building energy rating

capal ban

Hi all,

Iv spent a fortune training to be a b.e.r assessor and Im getting very little work. can I ask you all, what is your view on the whole ber package.

cb

djpbarry

capal ban wrote: »

can I ask you all, what is your view on the whole ber package.

What's yours?

robtri

djpbarry wrote: »

What's yours?

great answer... really helping the chap out :rolleyes:

IMO, I think the ber assessor is a good thing when you are buying a house, it will help you choose a cheaper to run house over a period of time, something more energy efficient... but as housing sales have slowed dramatically I think it will be quiet for you for a while....

besides that, I don't think many people will have an interest in it... money is tight now, so people won't be spending as much money on energy efficiencies upgrades to the house...

djpbarry

robtri wrote: »

great answer... really helping the chap out :rolleyes:

The OP should provide their own opinion on the subject before seeking the opinion of others.

capal ban

thanks guys

its great to get your views, my view on the whole ber slant is that the whole thing is going to be of huge benifit to housholders in general, people are now being educated in areas that where alien to them in the past.
I know many people see the ber as another form of taxation thats the reason I was looking for other opinions on the issue, but the fact is any one that gets a ber cert and a list of recomendations can and will save money over a period of time as long as they act on those recomendations.


cb

Kristopherus

Well my view on it is that its another of those politicol crackpot ideas that will impose a flood of ber assessor on the house-buying/selling public who will hit them with inflated fees for doing what any surveyor should be able to do in his initial assessment of a house. And also full of ridiculous regulations by SEI, just to beef up what is essentially a simple job.

capal ban

well in a way your right a person selling their home is dealing with enough crap, but to avoid this crap the ber should be funded by the selling agent, you should know that a if a person is getting the ber with a view to improving their homes efficiancy there is a grant of €200 available, and as I myself charge only €250 (for up to 6-7 hours work on a typical dwelling) your argument about inflated fees hold little water. How much does it cost to get a boiler serviced or an extra socket put in?

cb

Cheeble

Yes, but getting a boiler serviced will save me money, getting a BER certificate won't.

I already know that the insulation isn't good enough, and I could use some draughtproofing, and that my 14 year old boiler isn't the most efficient, but the law now says I have to pay somebody to tell me this, leaving me €250 short of the funds I need to get the real work done.

There are some instances where getting a BER will add value, but there are an awful lot of instances when it won't.

As for the grant, that just means that any taxpayer is paying for everybody else's BER as well, plus the overhead of SEI processing the applications.

If it was voluntary, not statutory, the assessors would need to justify that the service adds value in each case. You could then charge more, because you would have shown that there was a real financial return on the investment.

Cheeble-eers.

ZYX

Cheeble wrote: »

Yes, but getting a boiler serviced will save me money, getting a BER certificate won't.

I already know that the insulation isn't good enough, and I could use some draughtproofing, and that my 14 year old boiler isn't the most efficient, but the law now says I have to pay somebody to tell me this, leaving me €250 short of the funds I need to get the real work done.


Cheeble-eers.

But if you were going to sell or rent your house, you would improve the insulation and draughtproofing at least. This would be very cheap to do and would improve the BER rating. Without the BER you probably wouldn't do a thing to your property (or else you would have done it already)

baldieman

djpbarry wrote: »

The OP should provide their own opinion on the subject before seeking the opinion of others.

It seemed pretty clear to me, he has spent a considerable amount of money on training courses etc... where the only money being made is by the training providers.

holdfast

Yea the only one that made money was your man from chevron, if you take his word for training 8 out of 10 assessors thats around 5000 people. Not a bad few pound considering.

gizmo555

holdfast wrote: »

Yea the only one that made money was your man from chevron, if you take his word for training 8 out of 10 assessors thats around 5000 people. Not a bad few pound considering.

Isn't it always the way . . . as the old cliché goes, the ones who got rich in the California gold rush weren't the miners, but the people who sold them the shovels and picks.

