cost for plans

kildub

hi,

would anyone have any idea of cost of drawing up plans for a 40sqm extension involving 2 walls, pitched roof with 1 hip fitting into the corner groove of an existing L shaped bungalow. it's planned to use timber frame and concrete slab facing.

i don't have the plans/elevations for the original structure and don't know if it's possible to get them. C.C. won't release without original architect's permission and i don't even know if he/she is still around.

any idea on costs of plans would be great.

thanks.:)

focus_mad

kildub wrote: »

hi,

would anyone have any idea of cost of drawing up plans for a 40sqm extension involving 2 walls, pitched roof with 1 hip fitting into the corner groove of an existing L shaped bungalow. it's planned to use timber frame and concrete slab facing.

i don't have the plans/elevations for the original structure and don't know if it's possible to get them. C.C. won't release without original architect's permission and i don't even know if he/she is still around.

any idea on costs of plans would be great.

thanks.:)

Howrya... the plans your talking about if it is for planning permission can cost in between 1300 and 3000 euros depending on who is drawing the plans up. anyone can do plans on AutoCAD once they are capable of using it fully..

Thats what i'v been told in my Building Surveying Course in college anyway.

zelemon

kildub wrote: »

hi,

would anyone have any idea of cost of drawing up plans for a 40sqm extension involving 2 walls, pitched roof with 1 hip fitting into the corner groove of an existing L shaped bungalow. it's planned to use timber frame and concrete slab facing.

i don't have the plans/elevations for the original structure and don't know if it's possible to get them. C.C. won't release without original architect's permission and i don't even know if he/she is still around.

any idea on costs of plans would be great.

thanks.:)

Hi there,

I am an architect who does extensions for 3-800 euros, a survey will be needed which will increase costs but it would still come to less than 800.
You do realiase that if the extension is to the rear of the house & can be kept just under the 40sq/m then you won't catually need planning!

DM

r-i-tect

zelemon wrote: »

Hi there,

I am an architect who does extensions for 3-800 euros, a survey will be needed which will increase costs but it would still come to less than 800.
You do realiase that if the extension is to the rear of the house & can be kept just under the 40sq/m then you won't catually need planning!

DM

3-800 euro??
PI insurance and RIAI registration must be low these days.

zelemon

r-i-tect wrote: »

3-800 euro??
PI insurance and RIAI registration must be low these days.

We took an excetutive decision to offer these prices as we can work fast enough not to make a (substantial) loss, we also felt that it was important to do everything we can to keep our people in work, remarkably our job numbers are not down!
These are lean times & I feel a lot of Architects are not going to surive as they have developed "the small job" complex! We are willing to offer a professional service at costs tailored to the current economic climate, we dont make much but we are in operation & that is the most important of all!

Mellor

zelemon wrote: »

Hi there,

I am an architect who does extensions for 3-800 euros, a survey will be needed which will increase costs but it would still come to less than 800.
You do realiase that if the extension is to the rear of the house & can be kept just under the 40sq/m then you won't catually need planning!

DM

This post really worries me.
I'd have my doubts as to if you are a real architect or just working as one. No practise could do it for $300. Even a nixer would push it. Also your last line is very wrong and misleading.



To the OP, the cost of plans will depend on alot, a major factor is planning premission and if it is required. There are much more factors than listed above, If planning is not required, then it will save paperwork (which saves you money). It might also allow some drawings to be ommitted.

Get in touch with a local arch tech, actually a few and get quotes. You'll be better equipped from there to make a decision.

lods

Mellor wrote: »

This post really worries me.
I'd have my doubts as to if you are a real architect or just working as one. No practise could do it for $300. Even a nixer would push it. Also your last line is very wrong and misleading.



To the OP, the cost of plans will depend on alot, a major factor is planning premission and if it is required. There are much more factors than listed above, If planning is not required, then it will save paperwork (which saves you money). It might also allow some drawings to be ommitted.

Get in touch with a local arch tech, actually a few and get quotes. You'll be better equipped from there to make a decision.

i would have thought with all the architects out of work, it could be done for under 800euros.

