Do you work in the industry?

towel401

anonymous poll incase anyone's ashamed to admit they actually work for these scummers

by industry i mean the mobile phone manufacturers, mobile phone operators, wireless and fixed line communications companies, retail stores that sell mostly mobile phones or any company whose main customers are the above.

i think this might go a long way to explain the rabid fanboyism that goes on here and why so many agree with the mobile phone company for charging some old sod a ridiculous amount for spending the day facebooking and youtoobing while roaming abroad.

ya just don't meet these people in real life. most people hate mobile phone companies but here it's like, 'damn straight, ****er should have read the font size 0 text on the back of his contract! +1 for meteor/voda/o2, hope they use the money from the sale of his house to buy champagne for the staff!'

Sam Vimes

towel401 wrote: »

why so many agree with the mobile phone company for charging some old sod a ridiculous amount for spending the day facebooking and youtoobing while roaming abroad.

To be clear, we don't agree with them charging a ridiculous amount, in fact we'd be delighted if they dropped the price. We just disagree with someone using a service when they have no idea of the cost and then complaining about it afterwards. You wouldn't call China without checking the price first and you shouldn't use the internet without checking the price either

Blue_Wolf

Sam Vimes wrote: »

To be clear, we don't agree with them charging a ridiculous amount, in fact we'd be delighted if they dropped the price. We just disagree with someone using a service when they have no idea of the cost and then complaining about it afterwards. You wouldn't call China without checking the price first and you shouldn't use the internet without checking the price either

+1 Buyer beware, you have to ask all the questions, can't expect salesperson to tell you everything. You can't use it for something ie roaming etc and than complain "I didn't know it was going to cost that much". See so many people who buy something, use it, than return it because it doesn't have the specs you were looking for. Ask before you buy. Can't return used goods unless it's faulty OR if it was mis-sold to you, as in you were told it would do this and that and it actually doesn't.

Tom Dunne

towel401 wrote: »

anonymous poll incase anyone's ashamed to admit they actually work for these scummers

Please refrain from using language like that. Not only does it undermine any subsequent points you make, it is also insulting to those that work in the industry.

towel401 wrote: »

why so many agree with the mobile phone company for charging some old sod a ridiculous amount for spending the day facebooking and youtoobing while roaming abroad.

Are you serious? Do you really actually believe people agree with the extortionate data rates charged by mobile operators while roaming?

towel401 wrote: »

most people hate mobile phone companies but here it's like, 'damn straight, ****er should have read the font size 0 text on the back of his contract! +1 for meteor/voda/o2, hope they use the money from the sale of his house to buy champagne for the staff!'

I presume you are referring to people like me who can't fathom why people don't make themselves aware of charges before they are charged?

That doesn't mean I agree with mobile phone company's policies, nor does it mean I am any kind of fanboy. However, if we were talking about the iPhone, well that would be a different matter.

blaz

Disclaimer: I work in the industry (not mobile though).

Why people don't learn about the charges upfront? Because the marketing and sales teams of the mobile operators do their best to make the information as hard to find as possible.

Can anybody show me a single mobile operator web page, that would list ALL the charges for a particular plan on a single page, without having to click anything? And I mean ALL charges: national, international (for all possible destinations) and premium calls, national and international texts, data charges of all types, roaming charges of all types (calling any country while roaming in any country), etc.

The only one that actually comes close is 3, who have a PDF listing most of the charges, but you have to do a thorough search to actually find that PDF on their web page.

Of course you can call the customer service of the operator, but they will only tell you exactly what you have asked them. If you don't know that there are charges for a particular service or that some particular service type is actually charged separately, you can't ask.

I'll try to illustrate this with an analogy: it is like driving down the M50 without knowing that there is a toll charge for it and the M50 would not have any signs telling you that there are charges. Does this mean you would have to call the road authority every time you went down some unknown road to verify if there are any charges for that particular road? If the roads were like mobile phone service, the answer would certainly be YES...

Sam Vimes

It would be very difficult to read them all on the same page. The o2 and meteor websites are very easy to navigate and you can get pretty much every charge with maybe 3 clicks but the vodafone website is a maze. When I worked in a phone shop I had to call customer care once or twice because I couldn't find something after about ten minutes searching.

blaz

My previous (non-Irish) mobile operator had a very nice page, that listed all types of charges on a single page. The pricing itself wasn't neccesarily on the same page, but at least the types of charges were listed on the same page with easy links to the pricing for each type.

Now let's pretend we're the customer of an Irish operator.

Vodafone:

You visit www.vodafone.ie. On the first page you see "Plans and Costs". Click on Prepay. Click on "Current Prepay Plans". You actually have to read that whole page to understand the national rates as there are important little details hidden in there (like having to top up by 20 € to get free calls to Vodafone customers). For international rates there is a small link hidden down there. But at the bottom of that page is yet another link to yet another page with international call charges. So which one is it? Next you want to see data charges. You've read the whole prepaid charges page but you don't see it. Oh yeah, you have to look on the left side under "Other charges". But that still doesn't get you the data charges. You once again have to scroll down and the bottom of the page you click on a link that brings up "Mobile Internet" charges. But wait, there is "Mobile Internet" and there is "Data" charges. Which is which? Most here probably know, but I'm sure this is confusing as hell for the average customer. A total of 5 convoluted clicks to get the Mobile Internet charges.

