What caused this crash?

CarPark

Okay, so before i start, i know that the major factor in this crash was me taking a corner too fast. But just out of interest, i would like to piece together some more details.

Basically, i came into a corner too fast, as i took the corner, the car felt like it was going out of control. Then it started swerving violently from side to side. The steering had no effect on it whatsoever. On a greasy road, i would expect it to go off in one direction, but this was swerving in no relation to the steering wheel.

Eventually it crashed head on into the ditch on the opposite side of the road.
The front of the car is badly damaged, but the back two wheels were out on the road.

When the tow truck came along, the guy said that even if the car was able to move, it wouldn't be safe to drive as the wishbone on the back passenger side was wrecked. He said that it would be impossible to control the car with that. As the impact was head-on, i don't think that the back passenger wish bone could have been damaged by the final crash, so i am wondering if something happened as i rounded the corner that damaged the wishbone, and is this why the steering had no effect on the direction that the car was taking?

Before someone else says it, yes i know i am an arsehole for taking the corner too fast, and possibly putting other people's lives in danger.

I don't know a lot about car mechanics, so if anyone could shed some light on the possible series of events that happened after i rounded the corner, i would really appreciate it.

Don't know if this is relevant, but car is a Ford Focus, 01.

Thanks in advance

Turner

Your speed as you went into the bend.

You can go as fast as you want on straight stretches, but you have to read the limit point of every bend and brake and brake and brake until the limit point starts to open.

Then you have the right speed for the bend.

Advanced driving course techniques (as above) should be part of the driving test in my opinion.

Thoie

AFAIK there's no reason why a front impact can't damage the wishbone (resisting the urge to sing "The wishbone's connected to the..."). It's the same way that a rear impact can suddenly lead to problems up front - the force of the blow travels along the chassis and breaks at the first weak spot it finds.

If you fall, arms outstretched, the palm of your hand is the bit that hits the ground, but you might break your arm in any one of a few different places, up to and including the collar bone.

If the side to side waggling was mostly at the rear, it's possible that you started braking as you realised what was happening, thereby shifting the weight to the front, and leaving the rear end to waggle around. (She said, using technical terms).

Anyway, it's most likely that the wishbone broke on impact, not that it suddenly disintegrated and caused the impact. I reserve the right to be wrong.

peasant

CarPark wrote: »

Then it started swerving violently from side to side. The steering had no effect on it whatsoever. On a greasy road, i would expect it to go off in one direction, but this was swerving in no relation to the steering wheel.

A skid isn't always just leaving the road straight ahead. On a dry-ish road a car doesn't loose traction on all four tyres at the same time, but one by one at different intervals (some tyres may even re-gain traction for a fraction of a second). What happens then is that the sliding side of the vehicle wants to overtake the gripping side and this causes violent changes in direction, depending on remaining grip levels. Some of this jerking around may have been violent enough to break the wishbone ...or maybe you hit something without realising it.

CarPark

Peasant and Thoie, thanks for the explanations, and for not pointing out the obvious (i.e., regardless of wishbone, it wouldn't have happened if i had taken the corner at the appropriate speed). Sounds more likely so that the wishbone did not lead to the violent swerving, but resulted from it in some way (either after impact or due to violent swerving).
The car is destroyed (probably not worth repairing), but i take it as a cheap lesson learnt. If someone had been walking along the road i could be in a very different position today. I drive a lot (>500 miles/week) and have obviously been getting complacent, so it is a good wake up call.

ruane

There's a roundabout at ongar (clonsilla) and nearly every time i'm going around it coming from Clonee and the road is a bit wet/greasy, the back end steps waaay out of line and i got to counter steer full lock left to keep her from 180-ing onto the island. Front wheel drive honda accord, not going fast either. Happpens so often that i experiment with it and consciously go slow and it still spins out.. weird it never happens anywhere else, on any other road or roundabout, just this one. Methinks the road is just ****e - camber, surface, grease etc. Have no other explanation

Caliden

ruane wrote: »

There's a roundabout at ongar (clonsilla) and nearly every time i'm going around it coming from Clonee and the road is a bit wet/greasy, the back end steps waaay out of line and i got to counter steer full lock left to keep her from 180-ing onto the island. Front wheel drive honda accord, not going fast either. Happpens so often that i experiment with it and consciously go slow and it still spins out.. weird it never happens anywhere else, on any other road or roundabout, just this one. Methinks the road is just ****e - camber, surface, grease etc. Have no other explanation

Exact same thing with a roundabout in galway. Even the roads onto the roundabout are greasy and the wheels will even spin in dry weather. It's probably just from the top surface being rubbish and having no grip

Fishtits

Chief--- wrote: »

but you have to read the limit point of every bend and brake and brake and brake until the limit point starts to open.