Cheeble

ZYX wrote: »

But if you were going to sell or rent your house, you would improve the insulation and draughtproofing at least. This would be very cheap to do and would improve the BER rating. Without the BER you probably wouldn't do a thing to your property (or else you would have done it already)

It's plausible (though I'd be more likely to do the kitchen or bathroom first). Is there any evidence that this is happening? e.g. sellers getting two BERs done, the second being better than the first? Does it cost around €500 in assessments to do this, or are assessors offering the re-assessment at a reduced rate?

Cheeble-eers

bladespin

Waste of time, SEI trying to create employment in a botched way.

Too many assesors, too many conflicting ratings being handed out, complete mess.

Macha

bladespin wrote: »

Waste of time, SEI trying to create employment in a botched way.

Too many assesors, too many conflicting ratings being handed out, complete mess.

It's not about creating employment, it's about fulfilling Ireland's obligations under the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive. If employment results, so be it.

If there are too many assessors, the market will sort them out. It's the same argument the taxi drivers use. So will we have limited numbers of accountants and waiters as well to ensure they all get higher wages?

And where is proof that conflicting ratings are being handed out? Every single assessor is going to be audited by the end of the year.

CJhaughey

It is a flawed system IMHO.
The whole way it is assessed is based on using construction data supplied by the builder.
Assessor looks at plans and sees that 50mm aeroboard is specified.
50mm aeroboard may be in the wall cavity with numerous holes and gaps where mortar had fallen on top of the T+G rendering it useless.
House will still be rated on the fact that 50mm aeroboard has been specced.
The system is geared against any form of electricity being used, as against other forms of heating.
For instance if you have a simple immersion heater instead of a flash wood pellet boiler costing 100's of times more you will be downrated.
The whole thing is a scam.

Shiny

CJhaughey wrote: »

The whole thing is a scam.

Absolutely. Talking to my cousin who has done the training says he
might as well have got the money and burnt it.

There are too many accessors trained, few houses being sold and even
fewer being built anymore.

Its not something that can be done full time due to this.

Macha

Shiny wrote: »

Absolutely. Talking to my cousin who has done the training says he
might as well have got the money and burnt it.

There are too many accessors trained, few houses being sold and even
fewer being built anymore.

Its not something that can be done full time due to this.

Why is it a scam? Nobody made your cousin do the training. It's a simple case of supply and demand in the employment market. Or do BER assessors now think their numbers should be limited and what would people then say about the increased prices of BERs?

Shiny

taconnol wrote: »

Why is it a scam? Nobody made your cousin do the training. It's a simple case of supply and demand in the employment market. Or do BER assessors now think their numbers should be limited and what would people then say about the increased prices of BERs?

It is pretty similar to the taxi plate situation.(As you pointed out) The numbers should have
been limited to a suitable number. I don't think prices should be increased
as a result of this, just a happy medium found. ie have an assessor carrying out 5
assessments per week as opposed to 5 assessors carrying out 1 per week.

My cousin could simply have been informed that sufficient numbers have
already been trained, hence don't waste 2 grand. My conclusion is that they
are pretty much scamming every person who is trained and is not needed.

Macha

Shiny wrote: »

It is pretty similar to the taxi plate situation.(As you pointed out) The numbers should have
been limited to a suitable number. I don't think prices should be increased
as a result of this, just a happy medium found. ie have an assessor carrying out 5
assessments per week as opposed to 5 assessors carrying out 1 per week.

So should receptionists, waiters and accountants all benefit from this limiting of numbers and subsequent increase in the cost of their services? I don't see what's so special about taxi drivers and BER asseors.

Shiny wrote: »

My cousin could simply have been informed that sufficient numbers have
already been trained, hence don't waste 2 grand. My conclusion is that they
are pretty much scamming every person who is trained and is not needed.

Your cousin is an adult. He should have done what I did and ring up SEI, find out how many people had already been trained and registered, factored in the thousands of unemployed construction workers and figured out that it was a waste of money.

If you think that SEI is scamming people, you need to pay a visit to Kings Inn's and Blackhall Place. It's on a whole different level.

robtri

Shiny wrote: »

It is pretty similar to the taxi plate situation.(As you pointed out) The numbers should have
been limited to a suitable number. I don't think prices should be increased
as a result of this, just a happy medium found. ie have an assessor carrying out 5
assessments per week as opposed to 5 assessors carrying out 1 per week.

