Knowledge of politics = useless?

Mr.Nice Guy

Evening all.

I'm in my final year at UCD doing a degree in history and politics and was wondering if anyone could tell me whether or not this is a combination that could lead to somewhere in teaching? I didn't contemplate a teaching career in my first two years which is a bit of a pity as I could have chosen something better than politics...

I'm wondering if this subject is of any use, say for CSPE studies? Or do you have to know something else? I went to www.pac.ie and it mentions something about needing sociology so I'm a bit perplexed.

Powerhouse

To be honest it's not a suitable teaching combination. History is one of the most common Arts subjects among graduates and there are plenty of teachers and less students choosing it these days. And beware of falling into the trap of thinking that doing a Master's would change that. That is not to say that you couldn't take your chances as a History teacher, but prospects of employment would be slim in that subject as things stand right now.

CSPE seems to be the subject of last resort for many who find that they have managed to get into the PGDE without suitable teaching subjects. So, while yes, politics is a subject which qualifies one to teach CSPE, merely taking the subject as a PGDE methodology subject also does that, so that pretty much means that having studied Politics or indeed Sociology is of no particular advantage. And there is nobody going to get a job in a school purely on their ability to teach CSPE. It's an extra which might provide an extra hour or two for a teacher whose other subject makes the difference for them but will not open doors in itself.

Sorry for the negativity.

pathway33

A university professor last year who is in the know told me that politics / political philosophy will be appearing as a leaving cert subject in the near future. I don't know who you would ask in the department of education about this but the plan has probably been shelved for the time being given the cutbacks.

pathway33

you should look up the oscail BA by distance learning. It's english, history and sociology I think. You should be exempt from the history and then you could teach english too. you could study it while lying on a beach in Rio

sunflower!

They are the subjects I did in college and I completed the PGDE last year with History and CSPE. Just doing the CSPE module as part of the PGDE, doesn't technically qualify you to teach CPSE, according to the teaching council you need to have studied either sociology or politics. When we did the course last year they were telling us about this leaving cert politics course which will eventually come on line, but probably not for a while especially not now that there are so many cut backs! That being said if you don’t mind heading abroad politics is taken more seriously in other countries like the UK, Canada etc there are Politics and Social Studies courses there. By the way although I am working (as a resource teacher in a primary school) at the mo there wasn’t any work going in my subjects last year and I don’t think there will be this year either!! That being said if it’s something you really want to do then I wouldn’t be telling you not to! Teaching is a good qualification to have and in terms of jobs things might eventually get better!! But I wouldn’t go into it expecting to get a job straight away when you come out!! But the same can prob be said about most careers at the moment!:(

Dionysus

Well said, sunflower. Interesting to get some real-world feedback from somebody with the PGDE in History & Politics.

Dionysus

Nice Guy:

I'm in the same boat: history and politics degree from the venerable institution that is Belfield Aerodrome. But I'm in it a lot deeper; I kept digging when I realised I was in a hole and decided to make a doctorate out of one of these pointless subjects. If you even did an arts MA you'd still be a genius compared to at least one person here. Don't waste your years, or your money.

You have at least two sensible options:

1. If you really want to teach, Irish is currently the most in demand subject, and teachers with Irish appear to find a job very quickly. In my case Irish was my 1st year subject, so I'd have to return and do 2 more years to complete the degree. As things now stand, however, I can teach Irish to any year up to Junior Cert, but need the degree to teach to Leaving. Irish and History would be a very good combination jobwise.

2. The cost of the PGDE was €6530 last year. The fee for this coming year is not set but the lady in Fees told me this morning that it will certainly be higher in September. That is a lot of money for doing two subjects where jobs are very elusive (to be mild about it). The PGDE is unquestionably a money-making racket for the universities, particularly in light of the cutbacks.


In contrast, there is a whole raft of courses which are heavily subsidised by the state that fall under the 'Graduate Skills Conversion Programme', which very few people seem to know about. A list of these postgrads can be found here: http://www.postgrad.ie/it_computing/graduate_skills_conversion_programme.html
Your fee will be €2000 for the year and they are subsidised because they are skills shortages and therefore there is much more chance of a job than with history and politics. There is a huge amount of choice with those courses and, very importantly, they are skills that travel across the world a lot further than the reasons for 1798, for instance!

