The Electric Car is coming

BendiBus

From the Indo

The Government and ESB have signed a note of understanding with Renault and Nissan to promote the introduction of electric cars.

It is hoped that ten per cent of all cars on Irish roads by 2020 will be powered by electricity.

Electric cars are expected to be a regular sight on roads around the country within the next two years.

Padraig McManus is the CEO of the ESB.

He said the roll-out of electric cars is now moving up a gear with today's announcement.

Also from the Indo

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/big-switch-over-the-benefits-of--battery-power-1698041.html

Big switch over: the benefits of battery power

• UP to 10pc of all vehicles -- 230,000 -- will be powered by electricity by 2020.
• Motorists who buy an electric vehicle (EV) will not buy the battery, instead they will lease it.
• The cars will run for up to 160km on a full charge.
• They can be re-charged in owners' homes or at on-street charging stations, which will be installed next year.
• It may also be possible to change a depleted battery at service stations for a fully charged one.
• The cost of driving an EV for one year is equivalent to the cost of driving a petrol or diesel-engined car for a month.
• Companies which switch their fleets to electric will be able to write off 100pc of the cost against tax.
• Manufacturers say the cost of purchasing a vehicle will be comparable with the cost of a traditional car.
• Imported EVs incur no VRT. They are also cheaper to tax, costing just €146 per year instead of €172 for the lowest-powered traditional car.

And a Six-One report from Teilifís Éireann

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0403/cars.html

I wonder will I be able to convince my apartment management company, or the ESB, to install recharging points in our carpark?

Jim Martin

China seem to be getting on with it if nobody else is and they stand to make a killing while the rest of the world prevaricates:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/02/china-e6-electric-car

Macha

Environmentally speaking, I'm finding it hard to justify electic cars:

* UP to 10pc of all vehicles -- 230,000 -- will be powered by electricity by 2020.
Only of benefit if the electricity in question is from renewable sources

* Motorists who buy an electric vehicle (EV) will not buy the battery, instead they will lease it.
An environmental benefit?

* The cars will run for up to 160km on a full charge.
Not an environmental benefit, necessarily.

* They can be re-charged in owners' homes or at on-street charging stations, which will be installed next year.
Ditto

* It may also be possible to change a depleted battery at service stations for a fully charged one.
Ditto

* The cost of driving an EV for one year is equivalent to the cost of driving a petrol or diesel-engined car for a month.
Reducing the running costs of private cars? Definitely not a good move.

* Companies which switch their fleets to electric will be able to write off 100pc of the cost against tax.
And the taxpayer is footing some of the bill?

* Manufacturers say the cost of purchasing a vehicle will be comparable with the cost of a traditional car.
No environmental benefit here

* Imported EVs incur no VRT. They are also cheaper to tax, costing just €146 per year instead of €172 for the lowest-powered traditional car.
Why no VRT on imported EVs? Is it a loophole?
Does the lower motor tax apply because the powers that be haven't taken into account the carbon emitted by creating the electricity in the first place?

It seems to me that this really is not the priority in transport right now. Getting freight onto rail and encouraging cycling in urban areas are far more important. Even if every single car were changed to electric in the morning we would still have the following problems:

-cost/use of parking spaces provided by LAs
-congestion/gridlock
-continued encouragement of low density development
-same level of accidents (assuming same number of vehicles)
-where is the energy coming from?

In return for:
-lower carbon emissions (possibly..)
-improved air quality within urban areas

professore

You guys are funny. This will only work if people BUY electric cars. This will only happen when electric cars are

a.) At least as good as ICE cars in range, reliability options etc AND
b.) Cheaper than conventional cars.

or

c.) Way cheaper than conventional cars.

also

d.) The big R needs to end.

and oh yeah

e.) They make an electric SUV that costs more than it's ICE equivalent for the morons out there with more money than sense.

So expect huge extra taxes on conventional cars because I can't see anyone visionary enough to cut taxes and fix prices on electric cars.

silverharp

given that most people wont be buying new cars for years to come, the average age of car should be much higher in a decade or so , lets see what happens then

Cheeble

• UP to 10pc of all vehicles -- 230,000 -- will be powered by electricity by 2020.

I thought at first that this was a very confident prediction, "...will be.." then I noticed that it was, "Up to 10pc...", so it could be 0.1% then?

• It may also be possible to change a depleted battery at service stations for a fully charged one.

