Massive NTL analogue bill and extra TV points - help please!

Duffman

My parents have always had a basic NTL analogue subscription. I was fairly shocked to discover that the annual charge for this is €504! I thought NTL might be taking the piss slightly with this so I investigated the breakdown futher.

The annual subscription fee is €293 and the remainder is for "Extra Basic TV Points" of which there are 5. They appear to be around €3.50 each per month but this all adds up to over €200 annually.

Can anyone enlighten me as to how the pricing structure for extra TV points works?

A few years ago the house was extended and completely rewired. The electricians ran coax cable to points in most rooms. Now I seem to recall that a few years later there was an NTL fault of some kind and an engineer called out. As well as fixing the broken point, he proceeded to take out all points the electrician had installed (without being asked to do this as far as I am aware) and replaced them with NTL branded boxes with those screw connections on the bottom. I assume this is when the extra charges started.

The worst thing about all this is that most of those points are never used. There were simply installed at the same time the house was rewired to keep TV-related options open.

A brief look at the NTL site suggests that for similar monthly charges you could get full digital, phone and broadband. This is just basic analogue after all and it's €42 per month!

Can NTL legitimately charge for all this? With an Eircom line you pay a rental fee to have a connection made to your property. Eircom isn't interested in internal wiring at all. Why should cable TV be different?

Is there anything I can tell them to do to avoid these charges? What happens if they cancel the NTL sub? Presumably NTL can't rip out internal wiring?!

Any insights would be much appreciated. Thanks.

EDIT: The reception is also crap at all points, NTL-installed or otherwise.

Alun

I know that when we moved into our house, it had 5 points in total that the previous owner had had put in (and was using). We took over the existing ntl: analogue subscription (there was no digital at the time) and a simple phone call to ntl: was all it took to convince them that we only had one TV and to drop the charges for the additional points. For good measure I physically removed the amp / splitter in the junction box outside so the other 4 points are now inoperative anyway.

rubadub

When we moved in it was all DIY jobs, we held off subscribing and they kept sending better and better offers. In the end we paid €15 for each point and it came with free charges for the points, I think for good, though I expect if we changed anything, even upgraded they might try charging again.

I also wondered what happens if you say you no longer want them. I cannot see it being worth their time disconnecting and taking them out.

The charge should be the upkeep of them. e.g. if you did a DIY job you cannot expect to ring them and complain about reception. But you have paid and have poor reception. They limited us to 3 additional points, so 4 in all. They said any more will lead to bad reception.

Kensington

Duffman wrote: »

Can anyone enlighten me as to how the pricing structure for extra TV points works?

€3 per month, per point, IIRC.

Duffman wrote: »

A few years ago the house was extended and completely rewired. The electricians ran coax cable to points in most rooms. Now I seem to recall that a few years later there was an NTL fault of some kind and an engineer called out. As well as fixing the broken point, he proceeded to take out all points the electrician had installed (without being asked to do this as far as I am aware) and replaced them with NTL branded boxes with those screw connections on the bottom. I assume this is when the extra charges started.

Most likely - once they install extra points, they will begin charging you for each one. Seems very odd they'd put in five though - I always thought 4 was the maximum they'd put in for you since anymore would weaken the signal considerably, and they also have limited connections on the tap outside the house.

Duffman wrote: »

A brief look at the NTL site suggests that for similar monthly charges you could get full digital, phone and broadband. This is just basic analogue after all and it's €42 per month!

Yes, analogue is very poor value at the moment. The basic digital package is €20 per month, €4.50 less than analogue. Presumably, this is to try and shift people away from analogue onto digital, to begin to phase out the analogue system.

Duffman wrote: »

Can NTL legitimately charge for all this? With an Eircom line you pay a rental fee to have a connection made to your property. Eircom isn't interested in internal wiring at all. Why should cable TV be different?

Unfortunately, yes. NTLs argument would be that if you use a TV on that point, you should pay. Digital is a big moneyspinner at the moment - they charge €8.50 per month, per box, to have digital in another room (sky are even worse - €14.50 per month, per box). With an eircom line, you can only use one call at a time - with NTL you have the potential to have 17 different channels at a time. Little unfair but from a business point of view that's how it's seen.

Duffman wrote: »

Is there anything I can tell them to do to avoid these charges? What happens if they cancel the NTL sub? Presumably NTL can't rip out internal wiring?!

You can ask them to disconnect these extra points is about all. They'll do it from the outside, at the tap, so won't even have to enter the house, and they'll leave all of the internal wiring intact. You won't get a signal off any of the disconnected points though.


