Head gasket on rover

CQ

Hi i was wondering if anyone could help me, i recently had my car serviced, new timing belt brake pads & the works, its a 2003 rover 25 with appox 50,000milesm, i noticed after taking my car out that the fan in the engine was running alot after the car stopped, i asked a few people about this & they tolds me its just the engine coolong down, finally, the car started to stall, and eventually gave up all together, i've now been told that the head gasket is gone............i just wanted to know, if it were possible when they serviced the car, to have done something that may have caused this, i have heard that rovers are prone to this, but its seems a bit odd that it happened so shortly after a full service

Drummerboy08

When you say a full serivce was carried out, can you list exactly what work was done to the car?

Anan1

I can't really see how they could have caused the HG to go. That said, if I were a mechanic and a customer came to me looking to have the timing belt replaced on a Rover I think i'd suggest making sure the HG was ok first. Remember, though, i'm not a mechanic.:)

CQ

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

When you say a full serivce was carried out, can you list exactly what work was done to the car?

Not exactly.........i know they did tell me that because it was coming up to 50,000 miles, that the timing belt needed changing & brake pads replaced, it was 560euros worth of servicing, so i presume everything was checked

Ferris

A service wouldn't necessarily pick this up, its a common problem on these cars. Heres a full thread on another owners issue:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055529923&highlight=rover

leitrim lad

a service would not necessary pick this up.
how ever if the mechanic knew anything about his job he should have known that the engine wasnt right, in some cases when the head gasget is gone ,water/fuel wil mix with the engine oil,
and you will also notice the car using alot of water, (if you check it),
rovers commonnly do this but a mechanic should be on full time aleart around a rover to tell you whats going and if its serios, if they are not telling you this they are simply bluffing you for your money ,or they dont know much about mechanics.
also you would notice loss of compression and maybe an oil leak around the top of the block ,bottom of the head, as that is where the gasket is,eventually the car would just turn over and not fire up

CQ

So really, they should have checked the head gasket when replacing the timing belt.......?
I really dont know much about cars (female!!), thats why i have it serviced regularly, so as to pick up anything thats wrong & have oil water etc checked, they are going to check the pressure today to see if it it difinately it the HG, what are the rough costs of getting it replaced, and does this mean a new timing belt? The other posts has prices ranging from 320-800, and mention that i'll need a new timing belt

Gurgle

CQ wrote: »

So really, they should have checked the head gasket when replacing the timing belt.......?

There is no 'checking' on a head gasket, its either intact or its not. If its not, you will lose power straight away. In a very short time the breach in the seal grows and the engine stops working.

This is the most common mis-diagnosis of general engine failure for many models of cars, especially Rovers.

If whoever 'told' you its the head gasket hasn't actually drained the oil out of the engine and confirmed that theres water in there then they're talking shyte.

I know of at least two cases with the old Rover 414i where the Rover garages immedietly said 'head gasket', replaced it at a charge of ~€600 only to have the problem return within a week. In one case the car was fixed by replacing the *spurious* distributor rotor that the Rover garage had put it with a second hand original Rover one.

In the other case the car was scrapped as being 'not worth fixing' (quote from the garage).

CQ

Gurgle wrote: »

There is no 'checking' on a head gasket, its either intact or its not. If its not, you will lose power straight away. In a very short time the breach in the seal grows and the engine stops working.
I first notice the fan running after the car had stopped running, then the engine cutting out, when i as comig to junctions & slowing down, then the engine cutting out as i was driving along, going round rounds abouts & such, or if i slowed down

CQ

This is the most common mis-diagnosis of general engine failure for many models of cars, especially Rovers.



If whoever 'told' you its the head gasket hasn't actually drained the oil out of the engine and confirmed that theres water in there then they're talking shyte.
What questions should i be asking the mechanic?


I know of at least two cases with the old Rover 414i where the Rover garages immedietly said 'head gasket', replaced it at a charge of ~€600 only to have the problem return within a week. In one case the car was fixed by replacing the *spurious* distributor rotor that the Rover garage had put it with a second hand original Rover one.