My cousin could simply have been informed that sufficient numbers have
already been trained, hence don't waste 2 grand. My conclusion is that they
are pretty much scamming every person who is trained and is not needed.

taconnol wrote: »

So should receptionists, waiters and accountants all benefit from this limiting of numbers and subsequent increase in the cost of their services? I don't see what's so special about taxi drivers and BER asseors.


Your cousin is an adult. He should have done what I did and ring up SEI, find out how many people had already been trained and registered, factored in the thousands of unemployed construction workers and figured out that it was a waste of money.

If you think that SEI is scamming people, you need to pay a visit to Kings Inn's and Blackhall Place. It's on a whole different level.

have to wholeheartly agree with taconnol here....
no one is being scammed....
Shiny does that mean that every college is scamming people, as there are not enough jobs out there for all the people they are training....
and it costs a hell of a lot more than 2K to go to collegue for 4 years...

Maxster

I trained as BER assesor also & it certainly does not pay. I'm hoping to recover my costs at least and after that I'd put it down to a lesson in not to trust government schemes, eg Eircom shares. I think the scheme is a very good idea but the Dept of Environment and SEI have not administered it adequately. Adverts on radio are not sufficient to enforce the regulations. I am an consultant engineer also nothing to do with BER and I have noticed that SEI only set up schemes and do not admintrate them after eg fiasco with wood pellet boilers, heat pumps etc where the asked for equipment to meet general standards and then let every cowboy in Ireland ride the system.

The system is essentially corrupt in that auctioneers and retailers of equipment have been able to provide BER certs.The original action plan in 2006 indicated that only professionals with some building knowledge would be accepted as assessors but the training providers and SEI did not follow the action plan hence there are wildly varying assessment reults.

Teh number of assessors nationally was based upon 50,000 house being constructed nationally each year and that is a reasonable estimate based on previous 10 years construction figures but the problem is that the last ten years were during a boom/catch up period. Essentially the populaiton has not increased in line with house construction so the 50,000 is most likely far too high. The assessor number s is also based on exerience in countries that already had BER system. They estimated that they need 500 assesors active and 1000 trained. Presently there are over 2500 registered (I would consider active), 6500 trained. What happened to adminitration?

Basically putting in laymans terms (my own), I hate getting NCT on my car done. I appreciate the reults. I think it is a revenue for the government but personnaly is also good value. Dito on BER. The argument that BER doesn;t have value is understandable but as an independent fair minded BER assesor/engineer its well worth it to home owners. Its ok to say you know where the heat loss is but how serious is it, eg crossing a stream, I know its there, I know I'll get wet but how deep is it.

A cert takes about 5-6 hours, €250/6=€42 per hour. Less tax, = €20 per hour workng partime paying higher tax rate now 52%. To many assessors to go full time at BER. Now reduce say €10 per hour to pay off computer, training, registration, printing, driving expenses, photography (payback about four years to break even) that leaves you about €10 in your own pocket. Fairly close to minimum wage. I've read all the stories about people losing their job and doing better on the dole also.

Macha

Maxster wrote: »

I trained as BER assesor also & it certainly does not pay. I'm hoping to recover my costs at least and after that I'd put it down to a lesson in not to trust government schemes, eg Eircom shares.

As has already been stated, the function of the exercise is not primarily for you to make a living out of it.

Maxster wrote: »

I think the scheme is a very good idea but the Dept of Environment and SEI have not administered it adequately. Adverts on radio are not sufficient to enforce the regulations.

It is not under SEI's remit to enforce the BERs - that is the DoE. SEI are obliged to ensure the quality of the BERs and assessors not whether they are done or not. However, there are strong fines for failure to comply:
http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Administration_for_BER_Assessors/Offences/

Maxster wrote: »

I am an consultant engineer also nothing to do with BER and I have noticed that SEI only set up schemes and do not admintrate them after eg fiasco with wood pellet boilers, heat pumps etc where the asked for equipment to meet general standards and then let every cowboy in Ireland ride the system.