Your best bet may be to write them a letter, explaining the situation. Get the poor reception issue looked at too. However, in all likelihood here's not a whole lot they'll do since you've only queried the price now.

Koloman

The basic digital package seems to have gone up to 25 Euro per month although this includes a DVR as standard unlike the higher end packages.

STB

Duffman,

Hearing stories like this really gets to me.

Do the decent thing. Vote with your feet - get NTL disconnected. Buy your parents an Mvision HD200 Combo or one of the combo boxes. Install a sat dish and small aerial. All in its an investment that will cost you less than €250.

You will get RTE1,2, Tv3, Tg4, BBC1,2,3,4 and ITV1,2,3,4 (the +1s), Ch4, E4, More 4 (the +1s) Sky News, BBC News, CNN, Music Chanels and more (basically the freesat.co.uk list). It is easy to order the channels in whatever order you wish. They are parent friendly when stations are ordered (ie the up down or numbers can be used)

Oh yeah and your parents wont get TV Cable bills anymore (yes it is legal). And the quality will be significantly better than NTL analogue.

Why pay for what is free.....

Koloman

STB wrote: »

Duffman,

Hearing stories like this really gets to me.

Do the decent thing. Vote with your feet - get NTL disconnected. Buy your parents an Mvision HD200 Combo or one of the combo boxes. Install a sat dish and small aerial. All in its an investment that will cost you less than €250.

You will get RTE1,2, Tv3, Tg4, BBC1,2,3,4 and ITV1,2,3,4 (the +1s), Ch4, E4, More 4 (the +1s) Sky News, BBC News, CNN, Music Chanels and more (basically the freesat.co.uk list). It is easy to order the channels in whatever order you wish. They are parent friendly when stations are ordered (ie the up down or numbers can be used)

Oh yeah and your parents wont get TV Cable bills anymore (yes it is legal). And the quality will be significantly better than NTL analogue.

Why pay for what is free.....

Wouldn't it be better to wait till the Irish DTT gets under way before investing in one of those combo boxes?

watty

Yes. Just get satellite PVR and aerial

STB

Koloman wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better to wait till the Irish DTT gets under way before investing in one of those combo boxes?

No. DTT is underway and has been since RTE kicked off the rollout last August. This has been subject to engineering tweaking but has in the main been solid over the last year. I am watching TV3 at present through the combo box (in Dublin).

Over the last few months it is also been extended and rolled out at various tx sites around the country. This is the real thing. RTE have invested a lot more than the €200 you would invest on a combo box on DTT transmission, believe me. The spec is finalised for transmission and boxes. Those HD combo boxes identified above receive the channels NOW and in higher quality than analogue cable!


Regardless of watty's wait and see approach I would advise anyone tied into needless bills to go ahead and buy a combo box.

Combo boxes will be no cheaper when DTT actually "launches" ie the required % of coverage accross the country is reached. See the terrestrial forum for details of where DTT is receivable at the mo.

Combo boxes are not actually manufactured for Ireland and never will be as we dont drive these markets being the small country that we are. Luckily similar technology in other countries in Europe has ensured that there are suitable products available and at affordable prices.

Put it this way, a satellite pvr box will not pick up DTT AND never will.

That aerial will be no good connected to a non MPEG4 TV tuner in a few years time when analogue TV is switched off. You will then need to buy another set top box for DTT alone.

The combo boxes do have PVR via USB. The original posters parents have a problem with a cable supplier and quite obviously ridiculous bill. The OP was NOT looking for a PVR solution for satellite television in the first instance Watty.

This is a total solution. I have been using it for the last year. It user friendly for the older generation once tuned in and sorted.

Most people would actually be going this way if they could get this good advice.

A good combination of UK(and more if you want to add onto the sat LNB) and Irish TV with No bills..... for a small investment. FREE TV - whats the catch ! ah there has to be one.

Yes. It is the future, but its available now. Commercial companies may not want to hear it though. They want your money. Get ahead of the bunch.

[I dont sell or install this stuff - its personal advice]

I've swayed over to the darkside here Watty, I'll leave, thats my tuppence.:)

Sir Oxman

What sort of aerial is needed for use with the combo box, STB? Does it need to be located on the exterior of a building or like the old rabbit ears?

My Sky contract is due to finish in September and I have been trialling Media Centre with Sat card for free UK satellite and it works like a dream so would like to completely switch over to free tv in a few months in the living room but would like irish DTT channels as well.
Thanks.

watty

The point is that FOREVER almost two separate boxes are better as there is no significant market outside Ireland for combo boxes. I'd get a good HD PVR dual tuner Freesat box now and a dual tuner DTT PVR later. In other countries if you have the basic satellite Setup you get all the local terrestrial Digital channels. Ireland is about the only place where there is a real need for combo. Virtually no-one else needs them.