In the other case the car was scrapped as being 'not worth fixing' (quote from the garage).[/quote]

They told me its worth fixing, but not sure is it a money scam, i've just givne them 560 for a service

gofaster_s13

Gurgle wrote: »

If whoever 'told' you its the head gasket hasn't actually drained the oil out of the engine and confirmed that theres water in there then they're talking shyte.

Totally wrong, a faulty headgasket wont always put water into the oil, they can blow between cylinders(loosing compression), they can blow to an oil gallery(causing a lot of "blow" at the breathers, oil filler cap etc), they can blow to the water jacket(pressurising the coolant) and they can blow out under the head(rare) none of these will cause water to get into the oil.

CQ

so really i'm just going to have to trust the garage that they know what they are doing & arent taking the mick

Drummerboy08

Have you any reason not to trust them?

CQ

Not really, just seem to be throwing money at them lately, and not getting satisfactory results, so dont know if they are just telling me stuff cause they know that i wouldnt know any different.
Does having the head gasket replaced lower the price of the car, cause after this i think i will sell it

Anan1

CQ wrote: »

Does having the head gasket replaced lower the price of the car, cause after this i think i will sell it

No, but why sell it after spending all that money? It's a grand little car once the HG's been taken care of.

CQ

Was think of selling anyways, cause i've a big dog, who just about fits in the boot, and because of the parking sensors and no hitch i cant get a dog trailer!!:D

leitrim lad

yes i mentioned they loss of compression, and the possibility of the water /oil mixing, and the possobility of the oil leak between the head/block these are all points to a failed hg,
however, as you are a lady, and i dont mean to be offensive, im just trying to set you in the right direction, but are you sure they put a new timing belt on the car, and if so did they set the timing right, and did the belt tighten properly, because this could also match up to your description, and it most certanily wouldnt be the first time a garage told a lady they put a new timing belt in her car ,and before she got it home it either slipped, or the old one that was never changed snapped,
if this turnes out to be the case the garage will have no doubt about it ,but to replace anything you wish on the car or else they would be in for a bumpy ride trough the courts, if this was the case.

CQ

No offence taken, thats what i've been wondering about, as the car was working grand before it was serviced,could it be just be a coincidence? I'm sure they are not going to tell me if they have stuffed something up, but will charge me to fix it.

Mr Tombstone

CQ wrote: »

Hi i was wondering if anyone could help me, i recently had my car serviced, new timing belt brake pads & the works, its a 2003 rover 25 with appox 50,000milesm, i noticed after taking my car out that the fan in the engine was running alot after the car stopped, i asked a few people about this & they tolds me its just the engine coolong down, finally, the car started to stall, and eventually gave up all together, i've now been told that the head gasket is gone............i just wanted to know, if it were possible when they serviced the car, to have done something that may have caused this, i have heard that rovers are prone to this, but its seems a bit odd that it happened so shortly after a full service

Hey dude I love the Rovers and my dads got one the heads went on his he loved it so much he got it replaced. The only way to detect if the heads are starting to go is if the water bottle goes murky. The nickname for the rovers new engine is "the choclate engine" because they melt. But when the heads are fixed its like a new car. But its a expensive job to do.

Mr Tombstone

CQ wrote: »

No offence taken, thats what i've been wondering about, as the car was working grand before it was serviced,could it be just be a coincidence? I'm sure they are not going to tell me if they have stuffed something up, but will charge me to fix it.

You cant stuff up the heads on purpose the engine does that all on its own im afraid.

CQ

B]quote=Mr Tombstone;59724914]You cant stuff up the heads on purpose the engine does that all on its own im afraid.[/quote[/B

I dont think they stuffed up the HG, but they told me y'day that the HG was gone, that they have to take the head off, which will take about 4 hrs & do a pressure test
I was just wondering could it have been anything else, something they did wrong when they serviced it, and maybe its not the HG?

leitrim lad

well the only other thing i can thinkof is the timing belt either slipping/snapping, or not being set right in the first place, but the pressure test will tell no lies, also are you really sure they put new plugs in the car, as i know my relations rover packed up, sounded serious until i stuck a new set of plugs in it then it was like new again,

Mr Tombstone

CQ wrote: »

B]quote=Mr Tombstone;59724914]You cant stuff up the heads on purpose the engine does that all on its own im afraid.[/quote[/B

I dont think they stuffed up the HG, but they told me y'day that the HG was gone, that they have to take the head off, which will take about 4 hrs & do a pressure test
I was just wondering could it have been anything else, something they did wrong when they serviced it, and maybe its not the HG?