If you want to mix your love for teaching with one of these courses, you could try the 'Graduate Diploma/MSc E-Learning in Education and Training' in DCU, for example. The digital technology industry is still receiving huge invesment from the state with the digital hub in Dublin employing around 2000 people at the moment, and courses such as Msc in Multimedia really becoming more and more important skills for teaching. These jobs are the future and the central reason why we will survive this recession. Indeed, this meshing of teaching, the humanities and computers has now got a name: digital humanities. So, again there are many ways to teach and these technologies are facilitating skills of the future. Additionally as they fall under the 'skills conversion' scheme, they are aimed at people from humanities and arts so are easily doable.


To be honest I'm torn between doing one of these courses or doing the PGDE. Last week I was offered the PGDE in the said aerodrome, but they want me to send €250 as a deposit to accept the course before the 30 April 2009. Teaching will improve, and there will most likely be a sufficient number of teaching jobs abroad as another poster said. However, if I do decide on the PGDE with my degree subjects of Politics & History, it will be with an eye on the posts that come as a result of having a teacher qualification, such as inspector, researcher, subject specialist, examiner, VEC administrator, and even posts teaching in one of the 'European Schools' on the continent. But I think I would be setting myself up for a disappointment if I was doing the PGDE solely to teach two particular subjects for which demand is not very high or neglible.

pathway33

Dionysus wrote: »

In my case Irish was my 1st year subject, so I'd have to return and do 2 more years to complete the degree. As things now stand, however, I can teach Irish to any year up to Junior Cert, but need the degree to teach to Leaving.

No you wouldn't. Irish only has to be 30% of your degree. Apply to the teaching council to teach irish and they will tell you the credits you require. My friend was in the same situation and he only had to do an extra semester of irish. Now he's teaching.

Powerhouse

pathway33 wrote: »

No you wouldn't. Irish only has to be 30% of your degree. Apply to the teaching council to teach irish and they will tell you the credits you require. My friend was in the same situation and he only had to do an extra semester of irish. Now he's teaching.

Not true.

The requirements are quite explicit on this: The study of Irish as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period.

In a two-subject BA, Irish would have to be studied for three years to reach 30 per cent of the credits, unless somebody has an extraordinary credit-gaining arrangement where they can get two years' worth into one semester.

Your friend might have found a situation where a principal is in dire straits but I doubt that he is entitled to register as an Irish teacher.

How on earth anyone would be comfident they'd have the competence in Irish to teach up to honours leaving cert with studying to degree level baffles me, and I say that as an Irish graduate.

As for CSPE, the PAC booklet states about the requirements for teaching:
Applicants must provide officially certified evidence of satisfactory achievement in primary degree and postgraduate studies (or equivalent) as outlined hereunder:
(i) The study of Sociology (or Social Studies or Social Science) extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% of that period, where the syllabus meets the needs of CSPE or (ii) The study of Politics (or Political Studies or Political Science) extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% of that period, where the syllabus meets the needs of CSPE
Details of degree course content to show that the knowledge and understanding required to teach to the highest level in post-primary education has been acquired
The Higher Diploma in CSPE or (i) The Higher Diploma in Curriculum Studies (CSPE) or
(ii) The Higher Diploma in Education (H.Dip.Ed) with a CSPE elective (or methodology course in the teaching of CSPE
Explicit details of standards achieved in all aspects of the degree course in sociological or political studies and of the post-graduate studies in CSPE
Additional information (i) where greater clarity is requested or (ii) which would otherwise more fully support the application must be provided as required.

Now maybe I am reading this incorrectly and the taking of the subject as a methodology is an extra requirement n top of arelevant degree but taking a subject as a methodology it is not an extra requirement for other subjects which is strange if it is the case with CSPE.

pathway33

Powerhouse wrote: »

Your friend might have found a situation where a principal is in dire straits but I doubt that he is entitled to register as an Irish teacher.