Then you have the right speed for the bend.

Can you expand a bit in this, what is the "limit point"?

BrianD3

It's very unlikely that the suspension component broke as a result of the swerving or as a result of the frontal impact. It could be that the case that it broke and caused the crash - or perhaps the rear of the car hit something after you lost control. If you get an engineer to examine the car you may find out more - however seeing as nobody was injured and it's an 8 year old car probably best to just leave it.

Dartz

It's possible the whisbone could've hit the kerb/ditch and been snapped. It's also possible that the whisbone failed. Which *can* happen. It's unlikely though.

I'd imagine a suspension failure at high speed would cause a much larger loss of control than simple understeer. From what you describe, what you got was simple understeer.

Which is exactly what happens when you belt into a corner way too fast.

cornbb

Caliden wrote: »

Exact same thing with a roundabout in galway. Even the roads onto the roundabout are greasy and the wheels will even spin in dry weather. It's probably just from the top surface being rubbish and having no grip

Let me guess - its the Kirwan roundabout, the one at the Merriot Hotel on the Headford Road? Specifically the entrance to the roundabout coming from Bothar na dTreabh? http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.287012,-9.043872&spn=0.003406,0.007242&z=17

I thought my tyres were shíte or something until a friend told me his wheels were spinning at the exact same spot every time. Must be the surface as you say.

Sorry about OT

DUBLINHITMAN

@ carpark what type of car is it you crashed front wheel drive' rear' or 4x4 .
if it was a rear wheel your been pushed around the corner when accelerating and fronwheel drive your been pulled around and 4x4 you'd be drifting lol

anyway once your safe m8 and nobody was injured forget about it ' dont dwell cause i crahed a few years ago and its not healthy thinkin about if's and but's .

bushy...

CarPark wrote: »

Don't know if this is relevant, but car is a Ford Focus, 01.

Thanks in advance

Not always the way you were driving but the likes of this go on

for example :

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/expand.asp?uniqueID=E074FBE2B2DE52D080257403004BE3CF&freeText=Blank&tx=

Esel

Fishtits wrote: »

Can you expand a bit in this, what is the "limit point"?

Also called the vanishing point. It's where the two sides of the road ahead appear to meet. If this gets nearer to you, you need to slow down. As it recedes further away from you, you can increase speed.

CarPark

I'd imagine a suspension failure at high speed would cause a much larger loss of control than simple understeer. From what you describe, what you got was simple understeer.

Again, i preface this by saying that my speed is the major factor involved in this crash, but:
I take that corner every day at a similar speed (not anymore obviously).
I have experienced understeer before (not on that corner), and what i experienced on Friday was completely different.
When this happened, the car swerved violently from one side of the road to the other, and steering had no effect on it. The car was completely out of control, and didn't feel like it was going to come back under control until it was stopped by the wall. It was completely different to anything i have ever experienced before. I'm not saying that it was suspension failure for sure, but it felt very different to any understeer i've ever experienced.

seanybiker

good to hear ya didnt hurt yourself. Nothing worse than knowing your going to fast in a corner and looking at the ditch getting closer . Meh could be worse

Mr.David

Have you still got the car? Can you post a picture of the failed wishbone? You could relatively easily determine the failure mode by examining the photo.

CarPark

Have you still got the car? Can you post a picture of the failed wishbone? You could relatively easily determine the failure mode by examining the photo.

Not really. It was towed and is in a garage being assessed.
I wouldn't know a wishbone if it bit me in the face, so wouldn't really be in a good position to take a photo.

RobAMerc

Chief--- wrote: »

Your speed as you went into the bend.

You can go as fast as you want on straight stretches, but you have to read the limit point of every bend and brake and brake and brake until the limit point starts to open.

Then you have the right speed for the bend.

Advanced driving course techniques (as above) should be part of the driving test in my opinion.

esel wrote: »

Also called the vanishing point. It's where the two sides of the road ahead appear to meet. If this gets nearer to you, you need to slow down. As it recedes further away from you, you can increase speed.

Seriously, is this the kind of "advice" thats been given on this site now ? christ !

Look OP - you over cooked it into a bend where the road was a bit greasy. the car understeered wide and from your description as the back came to the greasy bit it too lost traction (maybe as the front regained traction causing the swaying) - from there you continued across the road and onwards through the hedge.

I cannot explain the broken wishbone but it sounds as if its an effect rather than a cause.

Bad luck I would put it down to - but you were probably the only person to do it that day => its more likely your doing sorry.

Fey!

Chief--- wrote: »

Your speed as you went into the bend.

You can go as fast as you want on straight stretches, but you have to read the limit point of every bend and brake and brake and brake until the limit point starts to open.

