Urgent Advice needed.

Deliverance

A friend of mine who I would consider vulnerable, has two beautiful daughters from a failed marriage to a Saudi man. He left when the children were very young and took off with 30,000 pounds of her money to pursue a lucrative career as a pilot. Prior to the break up of the marriage he had a bit of sport with his friends by pursuing younger 'girls' and chatting them up etc.

He has had little to no contact with his daughters for the last 10-12yrs and has sent v.little financial help in this time.

The above is an indication to me of the 'mans' character. What is worrying me at the moment is his current sudden interest in his daughters both of whom are an integral part of a typical Irish family unit, grandmother aunts uncles etc. All are v. close and have played a v.loving and caring role in bringing up the kids in support of the single Mam involved, myself included.

Recently the absent 'Father' (who is now living back in Saudi) has sent a large amount of money to the mother of these kids and she has accepted and spent it on stuff for the house and the kids. She felt guilty about spending the money and got over emotional and guilty about it (like I said she is vulnerable and not exactly worldly wise).

The latest worrying development is... the Father now wants to suddenly take the children to England on some kind of trip (supposedly to get to know them) and the mother has agreed to this. She asked for advice from family members and everyone was against it. This led her to have a bit of a meltdown and shut those advising her against 'this trip to get to know Dad' out of her home.

That is the story which is developing.

Now my personal opinion of this situation is that... this fellow has after several yrs of v.little contact, thrown in a sweetener of cash to throw the Mother off his potential 'agenda'.

When I think about it... he is suddenly taking the kids *plus passports* to a close country i.e. England. From there he is in a position to take them back to Saudi and they may never be seen again. He is also a qualified pilot so that makes things a little more complicated since he is taking the kids to Sheffield which has a small airport, I've done some research and so far it looks like this airport has a route to Saudi.

In my opinion he should have limited supervised local access only untill some kind of trust is gained but the Mother like I said is vulnerable, and I believe that she still loves him etc.

Sorry about the long post but I don't feel that I could ask for feedback and advice without painting as close a picture of this complicated situation as possible.

Any advice, experience in any way from a personal, common sense, legal, cultural view etc will be helpful. How to deal with the mother, how to deal with this absent father. Mostly though I think I need to find a way to reach the mother with some kind of solid advice.

Any help on this is much appreciated. This is very much a parenting issue albeit a complicated one so I would also appreciate it if it was taken as such.

Any advice appreciated, and once again apoligies for the length of post. Thankyou.

Dfens

Has he perhaps organised arranged marriages for the girls?
Just my first thought.....as a parent myself, if I was their Mum I definitely wouldn't be allowing this trip to go ahead as my initial gut feeling after reading your post is that she may never see her girls again. I'm especially worried if their passports are going wtih them.... Why can't he 'get to know them' here in Ireland under supervised access - afterall would she hand her kids over to a virtual stranger ?
What ages are the girls, is there any legal reason that she can use to object to this trip? Is there anyone outside of the family that she trusts and would listen to - solicitor, GP, clergy, teacher, other parents etc ?
Maybe you could watch a film together such as 'Not without my children' or leave a similar book/personal story lying around her house, so she could get an insight of the cultural differences that can exist.

Read this link

Zynks

There is obviously a very high risk involved in this situation. If the mother is in denial about it, then maybe social services should be alerted for the sake of the girls.

MonicaBing

Jesus, thats quite a post. As was previously stated can you get a priest or someone she would trust to speak to her? I can see this getting very nasty and quickly too. The girls are at the perfect age for arranged marriages and ive just finished reading a book called Sold: a story of modern day slavery by Zana Muhsen. It was horrific reading. I dont want to upset you un-necessarily but the quicker the mum knows some facts about her ex's country of origin and their customs, the better.

Well done for looking for help but try looking up Amnesty Ireland maybe?
I wish you the best of luck, keep us posted please.