I doubt you will get a combo 4 tuner PVR that supports UK Sat EPG and Irish Terrestrial EPG properly.

The TV aerial needed for DTT depends on where you live. In Limerick WoodCock or North Dublin Three Rock an existing aerial works better for DTT than Analogue.


Sat over 45 decent free TV and over 15 decent radio free.

Analogue / Digital Terrestrial. Four channels that are Pay Only on Sat. (RTE1 &2 , TV3 TG4). There won't be more channels on DTT any time soon.

If you have used a PVR integrated to EPG weekly guide with series link, you would never ever want to use a separate recorder. Also PVR recordings ARE the live data, so playback is live quality. No external recorder can match that.

Really good Combo PVR solutions with 2 + 2 tuners are very expensive and amy not fully support UK freeview and Irish MHEG5 EPG/Interactive.

Note the Public Launched Irish DTT will not be doing EPG same method as today, but via MHEG5

STB

Watty,

The original response is in relation to the op's problem. Analogue NTL.

There is no EPG on analogue NTL. This free combo box will be a step up! Now and next epg data on the Sat channels & full 7 day on DTT. Or they can just flick up and down channels like they did on NTL analogue

Why are we talking about having the ultimate holy grail in a combo box ?. Yes I would love to have a 4 tuner scenario in a box, but the cost is ridiculous. Its anorak stuff.

This a cheap investment, the return is well worth it. There are no further bills.

Nno Combo box does MHEG5. And there is no need as you will get the EIT and DVB SI table data anyhow.

MHEG5 will be deployed for teletext initially. RTE specifically tendered as such.

Any use of MHEG5 in the future for EPG is not confirmed as yet and would only be a luxury.

Furthermore as I originally said we are lucky that other countries have similar technology deployed as ourselves when it comes to the availability of MPEG4 Combo boxes. Poland Germany Croatia Estonia France Sweden Spain, these are the countries driving the demand not us.

The Clarketech500c Combo box was actually designed in Germany (a redesign of the technomate 6900)! And look at the price in Germany versus UK! Supply and demand at play. Likewise the Mvision 200HD Combo designed in Spain.

Most people just want a mix of UK and IRISH stations. Most dont know this option is actually free and avavilable in 1 BOX with ONE remote control.


Gambiaman: You will get away with a indoor aerial in Dublin with clear line of site to three rock. Otherwise a small outdoor aerial or loft aerial will be more stable. See the terrestrial forum for more details on aerials etc.

Duffman

Thanks for all the suggestions here, some very interesting stuff.

I'm afraid I'll have to ask some fairly basic questions here to make sense of some of it!

So a combo box receives a free satellite signal and a digital terrestrial signal at the same time? I'm guessing the advantage of this is that the Irish terrestrial channels aren't on freesat and this allows you to view both?

If I bought a combo box with an indoor antenna in Dublin and didn't set up freesat dish, what channels would it receive immediately? Just the Irish terrestrial channels?

What would the multi-room options be with this setup? Most of the NTL points in the house aren't used but they would still want to be able to watch TV in 2 or 3 rooms simulataneously. Would a box for each room be needed?

What is the difference between DVB and DTT exactly?

Finally, sticking with NTL as an alternative, their digital packages are the same cost or even cheaper than analogue. Do their multi-room options include extra digital boxes which attract similar charges to extra analogue points?

Really appreciate the help so far, please bear with the basic questions

Kensington

Duffman wrote: »

So a combo box receives a free satellite signal and a digital terrestrial signal at the same time? I'm guessing the advantage of this is that the Irish terrestrial channels aren't on freesat and this allows you to view both?

Yes. The Irish terrestrial channels are encrypted, and only part of a sky package, on satellite.

Duffman wrote: »

If I bought a combo box with an indoor antenna in Dublin and didn't set up freesat dish, what channels would it receive immediately? Just the Irish terrestrial channels?

Only the four terrestrial channels transmitting in digital is all you will get.

Duffman wrote: »

What would the multi-room options be with this setup? Most of the NTL points in the house aren't used but they would still want to be able to watch TV in 2 or 3 rooms simulataneously. Would a box for each room be needed?

Unfortunately, yes, if you want to watch different channels at the same time. Otherwise you could just feed the output of the box to all TVs via co-ax, but ALL TVs will receive the same channel (the one the box is tuned to). Until all TVs start coming with digital tuners built in, then a box will be needed for each TV you wish to watch a seperate digital station on.

Duffman wrote: »

What is the difference between DVB and DTT exactly?