I know what your saying but I reckon the gasket had already gone or on the way.
Either way id get it fixed it will be like a new car.

leitrim lad

my estimates, headgasket, and others, rockerand so on ,around €59/60 plus vat @ 21.5%.
labor 3 hours to strip, 3 hours to rebuild, - 6hours labor, @ €50 per hour

€300 labor mad money i know
€75.00 gasget set

so at the most i rekon no more than €375/400on the very high side ,now keep in mind thats just a simple strip rebuild, there could be damage to the head, but you should have a safe car at the end of it

Gurgle

leitrim lad wrote: »

my estimates, headgasket, and others, rockerand so on ,around €59/60 plus vat @ 21.5%.
labor 3 hours to strip, 3 hours to rebuild, - 6hours labor, @ €50 per hour

€300 labor mad money i know
€75.00 gasget set

so at the most i rekon no more than €375/400on the very high side ,now keep in mind thats just a simple strip rebuild, there could be damage to the head, but you should have a safe car at the end of it

From a garage that just charged €560 for a service + timing belt?

CQ

Thats great to have an idea of how much it costs........just hope it worth it

gofaster_s13

leitrim lad wrote: »

my estimates, headgasket, and others, rockerand so on ,around €59/60 plus vat @ 21.5%.
labor 3 hours to strip, 3 hours to rebuild, - 6hours labor, @ €50 per hour

€300 labor mad money i know
€75.00 gasget set

so at the most i rekon no more than €375/400on the very high side ,now keep in mind thats just a simple strip rebuild, there could be damage to the head, but you should have a safe car at the end of it

You left out head bolts, head pressure test and check, coolant, oil and filter, thermostat and under no circumstances would I replace a headgasket on a rover(and most other cars) without replacing/recpring the radiator

CQ

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

You left out head bolts, head pressure test and check, thermostat and under no circumstances would I replace a headgasket on a rover(and most other cars) without replacing/recpring the radiator

Oh No

CQ

Gurgle wrote: »

From a garage that just charged €560 for a service + timing belt?

So that was expensive, i had new brake pads as well

martyc5674

Hi there,

Was the problem (stalling etc) noticeable immediately after you got the car back from the service?...If so id suspect the belt may not be aligned correctly/out a tooth or 2.
If this is the case you really need for them to set this right..

Or has it slowly deteriorated?

If you have a list of what the service entailed (just the engine parts replaced would be good) that may help.

you may have something like a loose/faulty ignition lead after the plugs were replaced....your plugs may not have been tightened properly either which will result in lost compression.

Tell tale signs of a head gasket have been mentioned already...look for the chocolate water bottle!...remove your dipstick and see if the oil looks creamy..or take the filler cap off the top of the engine and see if the oil looks creamy.
Oil around the head of the engine?

However these will not always show up a faulty head gasket as the breach could be between any number of internal ports...pressure test to be certain.
Best of luck...i personally think that an engine blowing a head gasket after 50K is not acceptable, I would want to be 100% sure the head gasket IS ACTUALLY gone before committing to replacing it.
Marty.

CQ

martyc5674 wrote: »

Hi there,

Was the problem (stalling etc) noticeable immediately after you got the car back from the service?...If so id suspect the belt may not be aligned correctly/out a tooth or 2.
If this is the case you really need for them to set this right..

Or has it slowly deteriorated?