SEI have guidelines for suppliers registration that have to be, and are being met. FOr example, only gas boiler fitters that are registered with Bord Gais can be registered with SEI.

Maxster wrote: »

The system is essentially corrupt in that auctioneers and retailers of equipment have been able to provide BER certs.

How is this corrupt? There is a strong code of conduct at this link:

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/BER_Assessor_Registration/BER_Assessor%E2%80%99s_Code_of_Conduct/

Maxster wrote: »

The original action plan in 2006 indicated that only professionals with some building knowledge would be accepted as assessors but the training providers and SEI did not follow the action plan hence there are wildly varying assessment reults.

It was the fault of outsourced training providers like Chevron that didn't enforce minimum qualifications. There is also a Training complaints procedure in place.

Maxster wrote: »

Teh number of assessors nationally was based upon 50,000 house being constructed nationally each year and that is a reasonable estimate based on previous 10 years construction figures but the problem is that the last ten years were during a boom/catch up period. Essentially the populaiton has not increased in line with house construction so the 50,000 is most likely far too high. The assessor number s is also based on exerience in countries that already had BER system. They estimated that they need 500 assesors active and 1000 trained. Presently there are over 2500 registered (I would consider active), 6500 trained. What happened to adminitration?

What do you mean the number of assessors? There is no limit, and never has been any limit to the amount of qualified or registered assessors. Estimated requirements are no guarantees. It's not SEI's fault the housing bubble collapsed when it did.

I'm sorry for people who did the BER course and can't get work in the same way I'm sorry for anyone who trained in any field and now cannot get work. I don't see what's so special about BER assessors.

Maxster

taconnol wrote: »

As has already been stated, the function of the exercise is not primarily for you to make a living out of it.

SEI should not have set up BER scheme as commercial entity so. SEI should have caried out BER directly with house owner (customer). They opened scheme up to pivate sector (much the same as DoH & P/P hospitals) so they could get enough BER done. If they were not going to ensure a fair & equitable marketplace they shoudl withdraw the scheme and refund assessors. A much better way of running BER would have been for SEI to employ/contract enough assessors directly to carry out work for them. That way house owners could apply for BER assessor through SEI and not the BER Cert.It would have banned BER advertising completely and all assessors through out the country working directly for SEI & no contact with customers. SEI would have has complete control & far superior quality standards. they must have known that at the time.

It is not under SEI's remit to enforce the BERs - that is the DoE. SEI are obliged to ensure the quality of the BERs and assessors not whether they are done or not. However, there are strong fines for failure to comply:
http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Administration_for_BER_Assessors/Offences/

There is a historical problem with enforcing Building Regulations in Ireland its true. I think that it is irresponsible to set up a BER scheme and walk away from enforcing it. If they can write the rules but not enforce them why did they write them in the first place. The same analogy could be taken to the rules of the road. There is too much passing the buck between the DoE and SEI.

SEI have guidelines for suppliers registration that have to be, and are being met. FOr example, only gas boiler fitters that are registered with Bord Gais can be registered with SEI.

Sure guidelines are not enforceable. Everybody knows that. They are written as general advice, regulation/legislation is the key. Theres no point going softly softly, its only adds confusion and leaves the door open to cowboys.


How is this corrupt? There is a strong code of conduct at this link:

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/BER_Assessor_Registration/BER_Assessor%E2%80%99s_Code_of_Conduct/

The code of conduct has already been altered since its publication to accomodate auctioneers. The code of conduct is blatently being broken throughout the country but who's enforcing it.... I know that for a fact.

It was the fault of outsourced training providers like Chevron that didn't enforce minimum qualifications. There is also a Training complaints procedure in place.

Yes it is the fault of the training providers but if youwent to court on it the liability would most likely fall 50/50 with SEI. They can always turn down an assesors registration even if they pass the exam.