O2:

You visit www.o2online.ie. Here is your first problem. There is no obvious link for price plans. You have to click on "Shop" which and then look on the left side of the screen for "Price Plans". You click on "Speak Easy Plans". You click "Get O2 Experience Plus" (why should I "get" it? I just want to know the pricing!). This brings up the national charges. Below them you have two tiny (non obvious) links to "Other charges" and "International charges". You click on it, but there are no Data Charges there. Ah, there is a link on the left side (but you have to find it, it is not obvious). This finally brings up the data charges. A total of 6 convoluted clicks to get Mobile Internet charges.

Meteor:
You visit www.meteor.ie and find "Plans and Services" on first page. Here is you first problem, you want the pricing, but it lists "Free Talk and Text for life", "Free texts to any network", etc. Oh, so everything is free or what? Ah, you actually have to click on the "Pay as you go" icon. Again, lots of nonsense listed. Ah, you have to look on the left side of the screen (why? my focus was in the middle of the screen). You click on the tiny "Price plans" on the left. This lists the national charges, but there are lots of little stars next to the prices that tell you there is a minimum call charge of 9c. Again not too obvious. But where are my data charges? Maybe under "Other call costs"? Indeed, there are data charges on that page, but you have to scroll all the way down. A total of 4 convoluted clicks to get Mobile Internet charges.

3:
A nice link to "Priceplans" available on www.three.ie. So where are the charges? Most of the page is covered by an ad for Best of both. "Explore price plans" is available on the right hand side (why? my focus was in the middle of the page, where the ad is located...). I click on "More info on 3Pay". Again 80% of the page is covered with ads, the national pricing is actually at the bottom of the page. But where are data charges or international charges? Not listed anywhere. You have to click on "Add ons" (how do you know it is an Add-on? You don't). Then click on "3Pay Customers" and "Internet on your mobile" and here you learn you have to pay another 10 € to get your mobile internet charges. A total of 5 convoluted clicks to get Mobile Internet charges.



I think this gets my point across...

Davy

blaz wrote: »

O2:

You visit www.o2online.ie. Here is your first problem. There is no obvious link for price plans. You have to click on "Shop" which and then look on the left side of the screen for "Price Plans". You click on "Speak Easy Plans". You click "Get O2 Experience Plus" (why should I "get" it? I just want to know the pricing!). This brings up the national charges. Below them you have two tiny (non obvious) links to "Other charges" and "International charges". You click on it, but there are no Data Charges there. Ah, there is a link on the left side (but you have to find it, it is not obvious). This finally brings up the data charges. A total of 6 convoluted clicks to get Mobile Internet charges.

4 clicks. Use explore services, plans, speakeasy, data pricing

Random

My first reaction earlier was to just lock this thread and tell the OP where to go with his seemingly provocative questions which seemed to lack any real experience. I'm happy to see this thread may turn into a healthy debate.

I don't work in the industry myself. I did in a past life though.

I agree that operators push the benefits of their plans and the cheap pricing and don't advertise the expensives bits. Why not? This is apparent in all industrys.

I agree that the O2 and Vodafone websites are horrible in general and hard to navigate but not being able to find the information without a minute searching really isn't much of an excuse for running up a 10000EUR data roaming bill. You went looking for the charge and gave up without finding the answer and just said to yourself you'd complain after. Life doesn't work like this.

The guy who mentioned the M50 ... I don't think that's a fair analogy. What it's like is you driving down a toll road and not checking the price beforehand and then complaining after. (The M50 doesn't actually give the pricing in time for you to make a decision and avoid it .. but that's for another thread ...).

I'll agree that there are (in my experience) a lot of uneducated sales people in the industry and a number of ruthless sales people who will tell you anything to a. get rid of you or b. sell you a product. Again this is all industrys though. I disagree with the practice though.

To Summarise - unless you are told one price and it turns out to be another then you have not done your research on the service you are using. Tough cookies.

Sam Vimes

I think you're making mountains out of mole hills here blaz tbh. For example on meteor's site you click:

pay as you go->Price plans->other call costs

on o2:
Explore services->Price plans->speakeasy->other call charges

on vodafone:
plans and costs->pre pay->other charges

It might not all be on one page but it's fairly intuitive and not that difficult to find. It's hardly hidden

blaz

I believe European legislation demands that pricing is clearly displayed for all goods and services. My personal opinion is that this is currently not the case with mobile services in Ireland. Not making pricing information easily (and obviously) available is roughly the same as providing misleading information, because the customer does not have the details he needs to make an informed decision.

I agree that there are a lot of ignorant customers out there who just blindly use a service and later complain about the charges, but on the other hand mobile operators don't make it easy for customers to see what the charges actually are.