Mellor

Possibably under 800, as a nixer, putting it through the books adds cost,
but if somebody offers it for under 300, then i'd run a mile. The extra few hundred you save here will be paid back ten fold down the line due to rushed work

Chris Arch

lods wrote: »

i would have thought with all the architects out of work, it could be done for under 800euros.

Let's make some calculations here:

PI Insurance: Minimum of 800Euros per year
Old CAD (2000): 500Euros
Plotter A2 (second hand) : 300Euro
Ink: Approx 0.25 Euro per drawing
Paper (A2): Approx 0.25 Euro per Drawing
Fees per hour: 15 Euro minimum
Number of hours: 30 to 60 including survey (depending on details and quality)

Drawings are not eveything there are also newspaper and site notice to add to the work and expenses as well as submitting the application, answering the planning form, buying the OS Map. Building specifications and construction Design are also important if you want to insure the compliance with Building Regulation and prevent your builder to cut the corners. Site inspections from your architect are a good idea if you want to have someone to defend your interests against the builder's interests during construction...

300euros for some drawings for an extension this is a Joke... Some people also put a garden shed in their garden and they call it an office... But can we realy compare?

ba

Should an extension to the rear of a domestic house be 40sqm or less, planning permission is not required. Only a commencement notice for construction need to be submitted. The building does not even need to be registered in the local planning office. So it is very simple for an architect to provide these plans, an experienced student can tackle such, as i could easily.

you are correct, 300eur is probably too little.

i assume the OP has made arrangements with a builder? As he/she is already familiar with construction...

OP, as the plans for your house are copyright to the Architect responsible, you will need permission from him/her to get a copy. These drawings would be helpful in case you were planning on removing walls etc.

raja1

i would have thought with all the architects out of work, it could be done for under 800euros.

Chris Arch

raja1 wrote: »

i would have thought with all the architects out of work, it could be done for under 800euros.

That maybe true in India... But in Ireland architects stil have to pay their PI Insurance, their rent or mortgages... Unless your architect has another activity to pay his/her bills, or unless he/she does not produce a full design, I do not see how 800euros can be enough to design a 40 square metres extension and make a living...

Maybe the confusion is in the fact that most people are not really aware of architectural design. They do not understand the importance of a proper building survey before starting the design of the extension. They are not aware of building specifications and compliance with the Building Regulations...

If you want a full and descent design for your extension, 800euro may not even pay the minimum income to your architect... Then do not blame him if something goes wrong after that... You will be the only one to blame...

BenK

A few things I'd like to mention. Firstly I'd argue it's impossible to know exactly what the OP should expect to be charged as enough information hasn't really been given, i.e., is a full service required including design, planning, tender through to site inspection and certification or simply drawing up 'plans' for a planning application? Is the site in a particularly difficult location?

And to the few people implying that your extension doesn't require planning permission if it's under 40 sq.m.: in very particular and limited circumstances this is the case but it's very misleading and plain wrong to suggest that this applies universally. There are numerous restrictions in relation to the size of garden left over, distances to boundaries, height restrictions and whether the house has had an extension before.

Also I don't like the way it's implied that architects should be whoring out their services at the moment... This belittles the profession and the very valuable service they provide and in the long run the client can only be getting a diminished service that they may very well end up paying for in the long run!

Tomboy

I think some poeple need to calm down. The original poster clearly said "how much would it cost to draw up a set of plans" There was nothing mentioned about application for planning. I think to draw up a set of plans for an extension and not preparing a full application then €300 is a good price. A arch tech or civil eng tech who is competent with autocad could quickly put something together. Now if a full planning application is required then that is a different story.

Chris Arch

Tomboy wrote: »

I think some poeple need to calm down. The original poster clearly said "how much would it cost to draw up a set of plans" There was nothing mentioned about application for planning. I think to draw up a set of plans for an extension and not preparing a full application then €300 is a good price. A arch tech or civil eng tech who is competent with autocad could quickly put something together. Now if a full planning application is required then that is a different story.

Tomboy,

it is difficult to come down when I hear these type of things. How can you make a living when charging €300 to design an extension?