With the aid of a fork-lift?

• The cost of driving an EV for one year is equivalent to the cost of driving a petrol or diesel-engined car for a month.

Can anyone provide the numbers on this? It seems unlikely at first sight, but I'm open to persuasion.

• Companies which switch their fleets to electric will be able to write off 100pc of the cost against tax.

Companies can already write off 100% of the cost of ICE against tax, as they can with any other business expense. I assume this refers to some sort of Accelerated Capital Allowance scheme?

• Imported EVs incur no VRT. They are also cheaper to tax, costing just €146 per year instead of €172 for the lowest-powered traditional car.

So that's a saving of €26 per year, hardly enough to excite most CFO's
IMO electric cars will, "...move up a gear..." when they become just as desirable to the average Joe as an ICE car. That's up to the manufacturers, I'm not convinced subsidies are helpful. Nor am I convinced that subsidies are justified unless the industry can prove there's a significant environmental benefit.

In the meantime:
http://www.sei.ie/News_Events/Energy_Show_2009/Visiting/At_the_Show/EHV_Exhibition/Electric_and_Hybrid_Vehicles_Exhibition.html

Cheeble-eers

bobbbb

BendiBus wrote: »

The Electric car is coming

Again ?????

Hoe many times has it been coming now?

BendiBus

taconnol wrote: »

Environmentally speaking, I'm finding it hard to justify electic cars:

* UP to 10pc of all vehicles -- 230,000 -- will be powered by electricity by 2020.
Only of benefit if the electricity in question is from renewable sources

Off peak demand from charging of EV batteries allows increases in the amount of renewables supplying the grid. Clean electricity generation & EVs have a symbiotic relationship Smart metering will strengthen this relationship further.

Does the lower motor tax apply because the powers that be haven't taken into account the carbon emitted by creating the electricity in the first place?

As above, electricity will become cleaner with the widespread adoption of EVs

It seems to me that this really is not the priority in transport right now. Getting freight onto rail and encouraging cycling in urban areas are far more important.

In terms of pollution, I doubt you are correct but I'm willing to be convinced

Even if every single car were changed to electric in the morning we would still have the following problems:

-cost/use of parking spaces provided by LAs
-congestion/gridlock
-continued encouragement of low density development
-same level of accidents (assuming same number of vehicles)

Agreed. This is not a panacea for all our problems.

In return for:
-lower carbon emissions (possibly..)
-improved air quality within urban areas

You left out the big advantage (IMHO) - reduction of our dependence on imported oil from dodgy countries. From an economic & security point of view, this is critical.

We have the resources to supply our own energy if we can bring about a change in the nature of demand for energy. EVs would be a huge step forward.

BendiBus

Cheeble wrote: »

With the aid of a fork-lift?

No details here I'm sorry to say, but it does suggest a 3 minute automated swap has been designed.

http://www.betterplace.com/our-bold-plan/how-it-works/battery-exchange-stations

Macha

BendiBus wrote: »

Off peak demand from charging of EV batteries allows increases in the amount of renewables supplying the grid. Clean electricity generation & EVs have a symbiotic relationship Smart metering will strengthen this relationship further.

Hadn't thought of that

BendiBus wrote: »

In terms of pollution, I doubt you are correct but I'm willing to be convinced.

Admittedly, I'm not just looking at it from a purely carbon emissions point of view.

BendiBus wrote: »

You left out the big advantage (IMHO) - reduction of our dependence on imported oil from dodgy countries. From an economic & security point of view, this is critical.

Ah...true, (also more security on the price of this energy), but again, this depends on the fuel mix of the electricity used. But considering your initial point that EVs co-exist very well with renewable electricity, I can definitely see your point.

dlofnep

taconnol wrote: »

* The cost of driving an EV for one year is equivalent to the cost of driving a petrol or diesel-engined car for a month.
Reducing the running costs of private cars? Definitely not a good move.

Why on earth is reducing the running costs of a car not a good move? Do you know how expensive it is to drive a car? I'm sure you can get around everywhere on your push-bike, but some of us have long distances to travel and the cost is immense as it stands.

congo_90

does this count? http://www.teslamotors.com/

astrofool

A large power station is many many many many many times more efficient than an ICE when it comes to generating power. The environmental benefit of moving power generation from each car to a single plant (even if coal powered) is absolutely f*cking huge.