It had been deteroirating, the fan running after the engine had stopped was almost immediately after the service, the stalling came couple wkes later.
I will get a list if what was replaced & serviced the last time, i cant check anything as the car is now in the garage

gofaster_s13

martyc5674 wrote: »

i personally think that an engine blowing a head gasket after 50K is not acceptable, I would want to be 100% sure the head gasket IS ACTUALLY gone before committing to replacing it.
Marty.

Lucky to get 50k out of a Rover headgasket:D

Get an estimate from the garage, if your not happy get a second opinion

leitrim lad

that was a mad price for a service ,double too much atleast, and yes i left a few details out on the bill, but my estimate is in the correct field,and for charging so much for a service i would be putting it politely, to the garage manager that he was to replace oil,filter,plugs,and whatever else is required, at no extra cost, thats day light robbery the cars isnt worth much more than all that, no offence,
but i would say my self that the timing belt may need ajustment, i said it before and dont forget to remind them in this gold plated garage, because if its a couple of cogs out and in a few months time it could snap,or slip destroying your entire engine,
and that would really set you back

CQ

to the garage manager that he was to replace oil,filter,plugs,and whatever else is required, at no extra cost,

Isnt that what they do when they service the car..........maybe its cause i'm female, but thats what i expect when i get a service, for everything to be checked and replaced if needed.
I must get the list of stuff that was replaced when it was serviced

leitrim lad

thats what they tell you they do, as they might get the impression that a woman would be none the wiser,
just make sure they dont go over board

CQ

I asked them y'day what was done, he gave me a list, oil, filters, water pump, plugs, brake pads, timing belt, consumables and 80 euro labour.
He also said it definatley the gasket, as water was coming out the exhaust, but wont know exactly untill they take the head off, so he couldnt give me a price on repair.

BeardyGit

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Totally wrong, a faulty headgasket wont always put water into the oil, they can blow between cylinders(loosing compression), they can blow to an oil gallery(causing a lot of "blow" at the breathers, oil filler cap etc), they can blow to the water jacket(pressurising the coolant) and they can blow out under the head(rare) none of these will cause water to get into the oil.

Well said. The quality of advice given here is worrying at times. Nice to see there are folks here who DO know what they're writing about.

BeardyGit

If the job on a K series is done right, the engine will be flushed, the head will be stripped and tested, flatted or skimmed in an engineering workshop, not a dirty bench. A new type composite gasket will be used in the rebuild along with a new TB (your new tensioner/idler will be okay, and a belt is only c€20), waterpump (yours can be reused) and so forth, new coolant, oil, filters, breathers pipes checked and cleaned, sump dropped, cleaned and replaced....New head bolts, rocker cover gasket replaced etc. New thermostat and either a double flush on the rad, or consider a replacement. When you're getting in there to do a head gasket, there's a lot more that should be given some attention. It's a big job, if done properly. And it's not inexpensive as some here habitually suggest. Good quality parts, a good machine shop and a skilled mechanic are all expensive elements. I recently had a 1.8 Freelander from a friend to sort a failed headgasket - The total bill from my own mechanic (50 + VAT per hour) was €1500 including all parts and labour, machining etc. That was a damn sight better than the €3k he was quoted by a main dealer - Seriously, he has a printed quotation for that much, and it's 'just a head gasket'....

There are MANY people including mechanics who think it's okay to drain the oil, pull the head, have it skimmed and then refit it with a new OEM head gasket, a new belt and leave everything else as it is. That's taking shortcuts with your time and money. If however you insist on going the cheap route on K series HG replacement, at least spend the £60 to get a revised type composite gasket in from the UK. Main dealers here don't carry them, but get a specialist suppliers number from MG magazines and you'll be doing the right thing....it'll combat some (not all) of the causes for gasket fault on these engines.

Being honest, I wouldn't expect change from €7-800 considering the new parts that can/should be reused (WP, tensioners etc), and the time and labour expense involved in doing the job. You might do better with a 'lower costs' type garage/mechanic, but I wouldn't take too many shortcuts if you plan on keeping the car. And as said, it's a fine little car that'll be good for a few years with the work done.

