometimes it's too late to get out then. Never fails to amaze me how assaults on ambo crews go unreported most of the time & mgt seem to be in never never land & think all is rosy:mad::mad:

Hand held radios that don't work properly, panic buttons which are pratically non existent, no anti stab vests etc

Hooch

buzzman wrote: »

For what it's worth we get damn all H&S training either:mad:. Scene safe is what we're told to look out for. Like all ES we don't know if a scene is going to be volatile or not till we get there & sometimes it's too late to get out then. Never fails to amaze me how assaults on ambo crews go unreported most of the time & mgt seem to be in never never land & think all is rosy:mad::mad:

Scene safe.....BSI....Hello can you hear me:D:D

goldie fish

The only time the public hear about these events is when a member gets seriously injured. The rest of the time the Garda is Claiming Compensation purely to be a burden on the state, in the eyes of the media.
When Garda Compensation claims are reported, why doesn't the press office give a summary of how the member ended up getting injured in the first place? Surely the GSOC would be better occupied trying to see how to make the Gardas Job a safer one, following yet another injury inflicted by a prisoner?

TheNog

goldie fish wrote: »

The only time the public hear about these events is when a member gets seriously injured. The rest of the time the Garda is Claiming Compensation purely to be a burden on the state, in the eyes of the media.
When Garda Compensation claims are reported, why doesn't the press office give a summary of how the member ended up getting injured in the first place? Surely the GSOC would be better occupied trying to see how to make the Gardas Job a safer one, following yet another injury inflicted by a prisoner?

because management prefer to be in a reactive type role rather than looking into problems and sorting them.

take the new semi-rigid handcuffs for instance and how they are so easy to avoid a proper lock. Who ever signed off on these should be shot with balls of their own ****e.


Actually Id like to know who does the test on new equipment or is there even tests carried out?

Hooch

TheNog wrote: »

because management prefer to be in a reactive type role rather than looking into problems and sorting them.

take the new semi-rigid handcuffs for instance and how they are so easy to avoid a proper lock. Who ever signed off on these should be shot with balls of their own ****e.


Actually Id like to know who does the test on new equipment or is there even tests carried out?[/quote]

Either civi's like the one buying fiats and nissan jeeps or members who are behind a desk for the last 20 years.

The pilot scheme for the stab vests was in tallaght and most members votes against them and the same ones were issued!!!:mad:

TheNog

nice guy always wrote: »

Either civi's like the one buying fiats and nissan jeeps or members who are behind a desk for the last 20 years.

The pilot scheme for the stab vests was in tallaght and most members votes against them and the same ones were issued!!!:mad:

Incredible

Zuppy

Trojan911 wrote: »

My thoughts are:

Entering Hazchem buildings or dealing with RTC's involving trucks etc holding Hazchems.

The current thinking is stand back and leave the Fire service deal with it. :-)

H&S can be tedious but lets be honest it does save lives.

Paulzx

Knowledge of health and safety will of course reduce injuries and deaths in the work place. However, the environment in which ES personnel work is completely different to a normal work environment. In a normal workplace the risks can easily be controlled and catergorised. What happens day to to day is predictable and the same risks occur day after day. Any lapses on the part of employer or employees are easily seen.

Working in the ES is completely different. The prospect of unforseen circumstances is a constant. There is absolutely no way i can know when i go into a housefire the circumstances which may present. The important thing to remember is that there must be a concept of what is an acceptable risk as distinct from being reckless. This applies to all ES from Gardai to Ambulance to Coastguard.

You have a duty to serve the public. You also have a duty to come home to your family.

deadwood

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

The current thinking is stand back and leave the Fire service deal with it. :-)

Can we all do that?:D

Zambia

A moving vehicle in the wrong hands is an immediate threat to life, hence all measures of force can be used to stop the threat.

However if you are out there with nothing but an ASP , best you flee.

Whitewater-AGS

nice guy always wrote: »

I know slightly off topic but advanced course is now gone....only perspective instructors do it.

The new course is the response driving course, allowing you to drive 3ltrs. Like the advanced it includes acual blue light driving but to more of a degree. Most if not all on road driving is blue light in marked 3.5 or 3ltr mondeo traffic cars. They also now include pursuit training.

Course is only open to members in unit like RSU, Traffic, ERU, NBCI etc etc

Have just done some study on this topic and there is currently a paper working its way throught management (so dont hold your breath) to reform the entire area of driver training within AGS, which would see a system close to what the likes of kent police currently operate. The pilot course which the rsu are currently doing wouls become your response driver course and the advanced course would be tailored to suit different units e.g traffic would be shown how to preform rolling road blocks ect and eru would be given extra classes on convoy driving and defensive driving and so on, all sounds great but this has been put forward several times already with no change.

daithip

Zambia232 wrote: »

A moving vehicle in the wrong hands is an immediate threat to life, hence all measures of force can be used to stop the threat.

Gardai cannot use all measures of force to stop the threat of a dangerously driven vehicle. You do, you're grounded and writing for months afterwards. And the use of the stinger has to be sanctioned by the rank of inspector and above, that's great, but try looking for one down the country at 4 in the morning, he's more upset that you've woken him:p

timmywex

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Have just done some study on this topic and there is currently a paper working its way throught management (so dont hold your breath) to reform the entire area of driver training within AGS, which would see a system close to what the likes of kent police currently operate. The pilot course which the rsu are currently doing wouls become your response driver course and the advanced course would be tailored to suit different units e.g traffic would be shown how to preform rolling road blocks ect and eru would be given extra classes on convoy driving and defensive driving and so on, all sounds great but this has been put forward several times already with no change.

Hopefully now that recruitment is being scaled back they might decide to use templemiore for this kinda thing!

deadwood

How many times have I heard something like "okay lads, the Health and safety bit. Sign this form so you can't sue me. Ha, ha."

Hard to consider Health and Safety when i'm doing my Usain Bolt (:D) after some ne'er do well armed only with a clip-on tie and a pair of shlacks while trying to pull out a baton that'd make excalibur look like it was lubed.

Hooch

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Have just done some study on this topic and there is currently a paper working its way throught management (so dont hold your breath) to reform the entire area of driver training within AGS, which would see a system close to what the likes of kent police currently operate. The pilot course which the rsu are currently doing wouls become your response driver course and the advanced course would be tailored to suit different units e.g traffic would be shown how to preform rolling road blocks ect and eru would be given extra classes on convoy driving and defensive driving and so on, all sounds great but this has been put forward several times already with no change.

The response driving course is now standard for 3 ltrs.

If were on the same wave lenght that paper follows about 40 that have been submitted over the last couple of years....to no improvement.

New plans include anyone with full licence getting a weeks driving course in Phase 3 to cover a type of inforced chiefs...i.e. no blue light etc.

Back then for a two week course that includes blue lights and stopping vehicles.

Then as you said another course tailored for traffic for rolling road blocks/stops etc.

This wont be the advanced course....this will be kept just for instructors as in theory the instructors should be better than us. They will create another suitably named course....................*leaves space for deadwood to insert comment:D

deadwood

nice guy always wrote: »

Then as you said another course tailored for traffic for rolling road blocks/stops etc.

This wont be the advanced course....this will be kept just for instructors as in theory the instructors should be better than us. They will create another suitably named course....................*leaves space for deadwood to insert comment:D

Yeah. A rolling road block - a ring of steel, if you will. Then some stopping tactics using stinger.

The Ring-Sting Course!