Deliverance

Dfens wrote: »

Has he perhaps organised arranged marriages for the girls?
Just my first thought.....as a parent myself, if I was their Mum I definitely wouldn't be allowing this trip to go ahead as my initial gut feeling after reading your post is that she may never see her girls again. I'm especially worried if their passports are going wtih them.... Why can't he 'get to know them' here in Ireland under supervised access - afterall would she hand her kids over to a virtual stranger ?
What ages are the girls, is there any legal reason that she can use to object to this trip? Is there anyone outside of the family that she trusts and would listen to - solicitor, GP, clergy, teacher, other parents etc ?
Maybe you could watch a film together such as 'Not without my children' or leave a similar book/personal story lying around her house, so she could get an insight of the cultural differences that can exist.

Read this link

Thanks for the reply. That is my gut feeling as well, the girls are 13-15. I was specific about actual events as I did not want to sound biased. I am very concerned at the moment as to me he is a dubious character by his nature for a start. I do not have experience in the Saudi culture but from what little I know, I feel concerned. Arranged marriages? Has he some kind of financial benefit from this by taking them?

There are every legal reason that this mother can dispute this trip but she, in my view at least... is so naive that she will let it go ahead because I suspect that she is still in love with him and as such trusts him. This leads me to believe that he is still using her naievity to the extent that he wants to manipulate her with this trust into taking these girls away.

I think this woman needs a reality check to put it bluntly. Maybe some kind of culture shock treatment? I don't know how to do this. But two little girls lives in my view are in her hands and so far she is not listening to common sense for a start!

I really hope that this is not the classic cultural kidnap case but it is looking more and more like it could possibly be. Please people advise more here to help me on this issue through your valued advice.

I think at this stage the advice should be aimed at prevention of this 'Father' taking these girls by some kind of intervention towards the over trusting mother. I'm not sure how to do this.

Again I so much appreciate any help on this, the importance is understated. Thanks so much for any replies.

Deliverance

Zynks wrote: »

There is obviously a very high risk involved in this situation. If the mother is in denial about it, then maybe social services should be alerted for the sake of the girls.

Good point, I never actually thought about that. It is definately an option as such, I will pursue and recommend that to the immediate family as a last resort.Thanks.

Deliverance

MonicaBing wrote: »

Jesus, thats quite a post. As was previously stated can you get a priest or someone she would trust to speak to her? I can see this getting very nasty and quickly too. The girls are at the perfect age for arranged marriages and ive just finished reading a book called Sold: a story of modern day slavery by Zana Muhsen. It was horrific reading. I dont want to upset you un-necessarily but the quicker the mum knows some facts about her ex's country of origin and their customs, the better.

Well done for looking for help but try looking up Amnesty Ireland maybe?
I wish you the best of luck, keep us posted please.

Thanks for your reply, I am more concerned than horrified and want my two nieces to not be taken away for their sake, and indeed for the immediate families sake, we would be obviously devestated.

It sounds more and more to me that, that is this mans intention and the mother is in extreme denial. It is all down to her at the moment. Your advice and opinions has clarified it for me to a point. I really appreciate that a lot. Thanks everyone for your input.

I feel now that I can talk to the parent, and extended family better on this issue. Much appreciated. Thankyou.

Dfens

I'm not sure if he would benefit financially from an arranged marriage or not but I wouldn't rule it out. If it is an arranged marriage in this case it would be a forced marriage & the girls could end up married to a man older than their own father or a wifebeater etc.

How did your friend react to the case of Madeleine McCann, might be a good conversation starter as to child abductions etc. 'What the family must be going through?' 'Imagine never seeing your child again or not knowing what happened to her?' etc. and try to innocently work in the proposed trip to the UK.

Would the gardai be of any assistance in this matter or Dept. of Foreign Affairs. Those 2 little girls are lucky that they have people looking out for their welfare.
If mom is not listening, maybe the family needs to talk with social services or GP about her rational state of mind as to the children's welfare - the grandparents would have certain rights I believe.

siobhan.murphy

ffs secretly try to get the passports and destroy them,but keep a copy of the passport numbers,This woman could be in for serious trouble otherwise

Deliverance

siobhan.murphy wrote: »

ffs secretly try to get the passports and destroy them,but keep a copy of the passport numbers,This woman could be in for serious trouble otherwise

Thankyou!, that is perfect, I never thought of that. Thanks, that will be the first line of defence. I will advise on the taking of the passports and hiding them till the lady in question see's sense.

