How to get a really good drum sound LIVE

puremule

I've been talking to a lot of drummers lately about getting a good drum sound at live gigs and it seems that a lot of them have the same problem. Even with the use of various dampners etc there still seems to be a problem in getting a good in particular tom and bass drum sound. For example we are using sennheiser e604's on the main kit and AKG D112 on the bass drum. We are also using DBX 266xl Compressor/ Gates with the kit to try and achieve that BIG sound. This is probably down to operator error mostly but is their an idiots guide or something similiar to getting a good drum sound live using compressors etc or even without using them. Cheers in advance.:eek:

if6was9

Well what I find is its a balance between clarity and bigness, when dialing out the resonance of a tom with eq, take too much and the toms end up too thin, too little and they sound big on single hits but any kind of quick rolls and such get lost in the boomy resonance.

A little verb on the toms with more on the floor tom than the rest can really lend itself to a big sound too.
You should be able to get a really nice big sound without using gates and comps live. Once you have a really nice sound maybe add em in but you should be almost all the way there without them.

Obviously tuning is vital aswell- a well tuned tom with a not too old skin on it always requires far less work to get a nice sound.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

if you dont have a drummer with a big sound , you wont get a big sound - unless you trigger the lot .
if you get a drummer who knows how to project , then youll get a big sound .

I suggest you test your setup with a drummer who can project , to confirm whether its the players you have or the setup thats the issue.
you may be shocked at the difference.

the main sound come from the drummer technique and his stick choice
then the heads / tuning / damping

after that its mic placement
the actuall mics and processing wont have as massive and effect as the above - it will help , but not as much as the rest.
you need to eq to enhance and magnify once you have a sound , not use eq to try and get a sound that dont exist.

if you are close micing - and looking for a thick , full , produced sound - you need to choose a kit with dual ply top heads ,
like an emporor , and tune them fairly low , bottom heads a bit tighter
get the mic close to the drum .the 604s are good mics - they can shake about abit though - stands are better.
the kick - the akg is a great mic for punch and a produced sound , you just need to scoop the middle a bit and adda bit of 75 hz
or use an audix D6 and add a bit of middle to it.

tune the kick down low with a ps4 head or any dual ply coated . and use a beater patch for extra click .
dont dampen anyhing other than the kick , and dont even do that if you can just use good tuning and the right heads.

dual ply heads are good for live , they tend to reduce the hum and ring that single plys give you
and they tune lower but keep tone - tuning single plys low doent give the same thickness you need.


and dont underestimate the value of having the hi hats and cymbals audible enough - they add to the polish of hearing the quality of kit sound .
most live gigs i attend - you cant hear the cymbals and hats .

and lastly - you will need to use some reverbs to bigify the kit , mainly on toms and snare - to expand their punch .

im not a live engineer , but this has been my expeience as a drummer .

Savman

First, and most obvious question, what PA you using?
Usually complaints about not having enough chest thumping kick is down to 'not enough rig for the gig' as well as all the good points made above.

puremule

Savman wrote: »

First, and most obvious question, what PA you using?
Usually complaints about not having enough chest thumping kick is down to 'not enough rig for the gig' as well as all the good points made above.

We're using a dynacord P5 with two 15" Tops and four 18" Bins

Savman

Aye I remember you mentioning that before, you shouldn't have sound issues with a rig like that unless your pushing it beyond it's limits.

All the stuff Dadumtish detailed is correct from a 'fix it at source' perspective, if everything is good in the hood on the drum kit end then the end result will be determined by the mixing desk, preamps, EQ (and your use of it), outboard (and your use of it) and, above all, having a good operator.

When you say "really good drum sound live", what specifically are you not happy with currently?

PMI

Having run every stage of P5....

Graphic = boost 40hz drop 250 and 4k to start with.... then eq for the room.

tuning a kit live and for studio are 2 different things, not when in the O2 but when using a P5 and being in that size of venue tuning is different.

The D112 is fine, and so are the other mics....

Remember what you have, 2k low end and only 2 x 350 watt mid hi's.... so placement is alllllllllll important.

Kick = learn to love 63-80hz and notch out what i call the boink and all click if its needed up anywhere YOU like...