The oil crisis of the 70's moved power stations away from oil, the crisis of 2007/2008 will remove it as a means of transport. The middle east is getting very worried about these developments, and have already been threatening to reduce their output if countries keep pursuing greener policies.

Macha

dlofnep wrote: »

Why on earth is reducing the running costs of a car not a good move? Do you know how expensive it is to drive a car? I'm sure you can get around everywhere on your push-bike, but some of us have long distances to travel and the cost is immense as it stands.

It has been proven that decreasing the running costs of cars encourages more frequent use. In case you hadn't noticed, we have a problem in Ireland with too many people using their cars.

Cheeble

astrofool wrote: »

A large power station is many many many many many times more efficient than an ICE when it comes to generating power. The environmental benefit of moving power generation from each car to a single plant (even if coal powered) is absolutely f*cking huge.

Can I respectfully refer you to the, "Quality of debate on this forum," thread?

Cheeble-eers

tashkurgan

This is indeed a Project Better Place initiative which will incorporate battery swap out stations. Israel, Portugal (possible), Denmark, Canada and others have all signed up for this. Its not simply providing cars. Thats far too simplistic. Its the provision of single phase & three phase battery charging and swap out stations in conjunction with the development of whole new range of cars. Renault/Nissan (same company really) are providing the cars and some of the infrastructure components. The first car for this program is the Megane (its already running by the way).

A huge amount of work has gone into this program as well as shed loads of money. Ireland's challenges are a lack of solar (most of the other countries have abundant solar, well more than we have anyway) and a huge road network (for the size of country we are).

BYD and Tesla do not use battery swap out technology and you can take their range calculations (especially that of BYD) with a tonne of salt. You could see other motor adopting this technology as more countries sign up to it.

lostexpectation

how long willl it take to charge the cars coming out next year?

tashkurgan

lostexpectation wrote: »

how long willl it take to charge the cars coming out next year?

Not sure what cars you mean but in it does differ by car/manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised by something like 15-20 mins for 3 phase, 4-6 hours for single phase or 3-4 mins for battery swap out. But it all depends on the manufacturer and battery technology used. Not everyone is equipping their cars for 3 phase nor are they all signing up for battery swap out (Tesla are showing some interest in swap out as well).

Those batteries are VERY heavy.

djpbarry

taconnol wrote: »

Ah...true, (also more security on the price of this energy), but again, this depends on the fuel mix of the electricity used. But considering your initial point that EVs co-exist very well with renewable electricity, I can definitely see your point.

Also important to remember that electric motors are more efficient than ICE's. Electric and hybrid vehicles also have the advantage of energy "capture" mechanisms, such as regenerative braking.

[SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE] BUY A TESLA ROADSTER [/SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE]

robtri

djpbarry wrote: »

Also important to remember that electric motors are more efficient than ICE's. Electric and hybrid vehicles also have the advantage of energy "capture" mechanisms, such as regenerative braking.

[SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE] BUY A TESLA ROADSTER [/SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE]

yes but it must be remembered that building hybrid cars and the batteries is a lot more damaging to the enviroment that tradional ICE cars....

and hybrids are not neccerarily more efficient thatn ICE's... example is the top gear challenge... they put a toyota hybrid on their track and had it do a lap in it, they followed the hybrid with a sports car an M3 ( this is 4.0L V8 420BHP rocket). The M3 was to keep up with the prius all around the track...
at the end of the lap the ICE M3 had a better MPG than the toyota....
the reason being the M3 hardly struggled around the track...
its not what you drive, its how you drive.........

djpbarry

robtri wrote: »

yes but it must be remembered that building hybrid cars and the batteries is a lot more damaging to the enviroment that tradional ICE cars....

Is it? How so?

robtri wrote: »

and hybrids are not neccerarily more efficient thatn ICE's... example is the top gear challenge...

In fairness, I wouldn't trust Jeremy Clarkson to design a 'balanced' experiment for the purpose of testing electric vehicles; his dislike of all things ‘alternative’ or ‘green’ is well known.

lostexpectation

tashkurgan wrote: »

Not sure what cars you mean but in it does differ by car/manufacturer.

the ones involved in this deal, so if you want to charge up you going have to spend 20 mins at a station

tashkurgan

lostexpectation wrote: »

the ones involved in this deal, so if you wnat ot charge up you going have to spend 20 mins at a station

If you want to charge the Megane with 3-phase you are probably looking at something in the 15-20min range (those batteries get HOT). But the idea is that there will be charging stations dotted (sorry strategically) around the country.