Thankyou for that advice, no passport means that they cannot travel. I will pass that on to immediate family members. It should be easy enough to do as well to get these passports and hide them discretely. Thank you so much!

Dfens

Deliverance wrote: »

Thankyou!, that is perfect, I never thought of that. Thanks, that will be the first line of defence. I will advise on the taking of the passports and hiding them till the lady in question see's sense.

Thankyou for that advice, no passport means that they cannot travel. I will pass that on to immediate family members. It should be easy enough to do as well to get these passports and hide them discretely. Thank you so much!

It's worth bearing in mind that for travel to the UK passports are not an absolute requirement, however, most airlines now require photo-ID for flights to the UK. Link
Other routes to England could be via Ferry from S. Ireland or through N. Ireland - don't know how well monitored these would be for traffic of minors. Also, seeing that this guy is in the airline business he may have connections to get around the girls not having passports for travel.
Seriously, mum's eyes need to be opened to the risks involved, as I said if this guy is genuinely interested in getting to know his daughters, I don't see why he can't do it in Ireland first. How do the girls feel about all this or do they know anything is going on?

Deliverance

Dfens wrote: »

It's worth bearing in mind that for travel to the UK passports are not an absolute requirement, however, most airlines now require photo-ID for flights to the UK. Link
Other routes to England could be via Ferry from S. Ireland or through N. Ireland - don't know how well monitored these would be for traffic of minors. Also, seeing that this guy is in the airline business he may have connections to get around the girls not having passports for travel.
Seriously, mum's eyes need to be opened to the risks involved, as I said if this guy is genuinely interested in getting to know his daughters, I don't see why he can't do it in Ireland first. How do the girls feel about all this or do they know anything is going on?

Thanks Dfens that is worth bearing in mind at this early stage if things take a turn. It is always worth staying ahead of these things and being as much aware as possible.

I have been talking to a number of forums on the same issue (not as much as this one in detail) but the consensus seems to be pretty much the same. The attitude of the Fathers Saudi faith is frightening and I was provided this link...

http://richarddawkins.net/articleCom...ive-Leak,page5

it seems like this culture is far reached from our own to the extreme and the odd thing is that the oldest girl in questions' name is my niece 'Aisha' (watch the link). Now this could be co-incedence but the timing is right on for our Aisha to be taken, it has left me pacing the floor in anger. I can't let this happen.

Help appreciated.

Ginger83

Horrified to read your story, it sounds like this father is out to financially gain out of selling his daughters whom he has not bothered with in years into arranged marriages. Why make contact now, there is definitely a motive behind it. You need to discuss the matter with social services immediately regardless of what the mother thinks. They must know the whole story, the mother will thank you.

About the passports.... if as you say the mother loves or is still in love with this man then destoring the passports would only mean the mother could get replacements for her daughters.

Could you not suggest the mother go with the daughters. If this father wants to get to know them after all this time why does he make the point of wanting to bring them away on their own.

I wish you the very best of luck and remember anything you do is for the best interest of the girls, if you have to fall out with people who are blinded by emotion you need to ask yourself what is more important. I'm sure you do not have to think twice, good luck

luckat

Maybe you could get some books for your sister - Not Without My Daughter by Betty Mahmoody, At Any Price: How America Betrayed My Kidnapped Daughters for Saudi Oil by Patricia Roush and Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia by Jenny Sasson, to start with.

If her daughters go to Saudi Arabia, she will have no right to them under the court system there, as far as I know - children are the father's right, not the mother's. And if they're married, bye-bye.

A couple of articles:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/british-wife-faces-child-kidnap-charge-in-dubai-653793.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010895.php
http://www.newint.org/columns/letters-from/2004/08/01/torn/

Dades

Dfens wrote: »

Why can't he 'get to know them' here in Ireland under supervised access - afterall would she hand her kids over to a virtual stranger ?

Exactly.