YMMV,

Gil

BeardyGit

BTW, Leitrim Lads implication that you might be taken for a ride because you're a woman should be taken with a pinch of salt. From what you've written so far, I reckon your garage/mechanic are taking care of you and not fleecing you at all. I'm not in the trade, but the price they charged for the last major service sounds fine to me, assuming they've used good quality parts, and I reckon they have to be honest.

People always feel nervous when they've to spend money on something they don't fully understand. But there are MANY exemplary and thoroughly professional mechanics and garages out there - You just have to learn to recognise them. Don't take a confrontational approach with them over this HG issue - It's quite possible it just began to fail after the service, and it's highly improbable they could or would have done anything to provoke it. Judge them by how well they look after you now, and I'd be fairly sure they'll do it well. Tell them you'd like to know what the options are - They might give you a 'cheap fix' price, or a 'do it right' price. Ask them what they're giving you. They'll also be guaranteeing their work I'm sure - ask what it is, but I'd expect 12 months out of them anyway. I'd guess they won't resist, and that's a good thing. Pro's deliver a real service, not just bolting in parts and sending you on your way....

My own experience with cars suggests that it's usually when you've sunk a few quid into it that something else will crop up needing attention. Older ones are particularly needy, but that's just the way of the world. Things wear out and need doing, and some cars are known for those faults. Your rover is one of them. But get the job done now by a garage that sound like they're taking care of you, and you can be confident it'll last you a while....

Don't be put of with the whole "she's a bird, let's fleece her" line of thinking that you will see here time and time again. It's paranoid thinking from people who'd begrudge paying to have a job done the right way in the first place...

Darragh29

CQ wrote: »

Hi i was wondering if anyone could help me, i recently had my car serviced, new timing belt brake pads & the works, its a 2003 rover 25 with appox 50,000milesm, i noticed after taking my car out that the fan in the engine was running alot after the car stopped, i asked a few people about this & they tolds me its just the engine coolong down, finally, the car started to stall, and eventually gave up all together, i've now been told that the head gasket is gone............i just wanted to know, if it were possible when they serviced the car, to have done something that may have caused this, i have heard that rovers are prone to this, but its seems a bit odd that it happened so shortly after a full service

You will often see this issue at 50,000 miles or thereabouts on Rover engines. Nothing weird about that OP...

CQ

I think the garage are honest enough, but does have a rep for being pricey, so i'll just have to trust them

Darragh29

CQ wrote: »

I think the garage are honest enough, but does have a rep for being pricey, so i'll just have to trust them

Well shop around OP. I wouldn't be pointing a finger of blame at the garage though, head gaskets going on Rovers are very common after 50K.

CQ

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well shop around OP.

They cant give me an estimate till they take the head off, and if i was to go else where then, i'd be paying two places, i presume

Darragh29

CQ wrote: »

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well shop around OP.

They cant give me an estimate till they take the head off, and if i was to go else where then, i'd be paying two places, i presume

Well they should be able to give you a price for the following:

Head gasket replacement set (usually under 100 Euro)

Cylinder head replacement bolts (usually under 100 Euro)

Radiator flush (to remove oil contamination from cooling system, approx 20 Euro max)

Cost to you of having cylinder head resurfaced and pressure tested (usually around 50 Euro).

Cost of replacement engine oil, coolant, oil filter, etc. (approx 60 Euro)

Their labour rate X 8 hours for this job, based on it taking a day to do from start to finish.

If they are charging 70 Euro an hour labour, you could expect to pay around 560 Euro labour for this job. Parts above are coming in at around 330 Euro. Add the two, and with VAT at 13.5%, it's working out at just over 1,000 Euro.

I did this job before and I don't think I charged anywhere close to this amount for it, I think it was around half that if I remember correctly. These prices are just off the top of my head, but either way, the garage should be able to give you a price for the job, subject to dismantling.

CQ

I've been given a cost of 750, so judging by the last post, it doesnt seem to bad, the head has to be sent away to get skimmed, which costs 150 ive been told, the rest is parts & labour. So i think i'll get it done, get it through the NCT in few weeks & sell it

Keith in cork

my bad wrong thread....