Youtube clip of Shai Agassi tooling around in am electric megane can be found here http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/20/project-better-place-using-ac-propulsion-drivetrain-ranault-meg/

This will all be pretty different.

lostexpectation

so are they going to integrate the battery swopping into the carwash??

how mcuh will it cost to swop a battery?

netwhizkid

I wonder will there be much of a range on these future electric cars as I sometimes drive 100miles a day (600 miles was my record) and I some how cannot see the batteries lasting that long.

I read somewhere a while back (New Scientist mag IIRC) that new electric car technology based on mega capacitors rather than normal batteries will shake up the industry and give it the edge it needs to get going. Otherwise something like a small diesel or petrol engine spinning a turbine to keep the battery charged would be needed powering it on BioDiesel or Ethanol would offset the Carbon Dioxide emmisions making it neutral.

Imagine having a solar panel on your roof charging batteries which in turn charge your car by night, no emissions or fuel tax.... which leads me to the next question will there be a new electric tax to offset the losses of taxation revenue once we abandon Petroleum for good. Getting the likes of BMW and Ferrari to make some nice electric cars would really help the PR of the whole thing compare to the bubble cars we see now which is not great for the average consumers perception of them. I guess it will also be the end of the Manual gearbox as clutches and gearsets would not work too good with Electric motors I suppose.

I think that the oil crash and associated Economic disaster related to it will create a new green savvy more caring world which will see the Phoenix rise once again from the ashes!

robtri

djpbarry wrote: »

Is it? How so?

ohh come on, surely you can't be so naive....
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14304
Consider:

• The nickel contained in the Prius' battery is mined and smelted at a plant in Ontario that has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers.
• Dubbed the Superstack, the factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist's nightmare.
• Acid rain around the area was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside, according to Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin.
• After leaving the plant, the nickel travels to Europe, China, Japan and United States, a hardly environmentally sound round the world trip for a single battery.

But that isn't even the worst part, says the Record. According to a study by CNW Marketing, the total combined energy to produce a Prius (consisting of electrical, fuel, transportation, materials and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime), is greater than what it takes to produce a Hummer:

• The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles -- the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
• The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles.
• That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use almost 50 percent less combined energy doing it.

djpbarry wrote: »

In fairness, I wouldn't trust Jeremy Clarkson to design a 'balanced' experiment for the purpose of testing electric vehicles; his dislike of all things ‘alternative’ or ‘green’ is well known.

so we can ignore, stuff put forward if we don't like the source.... how biased are you???
it was just to show that driving habits have a huge impact on energy efficieny and don't believe the hype about these hybrid cars..


Ohhh by the way, why would any average joe soap want to buy a tesla....

djpbarry

netwhizkid wrote: »

I wonder will there be much of a range on these future electric cars as I sometimes drive 100miles a day (600 miles was my record) and I some how cannot see the batteries lasting that long.

Well according to the article in the OP, a range of 160km is achievable. But I don’t think long-distance drivers are the target Market for electric cars, at least not in the short-term.

djpbarry

robtri wrote: »

ohh come on, surely you can't be so naive....
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=14304

:rolleyes: Says the guy linking to the NCPA website.

robtri wrote: »

[*]The nickel contained in the Prius' battery is mined and smelted at a plant in Ontario that has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers.
[*]Dubbed the Superstack, the factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist's nightmare.
[*]Acid rain around the area was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside, according to Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin.

This is all very misleading; I suggest you read up on the city of Sudbury, Ontario. Unwise to take an article from a student-produced university publication at face value.

But anyway, this is somewhat beside the point. This thread is concerned with electric cars in general, rather than once particular hybrid. Generalising electric cars based on one particular model is no more accurate than generalising ICE’s based on the performance of a Hummer.

robtri wrote: »

so we can ignore, stuff put forward if we don't like the source.... how biased are you???

No, but we should certainly question the source, shouldn’t we?

robtri wrote: »

Ohhh by the way, why would any average joe soap want to buy a tesla....

I don’t know. Why do you ask?

robtri

djpbarry wrote: »

:rolleyes: Says the guy linking to the NCPA website.
This is all very misleading; I suggest you read up on the city of Sudbury, Ontario. Unwise to take an article from a student-produced university publication at face value.