"Getting to know" your estranged kids doesn't have to involve airports. Deliverance, you and her family really need to take control here.

barbiegirl

Could I suggest a quick chat with the 15 year old as well. Don't scare her unnecessarily or bad mouth or dad but make her aware or the risks. Then if she won't go then neither will her sister. Suggest to the 15 year old that you have no objection to her meeting her dad and getting to know him but it MUST be in Ireland and no passports or photo id's brought with them. That way he can't get them out of the country. Plus I would suggest that when he meets with them that a family member is within 5 to 10 minutes of getting to them. She isn't a child but a teenager who would I suspect like a little input and could be the sensible person here. Unfortunately if mum is fragile she may be more sensible that she needs to be for her age.

Deliverance

luckat wrote: »

Maybe you could get some books for your sister - Not Without My Daughter by Betty Mahmoody, At Any Price: How America Betrayed My Kidnapped Daughters for Saudi Oil by Patricia Roush and Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia by Jenny Sasson, to start with.

If her daughters go to Saudi Arabia, she will have no right to them under the court system there, as far as I know - children are the father's right, not the mother's. And if they're married, bye-bye.

A couple of articles:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/british-wife-faces-child-kidnap-charge-in-dubai-653793.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010895.php
http://www.newint.org/columns/letters-from/2004/08/01/torn/

Thank you luckat, that is a v.good point because the mother is an avid book reader. She in vulnerable but not stupid (ignorent certainly), so I think a shocking read could help to shock her into reality. I'll look into the books that you suggested. I think knowing her, that this could help a lot.

Deliverance

Dades wrote: »

Exactly.

"Getting to know" your estranged kids doesn't have to involve airports. Deliverance, you and her family really need to take control here.

Yes that is very true. From the advice that I have gained here from members of this forum I think that I can formulate some kind of strategy that will lead to counteracting this mans walk in attitude and possible cultural kidnap. In a way I hope that he is genuine but his actions say to me that he is manipulating the mother and has an agenda.

I think that I'm formulating a strategy through advice and research. I feel that these kids need protection untill they reach an age where they can make their own decisions. At the moment they are under threat as far as I and other members of the family are concerned.

I think that luckats suggestion is my first course of action i.e. bombarding the woman / mother with literature. I think that will at least make her think.

Nevyn

Can someone not accompany the kids ?
Can he not visit them here ?

Orion

Social services will do nothing in time or at all - try it but don't hold your breath. But, afaik, there may be a legal issue with a non-guardian taking a minor out of the state. I'm assuming he never signed/notarised a declaration of guardianship. That could be used to prevent him taking them outside Ireland - and it doesn't need a relation to prevent it - you can prevent it by notifying the relevant authorities. You'll have to ask a solicitor/legal expert for the details.

From reading your post I'd be very very concerned and you are right to do everything in your power to stop this. Girls are chattel in Saudi Arabia and once they are there they're gone for good. It may be worth checking (I don't know how) if visas have been applied for for the girls to travel to Saudi. That would be good to show the mother to prove the point.

metrovelvet

I think its a good idea to take the passports if ALL ELSE fails, but I will also forewarn you that on several occassions coming into Irish passport control no one bothered to check my son's passport.

di11on

In my opinion, allowing this to happen would be an act of negligence on the part of the mother.

I don't care about the legality of the situation and what rights, if any the father has as biological father of the children. From a moral point oif view, this mother has a duty of care to her children and if she allows this to happen, she would be abdicating her responsbilities.

There are so many other options that eliminate or reduce the obvious risks here that the intent must be sinister, in my opinion.

The issue here isn't finding an alternative option - there are so many. The issue is how to make this mother see reason. What can be done here? Could you approach someone she respects, like a clergy man or relative?

Love2love

This is a very dangerous situation and should be handled with extreme care. I would recommend a call to the Irish Embassy in Saudi and getting as much advise about this as possible. Here is a link to the number and address.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=5513

Deliverance

di11on wrote: »

In my opinion, allowing this to happen would be an act of negligence on the part of the mother.

I don't care about the legality of the situation and what rights, if any the father has as biological father of the children. From a moral point oif view, this mother has a duty of care to her children and if she allows this to happen, she would be abdicating her responsbilities.