What do you mean the number of assessors? There is no limit, and never has been any limit to the amount of qualified or registered assessors. Estimated requirements are no guarantees. It's not SEI's fault the housing bubble collapsed when it did.

thats the problem, theres no limits, no enforcement, no accountablility. I'm saying they made educated estimates in 2006 on the number of assessors and then just ignored them. Why did the keep accepting assessor registration in 2008 when the housing market was collapsing and they already had their quota of assessors.

I'm sorry for people who did the BER course and can't get work in the same way I'm sorry for anyone who trained in any field and now cannot get work. I don't see what's so special about BER assessors.

I suppose assessors are so annoyed because it was a large investment initially and their trust in SEI/DoEnv to administer the scheme has failed.I was at a conference recently & the general mood of the construction business is amasement at SEI on their administration policy on a wide range of issues. I'm not talking about assessors but established proffessors, business managers, engineers, entrepeneurs.

To get back to the original message, what do people think of the BER scheme? I'd say I know how it works in theory but how does it work in practise. Does anybody know is it going to survive or colapse due to lack of administration. Its all only an opinion.

bladespin

taconnol wrote: »

It's not about creating employment, it's about fulfilling Ireland's obligations under the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive. If employment results, so be it.

If there are too many assessors, the market will sort them out. It's the same argument the taxi drivers use. So will we have limited numbers of accountants and waiters as well to ensure they all get higher wages?

And where is proof that conflicting ratings are being handed out? Every single assessor is going to be audited by the end of the year.

Easy there fella, your rating is plunging as you type, conserve a little energy. :P

The way the BER has been introduced is terrible, anyone can be an assessor and as the jobs market has declined more and more have taken it up to subsidise their earnings, it was sold as this to possible surveyors, it should have been indtoduced as an inspection carried out by a SEI licensed surveyor (think NCT for houses)but instead anyone can have a go and charge what they like, this is ok in a free market but you can't introduce a law and leave the general public open to such pariah like behaviour.

There have been many conflicting reports issued or maybe you missed the SEI being grilled over it on the last word radio show, a national paper (cant remember which) had the same house surveyed by servear assessors the results were shocking, price varied hugely as did the results. Auditing results is all well and good but that doesn't really help someone who's lost on the sale of a house through an assessor's miscalculation, wonder if the SEI would reimburse their loss?

Saabdub

I was scanning houses for sale in my area on a number of property websites and was looking for BER information, but it wasn't provided. I would have thought the BER would be as important as the landscaping or the nearby race tracks?

Pembily

This is quite an interesting topic!!! I know a good few people who are quite annoyed that they spent close to 3k to get a BER qualification... It should have been organised and adminstered better by SEI and the DOE but it's a government fix!! There shouldn't be a limit to the number of people allowed to do the course, people should go out and do the research before spending 3k!!! If you buy a car you take it for a test drive, so why did so many people see BER and see €€€€€€, it was stupid!!

I am going into the energy stream in 4th year mechanical engineering and i have done alot of research to see that the market is not saturated in this area, and it only costs me 2k to go to college!!!!

RESEARCH is the key...

Maxster

Pembily wrote: »

This is quite an interesting topic!!! I know a good few people who are quite annoyed that they spent close to 3k to get a BER qualification... It should have been organised and adminstered better by SEI and the DOE but it's a government fix!! There shouldn't be a limit to the number of people allowed to do the course, people should go out and do the research before spending 3k!!! If you buy a car you take it for a test drive, so why did so many people see BER and see €€€€€€, it was stupid!!

I am going into the energy stream in 4th year mechanical engineering and i have done alot of research to see that the market is not saturated in this area, and it only costs me 2k to go to college!!!!

RESEARCH is the key...

I did the research in 2006, was very hesitant to go into BER but made a call on it & went for part time operation. Who was to know in 2006 that the SEI & DoEnv would over saturate the market going forward, as the politicians would say. Good luck with Energy stream. I'm sort of the old mech eng who picked up the energy side of the business as I went along but the environmental sector really seem to be picking up the batton.Keep that in mind maybe as you go along, energy is being picked up by environmental companies in Ireland.