But anyway, this is somewhat beside the point. This thread is concerned with electric cars in general, rather than once particular hybrid. Generalising electric cars based on one particular model is no more accurate than generalising ICE’s based on the performance of a Hummer.
No, but we should certainly question the source, shouldn’t we?
I don’t know. Why do you ask?

you didn't question the source, you dismissed the results because you don't like J.C. views on the enviroment..

Mining materials for batteries is enviromentally damaging... can you show me otherwise??? please do...
as a hybrid car is in general the same as an ICe car, (wheels, metal panelling, engine, seats carpets ect) the only realy differnce is the addition of batteries, therefore unless making batteries has no effect on the enviroment at all, hybrid cars are more damaging to the enviroment to make....

I didn't state anything about electric cars, I only mentioned hybrids and used the prius as an example... nothing wrong with that...


you mentioned in your response earlier, buy a telsa... so I asked you why??
why should joe soap buy a telsa...
what would motivate joe soap to buy one, you proposed buying them..

robtri

djpbarry wrote: »

:rolleyes: Says the guy linking to the NCPA website.
This is all very misleading; I suggest you read up on the city of Sudbury, Ontario. Unwise to take an article from a student-produced university publication at face value.

ok I took your advice since you had no links....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Sudbury

and this tells me nothing??? so whats your point...

since you once again dismissing an article brought to your attention because you don't like the source... instead of bringing a valid argument to the table...

how about this article:

http://theguardsman.com/2009/03/no-magic-bullet-the-pros-and-cons-of-green-cars

tashkurgan

lostexpectation wrote: »

so are they going to integrate the battery swopping into the carwash??

how mcuh will it cost to swop a battery?

Well here is the big deal. You will be leasing the batteries. You won't own them. Note: this is for Project Better Place only as far as I know. I don't know if the PBP charging units will charge the other EVs like the Mitsu iMev (the iMev does not have a swap out battery system).

So the future landscape could look like:
+ Trad ICE diesel and petrol
+ Hybrid petrol (Honda Insight, current and next gen Prius which are parallel hybrids)
+ Hybrid diesel (LR LRX and Peugeot something)
+ Project Better Place swap-out EVs (Meganes etc)
+ EVs (iMev)
+ Range extenders like Chevy Volt

and

of course

the Hydrogen powered Honda FCX

There are going to be some big winners and some awfully big losers in the car business.

djpbarry

robtri wrote: »

you didn't question the source, you dismissed the results because you don't like J.C. views on the enviroment..

I didn’t dismiss it, I questioned it. I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t really expect a Toyota Prius to perform particularly well on a race track against a sports car.

robtri wrote: »

Mining materials for batteries is enviromentally damaging...

Sure, mining is damaging to the environment; I’m not disputing that.

robtri wrote: »

as a hybrid car is in general the same as an ICe car, (wheels, metal panelling, engine, seats carpets ect) the only realy differnce is the addition of batteries…

Conventional ICE vehicles don’t have batteries? Lead-acid and nickel-cadmium batteries?

robtri wrote: »

you mentioned in your response earlier, buy a telsa... so I asked you why??

It was a joke; you’ll not the use of the (humorous) BBCode tags.

robtri wrote: »

how about this article:

http://theguardsman.com/2009/03/no-magic-bullet-the-pros-and-cons-of-green-cars

Seems a bit more balanced, although they still make the same link between the Prius and Sudbury. Allow me to draw your attention to the link in the ‘comments’ section below the article.

tashkurgan

djpbarry wrote: »

Well according to the article in the OP, a range of 160km is achievable. But I don’t think long-distance drivers are the target Market for electric cars, at least not in the short-term.

Well, this is going to be tricky. Standard city car type EVs like the iMev will be in the region of 40Km to 60Km. Enough to do the normal commute only. The 'thinking' is that you have a diesel estate at home for the long runs to the country at weekends or on hols. If you live in mainland Europe, the range is fine as it will bring you to an SNCF station where you can pick up a train etc etc (a kind of hub and spoke plan).

Range extenders like the Volt will have longer range but can run on their lit ions for about 40km after that they will run on reduced power using the serial ICE over longer distances.

Battery swap out will have longer range than small city car EVs but will need to replace their batteries probably in the region of 100+km.. (a guess on my part).