There are so many other options that eliminate or reduce the obvious risks here that the intent must be sinister, in my opinion.

The issue here isn't finding an alternative option - there are so many. The issue is how to make this mother see reason. What can be done here? Could you approach someone she respects, like a clergy man or relative?

I think that I am the person to be approached in this respect, I do not want this responsibility but it is more and more looking like that I have to take this on. I have my own issues (work) at the moment but I think that this work should be put to one side to concentrate on the matter at hand.

Gosh deliverance I'm shocked reading this thread! I really hope you do everything physically possible to prevent these poor girls being taken out of the country!!
Definitely agree on the passport burning/hiding and have a chat with them to let them know there is no reason whatsoever for them to leave the country for an unsupervised meeting with this man, call social services etc and definitely talk some sense into the mother
very very dodgy stuff, good luck !

newman10

Have a friend who married a Malasian and the marriage broke up. DO NOTunder any circumstances let the children leave the State. Let him come here and have a supervised visit with the children.

Would you entrust your children to a stranger even though he is their father

tinkerbell

This is very serious - there should be major alarm bells ringing in the mother's head that the father wants to take them to England and has never spent time with them before. You hear so many stories in the news about abductions, please do all you can to make her see sense. Do some research - get news stories, books, talk to her, everything you can.

You should have a word with the children too - children these days are very mature and I'm sure they wouldn't like to think of the possibility of abduction or whatever. Maybe if they don't want to see the father then the mother might listen to them first and put their feelings first rather than being so naive.

Even with the whole passport thing too - even if you do hide their passports, they could still be abducted in this country and taken on a boat, you just don't know. The best thing to do is avoid the situation completely and if visits are allowed, only supervised.

This sort of thing is awful and I hope you can make the mother see sense before it's too late, otherwise the repercussions could be just horrible

tagoona

Just thinking about this makes me shudder.
I know what you said OP, but I think you really need to lea on the mother and get her to appreciate the situation

If you are going to do it though, passports will have to disappear the day before. Any sooner, and replacements can be got in a couple of days.
I really hope it works out.

Gyalist

The father may already have Saudi travel documents in their names so hiding/destroying their Irish passports may not make a difference. The only option is to make the mother come to her senses and not allow them to leave Ireland with him under any circumstances - and any access with him in Ireland should be supervised.

Gyalist

Ginger83 wrote: »

Could you not suggest the mother go with the daughters. If this father wants to get to know them after all this time why does he make the point of wanting to bring them away on their own.

The mother being with the girls won't make the slightest bit of difference in Saudi. The courts will automatically award custody to the father.

Gyalist

Macros42 wrote: »

Social services will do nothing in time or at all - try it but don't hold your breath. But, afaik, there may be a legal issue with a non-guardian taking a minor out of the state. I'm assuming he never signed/notarised a declaration of guardianship. That could be used to prevent him taking them outside Ireland - and it doesn't need a relation to prevent it - you can prevent it by notifying the relevant authorities. You'll have to ask a solicitor/legal expert for the details.

As the parents were married he is automatically a joint guardian if they were married in Ireland.

OP you need urgent legal advice form a specialist family law solicitor.

Deliverance

Thank you all for so much good advice. I will pass on this advice to the family and I hope that the Mother in this case takes it on board. I hope this all works out as such. I am busy but I am at a point now where I think I need to drop this work to concentrate on this priority, as I think it is taking my concentration away from this work anyway (I find myself in a position where I can't think of anything else).

I really appreciate your interest and advice. Thanks all.

havana

My friends ex attempted to abduct her son but was thankfully stopped at the ferry. Its a very real threat and hopefully your friend can be helped to see this.

please keep us updated cos i know i will be thinking of this thread.

luckat

It's also a very good idea to talk to the Department of Foreign Affairs and get their advice, and to have them apprised of the situation just in case. http://www.dfa.ie, and the contact numbers http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=73691

Deliverance

havana wrote: »

My friends ex attempted to abduct her son but was thankfully stopped at the ferry. Its a very real threat and hopefully your friend can be helped to see this.

please keep us updated cos i know i will be thinking of this thread.

havana wrote: »

My friends ex attempted to abduct her son but was thankfully stopped at the ferry. Its a very real threat and hopefully your friend can be helped to see this.

please keep us updated cos i know i will be thinking of this thread.