Snare = try not to go for alot of low end as your then placing some of the snare overtones into the sub area so soaking power and making the speaker reproduce more than is needed. 6k on a snare will help if cut through and compression is your best friend here.

GATES GATES GATES or you wont be able to run the faders as high as you need to for impact.

THe crossover on the PM2600 amp is 120hz so try to think what is needed in the bins and what isnt.... and its a 3k amp on a test bench not 2.6k as on front (they underated it)

What band you in? where ya playing if im ever around I will take a look

puremule

Savman wrote: »

Aye I remember you mentioning that before, you shouldn't have sound issues with a rig like that unless your pushing it beyond it's limits.

All the stuff Dadumtish detailed is correct from a 'fix it at source' perspective, if everything is good in the hood on the drum kit end then the end result will be determined by the mixing desk, preamps, EQ (and your use of it), outboard (and your use of it) and, above all, having a good operator.

When you say "really good drum sound live", what specifically are you not happy with currently?

Not getting a good tom and bass drum sound

madtheory

Primarily it's the drummer, how he plays, and how he's tuned the kit (this has been stated already, but worth re stating).

If the drummer plays really well, and tunes the kit before each gig, then the rest is easy With a good drummer, who actually hits properly, gates are not essential at all.

Secondly, it's the room, and most rooms are too small to get that sort of sound. A lot of venues have stud partitions with floating floors, so the whole place resonates. The small size added to the resonance gives you loads of extra energy below 300Hz, so no definition or power.

Thirdly, mic positioning. Not eq.

The drummer is 90% of the sound. The room is 9.999%. Mics and compressors etc. just give you the icing on the cake.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Primarily it's the drummer, how he plays, and how he's tuned the kit (this has been stated already, but worth re stating).

If the drummer plays really well, and tunes the kit before each gig, then the rest is easy With a good drummer, who actually hits properly, gates are not essential at all.

Secondly, it's the room, and most rooms are too small to get that sort of sound. A lot of venues have stud partitions with floating floors, so the whole place resonates. The small size added to the resonance gives you loads of extra energy below 300Hz, so no definition or power.

Thirdly, mic positioning. Not eq.

The drummer is 90% of the sound. The room is 9.999%. Mics and compressors etc. just give you the icing on the cake.

I agree. As is often the case in audio, the obvious not particularly exciting thing is the most important.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

can you live lads outline how you see drums headed and tuned according to room size /

my approach is - small room / pub / club - single heads tuned high -ish , no micing bar the kick

mid to large - single or better = double plys - medium tuned all miced

large = double plys low tuned all miced

snares = most drummers dont change the snare tunings unless in small places to keep volume down.


I come from the generation of hard hitting projecting drummers - and ive noticed that the younger lads do not hit drums hard enough
particularly the metallers - they play fast and light and skitter around the kit - its needed for speed , but the drum sound is very weak .

this kind of playing will only be solved with triggers or a radical technique change - which may not suit super fast metal playing .
most metal speed merchants use triggers and samples only , no real drum sound bar cymbals .

madtheory

Well you can tune them by ear, and that's the drummer's job, not the engineer's. If the room is small, just play quieter- and don't put the kit through the PA!!!!

Actually, I think the biggest problem is that engineers don't take time to listen to the band on stage, and hear what their natural balance is. IT's always straight in to miking the kit, which is just being a jobsworth. In most irish venues, it's only the vocal that needs to go through FOH and monitors. The backline and kit are their own PA and monitors.

What happens is that guitarists put their amps on the floor, so they're firing at their ankles, but at the audience's ears. Cue awful sound, deafened punters, and consant complaints from musos to FOH that monitors are not loud enough.

Remember, the Vox AC30 originally came with a stand that allowed you to set it at an angle of 50 degrees or so. And the Fender Twin has a leg on each side for the same purpose. Point the amps at your heads!!

PMI

Remember on the circuit this guy is on, hes doing it from on stage and maybe max 2 hours setup time, so you need to know your craft pretty quick !

puremule

PMI wrote: »

Remember on the circuit this guy is on, hes doing it from on stage and maybe max 2 hours setup time, so you need to know your craft pretty quick !

Cheers man. Justed PM'd you. The problem I suppose is doing the likes of weddings and parties we really dont have a awful lot of time to be soundchecking etc