Then you have the right speed for the bend.

Advanced driving course techniques (as above) should be part of the driving test in my opinion.

esel wrote: »

Also called the vanishing point. It's where the two sides of the road ahead appear to meet. If this gets nearer to you, you need to slow down. As it recedes further away from you, you can increase speed.

RobAMerc wrote: »

Seriously, is this the kind of "advice" thats been given on this site now ? christ !

The advice given is what's taught on advanced driving courses, including the Garda courses.

So, where's the problem?

OP; bad luck, combined with the good luck that there was noone else involved. As you said yourself, it probably came down to complacency.

Mr.David

RobAMerc wrote: »

Seriously, is this the kind of "advice" thats been given on this site now ? christ !

Yes, yes it is...........

Its how you should drive really, its faster, smoother, safer etc. Done properly its a great feeling you get a great flow through a series of bends while it is still very safe and measured.

RobAMerc

Chief--- wrote: »

You can go as fast as you want on straight stretches, but you have to read the limit point of every bend and brake and brake and brake until the limit point starts to open.

This doesn't even make sense.
Firstly - you can go as fast as you want on straight stretches?
You brake and brake and brake ? - Is this kindergarden driving lessons ?
The limit point starts to open up ? - What the hell does that mean and how do I know when it starts to open up ?

Where is there any mention of levels and limits of adhesion ?
Where is there mention of the positioning of the car on the road ?
Where is there any mention of what point you need to get off the brakes before turn in, or explanation of the apex of the bend or at what point to get back on the power ?

they teach alot of great stuff on advanced driving courses - but if this explanation is all the poster got from it they missed a good 80% of what the course was trying to convey.

CarPark

Not to be too egocentric here, but if people are interested in a full discussion on limit points, it might be better to start a new thread.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to write here.
As Fey said, it was my very, very, very good luck that nobody was walking along the road. The incident will cost me ~€2000, but all in all, i got away very light in that i am fine, and i don't have someone else's death on my conscience.

matrixroyal

my brother has an 01 Focus as well and he says he has lost it several times in a tight corner, he has no trust in the car after 1-2 hairy incidents, but he is going to hold on to it now as it makes no sense to try to sell it in this climate.

Drummerboy08

The Focus was one of the best handling cars in its class when launched. The current model is still a class leader when it comes to handling.

No offence to the OP or anyone who has a problem with the Focus, but i would imagine that it is either driver error, or a mechanical failure that causes your brother's Focus to handle funny.

rocknchef

Answer to your question...... your fault.

was your crash on the back roads from Ashbourne to mullhudart by any chance seen a car sticking out a ditch someday last week.

good to hear you have learnt your lesson

CarPark

The Focus was one of the best handling cars in its class when launched. The current model is still a class leader when it comes to handling.

From my own experience (despite the incident on Friday) I would agree. It is a fantastic car, and (apart from Friday) handles really well.

Answer to your question...... your fault.

Thanks, but that isn't an answer to my question. I made it clear from the start that it was my fault. The question related to the sequence of events.

vectra

To answer the OP's initail question I would say the cause was total lack of expereince in this situation.

Thoie

Jesus lads, give him a break. How many times does he have to admit guilt? If he'd come on saying "I'm the bestest driver ever, what did the nasty car do to me?" he might deserve some of the responses, but he didn't. He came on, admitted fault, and asked for some additional information about something he'd never experienced before.

rocknchef

Thoie wrote: »

Jesus lads, give him a break. How many times does he have to admit guilt? If he'd come on saying "I'm the bestest driver ever, what did the nasty car do to me?" he might deserve some of the responses, but he didn't. He came on, admitted fault, and asked for some additional information about something he'd never experienced before.

i wasnt giving any jip.... op asked the ? What caused this crash?

and my answer was simple and honest imo.

Thoie

Sorry all, was a bit cranky earlier. My last post wasn't aimed at any individual. Yes, the title of the post was "What caused the crash?", but I suppose the main question that I actually read from the OP was

... wondering if something happened as i rounded the corner that damaged the wishbone, and is this why the steering had no effect on the direction that the car was taking?

Given the number of times he said he realised that the simple answer to the post title was "The driver", I thought it might be nice for once if people could avoid the obvious, and help him(her?) understand what happened during the crash.

Esel

@RobaMerc: Whatever. A poster mentioned 'limit point'. Another poster asked for an explanation. I gave a brief one, although maybe not brief enough for you. If something here sparks someone's interest enough that they go away and research the topic further, that's a good thing as far as I am concerned.