There is a thin line between trying to sell a product and duping the customer by hiding imporant information about the product. I believe Irish mobile operators are walking very close to that thin line.

Sam Vimes

blaz wrote: »

There is a thin line between trying to sell a product and duping the customer by hiding imporant information about the product. I believe Irish mobile operators are walking very close to that thin line.

You can get the information in three clicks ffs! do you want it in big dancing, flashing letters on the front page?

Davy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You can get the information in three clicks ffs! do you want it in big dancing, flashing letters on the front page?

Just put everything on one single page,, then their can be no excuse!

Random

Davy wrote: »

Just put everything on one single page,, then their can be no excuse!

Most people want to know the basic pricing. How much does it cost to call or text my mate on another network. Most people aren't interested in the cost of premium rate services, dial up WAP, directory enquirys etc.

It doesn't make sense to assume because the charges for the service you're using (i.e. data) isn't listed on the main page that it's free. "Other call charges" can be found very easily and if you asked .. you'd find out also.

Davy

i wasn't being serious

I think the sites are fine, nothing major really. I think vodafones is the worst

Mr. Frost

blaz wrote: »

I believe European legislation demands that pricing is clearly displayed for all goods and services.

Show me where it says it has to be clearly displayed on one page. :rolleyes:

blaz

Mr. Frost, now you're clearly thinking like your average sales guy. By your logic I could take my pricing information, put it in a box and bury it in the Irish sea and still say its easily accessible...

Anybody who doesn't believe that the current pricing information for Irish mobile operators is difficult to find, talk to a non technical friend and tell him to find the pricing information for data pricing for a particular tariff on a mobile operator they don't know. Don't answer any questions they have in the process. Time how long it takes and report the results here.

Random

blaz wrote: »

Mr. Frost, now you're clearly thinking like your average sales guy. By your logic I could take my pricing information, put it in a box and bury it in the Irish sea and still say its easily accessible...

Anybody who doesn't believe that the current pricing information for Irish mobile operators is difficult to find, talk to a non technical friend and tell him to find the pricing information for data pricing for a particular tariff on a mobile operator they don't know. Don't answer any questions they have in the process. Time how long it takes and report the results here.

Want to know how much data pricing is and can't be bothered to look through stuff? Just dial customer care. Simple as. Not knowing the price is not an excuse for running up an insane bill. It's just plane and simple stupid to signup for a bill service (in any industry) without checking what things are going to cost as you use them.

blaz

Random wrote: »

Most people want to know the basic pricing. How much does it cost to call or text my mate on another network. Most people aren't interested in the cost of premium rate services, dial up WAP, directory enquirys etc.

That's exactly my point. The most common information is mostly easy to find (heck, it is usually placated all over the city in ads). Because you're prominently displaying the most used pricing, you're "hiding" the other charges.

Users might not be aware that calling directory enquiry is more expensive than a regular fixed line call or that dial up WAP is charged by the minute or that calls to 1590 numbers are extremely expensive or that calls to 1850/1890 numbers are not charged from their inclusive minutes, so why should they search for pricing information if they are not even aware that there is special pricing for those services in the first place?

You know about all those charges because you're involved in the mobile phone industry while your average user is just ignorant about the little details. How much do you know about gas and electricity pricing?

Random

blaz wrote: »

That's exactly my point. The most common information is mostly easy to find (heck, it is usually placated all over the city in ads). Because you're prominently displaying the most used pricing, you're "hiding" the other charges.

Users might not be aware that calling directory enquiry is more expensive than a regular fixed line call or that dial up WAP is charged by the minute or that calls to 1590 numbers are extremely expensive or that calls to 1850/1890 numbers are not charged from their inclusive minutes, so why should they search for pricing information if they are not even aware that there is special pricing for those services in the first place?

You know about all those charges because you're involved in the mobile phone industry while your average user is just ignorant about the little details. How much do you know about gas and electricity pricing?

I don't pay gas + electricity so don't know a huge amount about them. If I did pay though you can bet your ass I'd know how I was being charged and how much.

parsi

Over the past few weeks I've had occasion to visit the websites of the various mobile operators in Ireland, UK, France and Luxembourg in my quest to find which operator offers the best mobile internet rate.

It was a maze - they all are fairly clear on their call/sms costs but mobile intenet pricing is buried in all sorts of odd corners and the data roaming costs are nigh invisible.

I don't agree that you should have to ring up Customer Care if for no other reason than having a screenshot is always better than "yer man told me".

Vodafone IE had to be the worst for navigation. Their links link to other links and finding roaming info is very hard (they feel that Passport is enough). Tango and LuxGSM sites were brutal - VOX was good but uninformative. In France the Orange site was best.

Vodafone have the best mobile PAYG internet option that allows roaming (99c - 50MB anywhere in Ireland or Europe) but finding out that it's such good value is a bloody chore - it ultimately says that its valid in any country in which they have a 3G or GPRS agreement but this _precise_ list is hard to find.

(3s offer is great but doesn't roam where I want it)