He is fully registered with the teaching council. Admittedly he received this advice on what credits to do (they were at level 2 and 3) 2 years ago so the rules may have changed since then but he still had to apply to the teaching council. He received his recognition last august. He did study irish up to 3rd year of an honours degree just not all the modules that you need for a degree. To the OP you have nothing to lose by checking it out. Don't take our word for it.

Powerhouse

pathway33 wrote: »

He is fully registered with the teaching council. Admittedly he received this advice on what credits to do (they were at level 2 and 3) 2 years ago so the rules may have changed since then but he still had to apply to the teaching council. He received his recognition last august. He did study irish up to 3rd year of an honours degree just not all the modules that you need for a degree. To the OP you have nothing to lose by checking it out. Don't take our word for it.

If this guy is a registered teacher of Irish then he either has contacts in the Teaching Council or else the rules, in fact, mean nothing. This is not a just a question of 30% of the degree, (which is there to deal with non-traditional two-subject BA degrees) but it is clearly stated that the subject must be taken as a major subject in the degree, which in the case of Irish means that it is the major in a major/minor arrangement, a joint major or else a one-subject major BA.

It is one thing for a principal to turn a blind eye but quite another for the Teaching Council to flout its own rules.

It is also worrying for the standards of Irish that half-baked students of the subject are getting into clasrooms - there's enough of these mcirowave people in Primary classrooms already. People should have to complete the proper levels of oral and written Irish with the periods in the Gaeltacht included before being let loose in a classroom, rather than just cherry-pciking modules to reach a certain percentage.

But just out of curiosity how did your friend get around the requirement to have the full number of subject credits to go to from level 2 to level 3 of the Irish BA if he took only certain modules at level 2?

pathway33

Powerhouse wrote: »

But just out of curiosity how did your friend get around the requirement to have the full number of subject credits to go to from level 2 to level 3 of the Irish BA if he took only certain modules at level 2?

Yes for the level 3 modules there were prerequisites at level 2 which he did not complete. The lecturers for the level 3 subjects (i believe he took 10 credits at level 3) told him that if he could satisfy them through prior reading and an informal face-to-face examination that he was capable of taking the level 3 modules then they would admit him.

See he was not part of the normal degree in Irish. He was listed as an occasional student and once you have a degree already I suppose there are shortcuts that you can take. Maybe the fact that the lecturers admitted him so easily (although he did study the level 2 modules for which he was not formally examined pretty hard) is a flaw in the system but he can only go by the way the rules are interpreted.

Just to be clear he did satisfy the 30% rule. A 3 year degree is 180 credits
so 30% is 54 credits. He had 55, 30 of which were done as an occasional student after his first degree.

Maybe the teaching council go by 30% since the word 'major' is open to interpretation. I suppose after the 30% has been satisfied every case is individual. I'm not saying it's right, just that it happened. All options should be considered by the OP. That's my main point. The killer is the Teaching Council won't tell you the credits you need until you send them the €200. I don't suppose it's possible that the Teaching Council are happy to register people on the borderline just to collect €90 a year :rolleyes: .

OP Do not think you can wander off and do any level 2 and 3 credits you like in your subject. You have to do the right ones. That's all from me

Powerhouse

pathway33 wrote: »

Maybe the teaching council go by 30% since the word 'major' is open to interpretation.

I'd have thought that in the context of a BA degree the word 'major' is fairly clear. It's the subject written on your degree transcript. And a subject studied to degree level (as per the stated requirements of the teaching council) in that context requires 60 credits. So there is an anomaly.

The 30% rule is there to deal with degrees such as the B.Comm or Science degrees which might vary in content and the level of a subject studied would need to be determined.

Still, he met the requirement so fair play. Compared to some genuises who have studied for Phds in meaningless subjects, think the world owes them a living as a result while the best they can actually do is be the most highly qualified waffler in the TEFL trainee group, and now purport to advise the rest of the world on how not to waste their time, he's fairly on the ball.