Hi havana and all others that offered so much good advice. I feel that I should offer an update to let you know what has happened since.

The trip went ahead and the mother accompanied the kids to Sheffield with the 'Father' and the trip was at best, an uncomfortable experience. The father bought them outlandish expensive gifts and basically tried in to buy their love.

The kids, (one is a teen and the other is a pre-teen) really really did not like him at all, he was confused by this and voiced that he was their dad and he felt that they should like him and I suppose love him in some kind of missing long lost father first meeting fantasy moment type of way.

Needless to say the kids took the gifts and got through the trip safely i.e. they got back home, thankfully.

The father proceeded to skype the kids wishing to talk to them but they did not want to talk to him as they simply did not like him because in their view their first real meeting with dad was in their view a meeting with a stranger who just wanted to buy them with gifts rather than getting to know them. They are smart kids.

It is kind of sad though, to me this just goes to show what a dad is all about i.e. being there and caring etc. This guy did not do that and he is paying the price by having his own kids treating him much like he has treated them for the last 10yrs+.

Anyway a big thanks to everyone here for concern and advice I really appreciate it, thank you all.

Zynks

Great to hear the mother decided to go along. Thanks for the update. This seems like a pretty good outcome.

MojoMaker

How is your sister feeling about it all now that she's back from the trip? Will she stay in contact with her ex now?

Gyalist

Glad to hear that everything worked out well.

I know someone who was in a similar situation except that her ex-husband was from a very wealthy and politically-connected Nigerian family. They kids met their father after many years when the older one was 18 and the younger 13. They did not get on with their Dad (and still don't) but have since formed close relationships with their grandparents and their cousins and they're happy that they have discovered the other side of their heritage.

Dublin Mama

Deliverance wrote: »

When I think about it... he is suddenly taking the kids *plus passports* to a close country i.e. England.

She needs to go with them to England, definetely!

Deliverance

Deliverance wrote: »

Hi havana and all others that offered so much good advice. I feel that I should offer an update to let you know what has happened since.

The trip went ahead and the mother accompanied the kids to Sheffield with the 'Father' and the trip was at best, an uncomfortable experience. The father bought them outlandish expensive gifts and basically tried in to buy their love.

I'm glad nothing bad happened I was worried for those kids!
I hope the mother is trying to move on from him now ??

Woddle

I'm glad the kids are home safe and nothing bad happened and I was very concerned also based on the info you had given. Now I'm a father of 2 girls and thankfully have never been out of their lives but if this father was trying to connect or make a bond with his daughters, I wonder how much you and your close family played in this experience not going very well, did you sit down with the girls before the trip and perhaps given them a negative take on their father. We only heard one side of the story and it was worrying but how do we know that the other side was not a genuine but misguided attempt at reconnecting with his daughters.

Deliverance

Woddle wrote: »

if this father was trying to connect or make a bond with his daughters,

To be honest if he was that concerned he would have made a better effort over time. Plus as stated in the original post he did take off with 30k of the mothers savings. Not a good indication of his motives and personality to be honest.

I wonder how much you and your close family played in this experience not going very well, did you sit down with the girls before the trip and perhaps given them a negative take on their father.

Not at all, the onus was on the Mother alone to take responsibility about a potentially bad situation happening.

We only heard one side of the story and it was worrying but how do we know that the other side was not a genuine but misguided attempt at reconnecting with his daughters.

Fair comment, I can answer that by saying... despite the mothers vulnerability I would say that she never ever said a bad word about him to the kids and the family never did either.

The children are well educated, happy and loved. This good family environment I think, led them to make their own decisions based on the fathers sudden interest and made them question who he was as a person via their own choices. They were simply not comfortable with a stranger trying to buy their love. It's the price he is paying for his actions and maybe he will learn something by it.