You are obviously ignorant on the amount of work required... Such work includes for the first contact with clients, listening to their brief, agreeing the fees, prepararing and signing the contract (time spent: Minimum 2 hours). It includes for a survey of the existing property as you can not design an extension without carrying out a partial survey of the property (time spent: Minimum 2 hours). If you want to carry out your work properly, you will come back to the clients with a sketch to insure that they are happy with the design before finalising it (time spent: Minimum 3 hours). Then you will put the design on CAD or revit or similar, and produce construction details and specifications (time spent: Minimum 12 hours). You will then prepare your invoice and organise a meeting with clients to present the final design and hopefuly collect your fees in the same time (time spent: Minimum 1 hour).

We are talking of a minimum of 20 hours of work. To find this client you will need to spent time and money in advertising, approx. €100 and 2 hours of your time per month, the PI insurance cost a minimum of €65 per month. Unless you are working from your bedroom or living room you need an office to carry out such business, this will cost you a minimum of €300 per month, business phone and electricity bills a minimum of €35 per month + other expenses such has travel, printing, computer and softwares, etc... There is also all the work that you need to do to keep the business running, such as accounting, dealing with taxes, keeping informed with latest building tech as well as planning and building regulations.

the minimum cost per hour to run descent architectural services are approx.: €3 per hour and approx 10 hours of work per week.

If you carry out the extension design for €300 you will have had €60 minimum for expenses. As well as the 20 hours that you will have worked on the project there will be 5 hours that you will have worked to keep the business going. This represents a total of 25 hours worked. You will then earn a maximum of €9.60 per hour on the project.

I think that you will earn more by cleaning the shelves in a Tesco store... The fact is that working for Tesco or any other company you will also have income guarantied at the end of the month and 4 weeks paid holyday per year + bank holydays and seekness as well as maternity leave...

Then please do not ask me to come down when I hear these types of non sense...

icbarros

I totally agree with Chris Arch.
Thanks for the time you spent doing all those calculations. Well done!
People just don't realize everything that is involved in the design process. And there is probably even more to add.

JuniorB

As with most arguments from professionals in the current climate the assumption is being made that you can walk into Tesco and get a job stacking the shelves. This is not the case. If you don't want to make €9.80 an hour then you walk to the dole office and sign on.... that is the choice.
As for advertising costs in the current environment ... eh ... that would be 0. Phones, ESB etc - all have to be paid anyway if you were on the dole or working from home..

Chris Arch

JuniorB wrote: »

As with most arguments from professionals in the current climate the assumption is being made that you can walk into Tesco and get a job stacking the shelves. This is not the case. If you don't want to make €9.80 an hour then you walk to the dole office and sign on.... that is the choice.
As for advertising costs in the current environment ... eh ... that would be 0. Phones, ESB etc - all have to be paid anyway if you were on the dole or working from home..

Junior...

When you will be mature, you will understand that even during these current economical downturn, advertising is still necessary to run a business, and it does still cost money...

With regard to working from home, some architects do it but when you have children, this is a very difficult task. And in contrary to you it seems, I do not spend hours on my computers or on the phone unless it is for work...

You seem to be completely off the hook with regard to running a business... But you are excused... Everybody has been junior before...

If you are courageous enough to start your own business one day, you will understand...

JuniorB

Chris I was only pointing out some flaws to your argument. If you can't take that then there's no need to revert to personalised insults.
I'm self employed for over 14 years and am more than qualified to comment on how to run a business.

Chris Arch

JuniorB wrote: »

I'm self employed for over 14 years and am more than qualified to comment on how to run a business.

I can not believe it.!. What can of business are you running from home, without spending electricity, without using the phone and without heating requirement to keep you warm while working during winter?

What type of business does not require advertising when there is a slow down in the economy? Even if you were selling drug it would not fit the profile...

When did I insult you? you have not pointed to a flaw in my argument but you have given me the impression to talk about something that you don't know. It is easy to pretend running a business but more difficult doing it...