Macha

Maxster wrote: »

I suppose assessors are so annoyed because it was a large investment initially and their trust in SEI/DoEnv to administer the scheme has failed.I was at a conference recently & the general mood of the construction business is amasement at SEI on their administration policy on a wide range of issues. I'm not talking about assessors but established proffessors, business managers, engineers, entrepeneurs.

How has the administration of the scheme failed?

Maxster wrote: »

To get back to the original message, what do people think of the BER scheme? I'd say I know how it works in theory but how does it work in practise. Does anybody know is it going to survive or colapse due to lack of administration. Its all only an opinion.

It is part of Ireland's obligations under the EPBD. It is not an option to let it collapse. How is there a lack of administration?

bladespin wrote: »

Easy there fella, your rating is plunging as you type, conserve a little energy. :P

I'm female

Maxster wrote: »

The way the BER has been introduced is terrible, anyone can be an assessor and as the jobs market has declined more and more have taken it up to subsidise their earnings, it was sold as this to possible surveyors, it should have been indtoduced as an inspection carried out by a SEI licensed surveyor (think NCT for houses)but instead anyone can have a go and charge what they like, this is ok in a free market but you can't introduce a law and leave the general public open to such pariah like behaviour.

Er...BER assessors are SEI licensed and I don't see why it should have been limited to surveyors. It is not the case that anyone can have a go. The individuals have to have knowledge of how to use a computer and a qualification in construction. What pariah-like behaviour?

Maxster wrote: »

There have been many conflicting reports issued or maybe you missed the SEI being grilled over it on the last word radio show, a national paper (cant remember which) had the same house surveyed by servear assessors the results were shocking, price varied hugely as did the results. Auditing results is all well and good but that doesn't really help someone who's lost on the sale of a house through an assessor's miscalculation, wonder if the SEI would reimburse their loss?

Of course prices are going to vary: it's a free market. It's up the consumer to do their homework and get a good deal.

As for variations in the results, SEI will have carried out an audit on every single assessor by the end of 2009. Those that are guilty of offences (including erroneous BER ratings) are struck off and a number of assessors already have been. Im not sure what else you would have them do.

Saabdub wrote: »

I was scanning houses for sale in my area on a number of property websites and was looking for BER information, but it wasn't provided. I would have thought the BER would be as important as the landscaping or the nearby race tracks?

There is a push for this to happen now, as is discussed in an excellent article in this month's Construct Ireland (not available online yet).

Maxster wrote: »

I did the research in 2006, was very hesitant to go into BER but made a call on it & went for part time operation. Who was to know in 2006 that the SEI & DoEnv would over saturate the market going forward, as the politicians would say.

How did SEI & DoE "over saturate" the market? They didn't force anyone to become a BER assessor.

Pembily

Maxster wrote: »

I did the research in 2006, was very hesitant to go into BER but made a call on it & went for part time operation. Who was to know in 2006 that the SEI & DoEnv would over saturate the market going forward, as the politicians would say. Good luck with Energy stream. I'm sort of the old mech eng who picked up the energy side of the business as I went along but the environmental sector really seem to be picking up the batton.Keep that in mind maybe as you go along, energy is being picked up by environmental companies in Ireland.

For you I feel sorry!!! In 2006 it was never heard of, every one had lots of money and didnt care about being energy aware etc, and SEI and DoE didnt know that every tom, dick and harry who lost their job would go and do a BER!!! There is an environmental masters being offered in GMIT and will do it unless I get a job!!! Seemingly should get a job when i graduate next May!!!

Thanks!!

Graham1979

I know u send the ur findings off and the results come back but do u think it would be posable to get an a rating ber result wit 80mm king span ridged board insulation in floor , 100mm beads in wall cavity followed by 80mm insulated plaster board , block work internally and external plastered sand n cement , rafters all sprayed 175mm , windows 1.2 u value no vents ,lights all led and Eletric solar Pannel's , heating tap water solar Pannel's , heating house solid fuel stove have buffer tank and cylinder oil is back up , heat recovery unit no open vents , just waiting to get air tightness test done tks

djpbarry

Please don't drag up threads that are over five years old.

And please don't use "text speak".