Surveillance "black box" in all new cars is backed by EU Commission.

Run_to_da_hills

This is no April fools joke, Three hours to go at time of posting.

The UK government is backing a project to install a “communication box” in new cars to track the whereabouts of drivers anywhere in Europe, the Guardian can reveal.

Under the proposals, vehicles will emit a constant “heartbeat” revealing their location, speed and direction of travel. The EU officials behind the plan believe it will significantly reduce road accidents, congestion and carbon emissions. A consortium of manufacturers has indicated that the router device could be installed in all new cars as early as 2013.

Details of the Cooperative Vehicle-Infrastructure Systems (CVIS) project, a £36m EU initiative backed by car manufacturers and the telecoms industry, will be unveiled this year.

But the Guardian has been given unpublished documents detailing the proposed uses for the system. They confirm that it could have profound implications for privacy, enabling cars to be tracked to within a metre - more accurate than current satellite navigation technologies.

The European commission has asked governments to reserve radio frequency on the 5.9 Gigahertz band, essentially setting aside a universal frequency on which CVIS technology will work.

those involved in the project describe the UK as one of the main “state backers”. Transport for London has also hosted trials of the technology.

The European Data Protection Supervisor will make a formal announcement on the privacy implications of CVIS technology soon. But in a recent speech he said the technology would have “great impact on rights to privacy and data”.

Paul Kompfner, who manages CVIS, said governments would have to decide on privacy safeguards. “[…] the right legal and privacy framework can be put in place before the technology reaches the market,” he said.

A “communication box” behind the dashboard ensures that cars send out “heartbeat” messages every 500 milliseconds through mobile cellular and wireless local area networks, short-range microwave or infrared.

The messages will be picked up by other cars in the vicinity, allowing vehicles to warn each other if they are forced to break hard or swerve to avoid a hazard.

That enables the road to communicate with cars, allowing for “[…] gantries on the motorway to announce changes to speed limits.

Data will also be sent to “control centres” that manage traffic, enabling a vastly improved system to monitor and even direct vehicles.

“A traffic controller will know where all vehicles are and even where they are headed,” said Kompfner.

Although the plan is to initially introduce the technology on a voluntary basis, Kompfner conceded that for the system to work it would need widespread uptake. He envisages governments making the technology mandatory for safety reasons. Any system that tracks cars could also be used for speed enforcement or national road tolling.

Roads in the UK are already subject to the closest surveillance of any in the world. Police control a database that is fed information from automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras, and are able to deduce the journeys of as many as 10 million drivers a day. Details are stored for up to five years.

Advice to ministers obtained by the Guardian under the Freedom of Information Act advocates upgrading to a more effective car tracking-based system, similar to CVIS technology, but warns such a system could be seen as a “spy in the cab” and “may be regarded as draconian”.

Introducing a more benign technology first, the report by transport consultants argues, would “enable potential adverse public reaction to be better managed”.

No better way to kill off the motor manufacturing trade completly by imposing such invasive measures on new cars.


Full article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/31/surveillance-transport-communication-box

drunkmonkey

that's one dumb ass commission....stupid idea...like who in the hell is going to want one of those

L-M

Got bored after 4 lines... Anyone care to summarize? Lol

Guy:Incognito

Have any of these scaremongering threads you start ever come to pass RTDH? Cos I never see a follow up to any of them where you tell us how we are all now under the evil spell.

Owen

Basically RTDH's after posting another sensationalist Big Brother conspiracy theory he's so fond of. But this time it's got merit - so fair play to him.

EU is proposing to install black boxes to allow cars to communicate with one another if an accident is about to happen, but it could also be used to issue speeding fines, see if your spouse is cheating etc, but it's being installed voluntarily after 2013. No word of it becoming mandatory as of yet.

Nothing to see here, move on, etc.

jhegarty

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The European commission has asked governments to reserve radio frequency on the 5.9 Gigahertz band, essentially setting aside a universal frequency on which CVIS technology will work.

Wouldn't that only give it a range of a few feet ?

Run_to_da_hills

Limerick man wrote: »

Got bored after 4 lines... Anyone care to summarize? Lol

Yes in 7 words: : "EU Big Brother will be watching you". :P

Thoie

So, when you drive through many of the telecom blackspots around Ireland, they'll assume you're dead, contact your next of kin, and then say "Oh sorry, our mistakes, she's just in a traffic jam in Firhouse"?

And when I report my car missing to the gardaí they'll immediately leap to their feet and retrieve my car within 10 minutes?

And when the numpty in front of me slams on the brakes for no good reason, just as I'm concentrating really hard on avoiding an accident, my car will start distracting me with additional warning lights? Will they fit them to cyclists and pedestrians too, so that you know when you're about to hit one?