You pretend that an architect can work from home... Maybe if he has no children or if he has a large dwelling where to accomodate his office... But when you say that phone bills and electricity bills have to be paid anyway, you obviously have not thought enough... When someone is employed, electricity, phone and heating bills are paid by the employer. When I pay my staff I do not ask them to share the bills with me, and by the way, they do not work for 9 euro per hour, and even if they were, I would still have to pay their PRSI, and they would still have to pay their taxes and employee 's PRSI...

For all these reasons, I think that if you were running a business as you pretend, you would not say such things as the one you posted earlier...

Poor Uncle Tom

Agree to differ boys, don't get banned...:)

JuniorB

LOL.. I know hundreds of businesses that don't have to advertise - especially in the construction and planning industry which this forum is about. You obviously don't get my point about the flawed theory in your calculations esp with regards to fixed, variable costs etc so I'll leave you to it...best of luck with your 'business'

muffler

Right lads. Enough is enough. Any more sniping at each other will result in you both getting "muffled" (trust me, you dont want that to happen)

Back on topic please.

Chris Arch

The fact is that this thread was started by someone willing to know the price to design a 40 sq m extension...

I am personnely just trying to give some answers here...

I think that architectural services are proffessional services, and that issues such as Proffessional Indemnity Insurance, Personal risk Insurance, PRSI, Taxes, accounting, expenses and the quality of the services shall be taken into consideration when pricing a project... Now it seems that other people on this board, probably students, have not understood these basic obligations...

I am just contesting the idea that someone can produce the service requested for 300 euro as part of a profitable business.

Is there a problem with that?

muffler

Chris Arch wrote: »

I am just contesting the idea that someone can produce the service requested for 300 euro as part of a profitable business.

Is there a problem with that?

Yes there is a problem when the arguing and sniping derails the thread.

Ignore the other comments, state what you think it should cost and leave it at that. The OP simply asked what it would cost so there is no need to wander off topic but attempting to justify a higher fee than what was mentioned.

I run a business and I know what the overheads are so we can leave it at that now.

Chris Arch

muffler wrote: »

Yes there is a problem when the arguing and sniping derails the thread.

Ignore the other comments, state what you think it should cost and leave it at that. The OP simply asked what it would cost so there is no need to wander off topic but attempting to justify a higher fee than what was mentioned.

I run a business and I know what the overheads are so we can leave it at that now.

Muffler...

I know that you can cut me short on the thread... But you seem to pass through the problem here...

I am not trying to justify higher cost in services... I am trying to defend quality in architecture and also to defend legal businesses against other type of businesses which provide services without paying taxes, without being registered or without being insured using pirated computer softwares...

Now, I am not sure about the position of this board on these issues. But surely it would be unapropriate to prevent the starter of this thread being informed about it.

I feel shocked by your statement pretending that I am trying to justify higher fees, when I am only trying to give a realistic detailling on what is involved in the design process.

muffler

Chris Arch banned for 7 days and thread locked.

sydthebeat

Chris Arch wrote: »

Muffler...

I know that you can cut me short on the thread... But you seem to pass through the problem here...

I am not trying to justify higher cost in services... I am trying to defend quality in architecture and also to defend legal businesses against other type of businesses which provide services without paying taxes, without being registered or without being insured using pirated computer softwares...

Now, I am not sure about the position of this board on these issues. But surely it would be unapropriate to prevent the starter of this thread being informed about it.

I feel shocked by your statement pretending that I am trying to justify higher fees, when I am only trying to give a realistic detailling on what is involved in the design process.

chris, your service would be different to the arch student doing it for 300 as a nixer.... everybody understands that....

but if teh OP just wants the student or nixer engagement, so be it... you pay peanuts you get monkeys.....

unfortunately in todays climate so many of our colleagues have been made redundant, that has driven many of them 'underground' doing work on teh blackmarket..... that means legit business now have the real problem of trying to price against these guys .. which is impossible. Its happening in many sectors of teh construction industry, and is a significant factor in teh drop of in tax revenue... cash is now king.... if the government had any clue the first thing they would do is cut the vat rate from 21.5% to 10%... i guarantee that would bring in a lot more revenuve.....

if joe public is faced with paying 300 cash or say 450 + vat for what he sees as being the same service... what will he pick...... its a no brainer

in the words of a terrible analogy, dont blame the player, blame the game....