DVB (Digital Video Broadcasting) is a broadcasting standard, basically a set of rules manufacturers must abide by when producing equipment, in order to be DVB compliant. DTT (Digital Terrestrial Television) simply refers to the method of transmission and reception, in your case it's a terrestrial aerial for DTT.

Duffman wrote: »

Finally, sticking with NTL as an alternative, their digital packages are the same cost or even cheaper than analogue. Do their multi-room options include extra digital boxes which attract similar charges to extra analogue points?

You pay the price quoted for digital for one box. For extra points with just analogue, it's about €3 per point, per month. To get extra digital points for digital on a second TV, then you'll need another digital box from them, for which they charge an extra €8.50 per month, per box.

Duffman

Thanks for clarifying all that.

Kensington wrote: »

Until all TVs start coming with digital tuners built in, then a box will be needed for each TV you wish to watch a seperate digital station on.

Will a modern TV with digital tuner currently pick up the four terrestrial channels without a box? I assume plugging a freesat dish in directly doesn't work and the decoder box is still required?

Kensington wrote: »

You pay the price quoted for digital for one box. For extra points with just analogue, it's about €3 per point, per month. To get extra digital points for digital on a second TV, then you'll need another digital box from them, for which they charge an extra €8.50 per month, per box.

The basic UPC digital subscription charge is the same as analogue as far as I can tell. I didn't realise that digital subscribers would continue to receive the analogue signal. Assuming my parents don't switch to another provider or buy a combo box, it appears that they have no reason not to upgrade to digital. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to avoid the additional points charges. This raises the question though, why is analogue only still offered for the same price?

lucernarian

Back to the original topic!!!

Can anyone definitively say that there's no problem with NTL's T&Cs or indeed the law, in paying for one TV point and distributing the signal to 2 or more tellys with an amplifier??

Duffman

Duffman wrote: »

Will a modern TV with digital tuner currently pick up the four terrestrial channels without a box? I assume plugging a freesat dish in directly doesn't work and the decoder box is still required?

If the tuner supports MPEG-4 (H.264) then yes, but most don't. There are some TVs with Freesat tuners such as the Panasonic PZ81 series.

Duffman wrote: »

The basic UPC digital subscription charge is the same as analogue as far as I can tell. I didn't realise that digital subscribers would continue to receive the analogue signal. Assuming my parents don't switch to another provider or buy a combo box, it appears that they have no reason not to upgrade to digital. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to avoid the additional points charges. This raises the question though, why is analogue only still offered for the same price?

The analogue signal is carried in the clear along the same cable so there's no easy way of filtering it out. I'm guessing they are offering basic digital cheaper than analogue to increase demand for digital services and help phase out analogue. However I think it'll be a long time before Dublin cable loses its analogue service.

Mike 1972

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Can anyone definitively say that there's no problem with NTL's T&Cs or indeed the law, in paying for one TV point and distributing the signal to 2 or more tellys with an amplifier??

In theory if you used crappy cable/connectors there could be interference problems from out of band/hyperband TV signals leaking out and interfering with two way radios and wotnot.

In practice given how leaky most of the Dublin cable network is anyway......................

Cupart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Back to the original topic!!!

Can anyone definitively say that there's no problem with NTL's T&Cs or indeed the law, in paying for one TV point and distributing the signal to 2 or more tellys with an amplifier??

Technically, NTL/UPC own the rights of the signal being sent out so I guess they do also own the right to carriage which would mean that you wouldn't be allowed to set up your own points. Seriously, how they are going to check this is another question...

Btw, to the OP:

If you have a newer TV set you should be able to receive DTT in Dublin for the 4 main channel. If you want more you just need any cheap sat receiver and a Quad LNB for 4 seperate TVs/Receivers and that's it... Will cost you less than EUR 150... Cheaper and better than UPC. Besides the most popular channels on UPC are free on 28,2 anyway (i.e. Ch4, E4, More4 etc).

Duffman

Cupart wrote: »

Technically, NTL/UPC own the rights of the signal being sent out so I guess they do also own the right to carriage which would mean that you wouldn't be allowed to set up your own points. Seriously, how they are going to check this is another question...

Yeah, oddly enough they actually own copyright in the signal under Irish law. So sending it around your house or anywhere else without their permission could amount to breach of copyright.

taxidriver22

Cancel the extra points and only pay for the one. Then just split from the one point (paid for) and join to the next point and split and join and so on. What wiring you have internaly is no business of provider. One problem is if you go digital then same channel is seen in all rooms but you will still have analog feed so additional rooms can watch diff analog channels

BostonB

If all you want is the analog around the house. Get FTA satellite and DTT. All legal and no subs. Better quality by far.