As a regular reader and occasional poster in this forum, I don't seem to come across pearls of wisdom from you very often. Maybe you could try to be more constructive with your criticism in future?

mobby

Limit Point http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cvam-advanced-riders.co.uk/images/uploaded/images/Tips/vanishing_point.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.cvam-advanced-riders.co.uk/index.php%3Fpage%3Dmain.tips_roadcraft_vanishing&usg=__WNeH1l0UwUlFQb56tw5BaqDoPhs=&h=456&w=289&sz=36&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=yejrQNa8em6PeM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlimit%2Bpoint%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Esel

^ A good link.

A good piece of advice (for bikers more than car drivers) is "Look where you want to go."

(cue RaM comment! )

RobAMerc

esel wrote: »

@RobaMerc: Whatever. A poster mentioned 'limit point'. Another poster asked for an explanation. I gave a brief one, although maybe not brief enough for you. If something here sparks someone's interest enough that they go away and research the topic further, that's a good thing as far as I am concerned.

As a regular reader and occasional poster in this forum, I don't seem to come across pearls of wisdom from you very often. Maybe you could try to be more constructive with your criticism in future?

I think you'll find I post here rarely any more - the level of genuine enthusiasm for cars is limited to 3 - 4 posters at best.
The rest is misguided drivel posted by people with interest in nothing motoring other than merely owning a car.

Drummerboy08

RobAMerc wrote: »

I think you'll find I post here rarely any more - the level of genuine enthusiasm for cars is limited to 3 - 4 posters at best.
The rest is misguided drivel posted by people with interest in nothing motoring other than merely owning a car.

I'd agree wth that. Or most of it anyway.

G1032

cornbb wrote: »

Let me guess - its the Kirwan roundabout, the one at the Merriot Hotel on the Headford Road? Specifically the entrance to the roundabout coming from Bothar na dTreabh? http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.287012,-9.043872&spn=0.003406,0.007242&z=17

I thought my tyres were shíte or something until a friend told me his wheels were spinning at the exact same spot every time. Must be the surface as you say.

Sorry about OT

I have gotten the same wheel spin you describe at that roundabout several times coming from Bothar na dTreabh in 3 or 4 diferent cars. I changed my tyres about 8,000 miles ago to Nokian H (from P6000's) and haven't spun wheels there since. Maybe it's a bit to do with the road and a bit to do with the tyres..............

BostonB

IMO

If part of the suspension failed like a wishbone, most likely it would have pulled car to one side only.

The car wagging from side to side means driver over cooked it.

BostonB

I made the mistake of leaving it late to get tyres prior to the NCT one time and ended up with a set of budget tyres on one car as no one had a decent brand in stock. Car now loses grip all over the place even at slow speeds. Grip is woeful. Never again.

G1032

BostonB wrote: »

I made the mistake of leaving it late to get tyres prior to the NCT one time and ended up with a set of budget tyres on one car as no one had a decent brand in stock. Car now loses grip all over the place even at slow speeds. Grip is woeful. Never again.

Highly recommend Nokian tyres. Got them from eiretyres.ie
The grip is superb with them, even in the wet. Had no grip with the P6000's in the wet..............

beachlife

CarPark wrote: »

Okay, so before i start, i know that the major factor in this crash was me taking a corner too fast. But just out of interest, i would like to piece together some more details.

Basically, i came into a corner too fast, as i took the corner, the car felt like it was going out of control. Then it started swerving violently from side to side. The steering had no effect on it whatsoever. On a greasy road, i would expect it to go off in one direction, but this was swerving in no relation to the steering wheel.

Eventually it crashed head on into the ditch on the opposite side of the road.
The front of the car is badly damaged, but the back two wheels were out on the road.

When the tow truck came along, the guy said that even if the car was able to move, it wouldn't be safe to drive as the wishbone on the back passenger side was wrecked. He said that it would be impossible to control the car with that. As the impact was head-on, i don't think that the back passenger wish bone could have been damaged by the final crash, so i am wondering if something happened as i rounded the corner that damaged the wishbone, and is this why the steering had no effect on the direction that the car was taking?

Before someone else says it, yes i know i am an arsehole for taking the corner too fast, and possibly putting other people's lives in danger.

I don't know a lot about car mechanics, so if anyone could shed some light on the possible series of events that happened after i rounded the corner, i would really appreciate it.

Don't know if this is relevant, but car is a Ford Focus, 01.

Thanks in advance

01 focus? do a search on google (for the usa) i think i remember something about fuel tanks falling off and rear suspension problems

BostonB

Do the US faults carry over to European cars or something. If so do you have links to the same faults on European cars?

http://www.safetyforum.com/fordfocus/

Seven failures of lower control arms that resulted in collapse of the front suspension, causing at least six crashes, in 2000, 2001 and 2002 models.

A failure like that I'd guess would drag the car to one side, not make it start wagging. But I could be wrong.