That sounds fabulous.

derry

All this safty crap is hiding its all done to suit Big Brother

Derry

Run_to_da_hills

derry wrote: »

All this safty crap is hiding its all done to suit Big Brother

Derry

More so to track down on potential terrorists. :rolleyes:

Johnboy Mac

It will be a sad day when that happens. Safety my ass, it's BIG BROTHER first and foremost, I've no doubt.

starbelgrade

Would it record you picking your nose when stuck in traffic? I seriously hope not.

Run_to_da_hills

starbelgrade wrote: »

Would it record you picking your nose when stuck in traffic? I seriously hope not.

Nope but these will

http://www.wlu.ca/images/page_images/12854/12854_cctv.gif

starbelgrade

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Nope but these will

http://www.wlu.ca/images/page_images/12854/12854_cctv.gif

Not in Sligo they won't - last time they put up CCTV's here, they were nicked.

robtri

jesus wept, can we just move this to the CT forum, where it belongs, along with RTDH other wild theroies.....

Run_to_da_hills

robtri wrote: »

jesus wept, can we just move this to the CT forum, where it belongs, along with RTDH other wild theroies.....

CIVIS technology is a FACT and not a conspiracy.

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/esafety/doc/rtd_projects/fact_sheets/call_4/cvis.pdf

robtri

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

CIVIS technology is a FACT and not a conspiracy.

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/esafety/doc/rtd_projects/fact_sheets/call_4/cvis.pdf

no but your idea's on how it will be used to be big brother ect are!!! CT forum is that away

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jhegarty

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

CIVIS technology is a FACT and not a conspiracy.

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/esafety/doc/rtd_projects/fact_sheets/call_4/cvis.pdf

And film sets exist , but that doesn't prove that the moon landings were fake.

I.S.T.

Most cars already have a tracking device in them, either a sat nav or mobile phone.

BlackWizard

Sounds like a good idea. I always forget where I park my car.

Run_to_da_hills

robtri wrote: »

no but your idea's on how it will be used to be big brother ect are!!! CT forum is that away

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Again, It is the Guardian that wrote that article with the appropriate headline. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/31/surveillance-transport-communication-box

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Most cars already have a tracking device in them, either a sat nav or mobile phone.

A sat nav is only a receiver and not a transmitter.

Lobelia Overhill

Dunno if this is about the same sort of thing, but I've often thought a black box would be a good idea - a friend of mine [in the UK] was in a terrible crash years ago, she was merging onto a motorway when her car was hit by someone on the motorway, her car was flipped over a half dozen times and she was charged with reckless driving. As far as she can remember (the actual crash is a blank - no one in the car was killed) she as stationary on the slip road waiting for a gap in the on coming traffic ... (dunno what the other driver/witnesses had to say on the incident)

Would black boxes have determined where she was and what speed both her and the other driver were doing at the time sorted out who was to blame?

cnocbui

This is not going to happen.

Firstly, the proposed device will contain a GPS - to get to 1m accuracy suggests differential GPS, even more expensive - ding. It also contains infra red capabilities, perhaps a transceiever. Can't imagine why, but add that to the cost - ding. It also has a microwave transceiver - ding! - and cellular phone comms module - ding! To make it all work we need a microprocessor and sundries - ding.

That little lot is going to cost more than an Apple laptop. The motoring mugs are going to swallow paying for this?

But all that is small chips in the scheme of things, because the really huge cost - and the reason this will never happen - is the cost of getting the data from the car to Big Brother. All that data, and at every half second for every vehicle there will be a lot of it, is going to be communicated how? Over the mobile phone network? Governments don't own those networks do they? So are the governments going to oblige the networks to donate their services for free? Or in the case of the UK, say 30M vehicles on the road at one time, is the government going to pay for the equivalent of 60m text messages a second - 12/7/365?

April fools if you ask me.

Guy:Incognito

Lobelia Overhil wrote: »

she as stationary on the slip road waiting for a gap in the on coming traffic

She stopped on the slip road to try and merge to a motorway?:eek:

I see some right idiots trying to merge onto motorways (this usually involves braking to slower than the traffic :rolleyes:) but trying to merge from a stopped position on to a motorway (which I assume was flowing if someone hit her hard enough to flip the car?) is monumentally stupid.

Wossack

Stekelly wrote: »

She stopped on the slip road to try and merge to a motorway?:eek:

I see some right idiots trying to merge onto motorways (this usually involves braking to slower than the traffic :rolleyes:) but trying to merge from a stopped position on to a motorway (which I assume was flowing if someone hit her hard enough to flip the car?) is monumentally stupid.

aye - unless this black box contains some sort of incendiary that would have evaporated the merging car... hmm

Run_to_da_hills

cnocbui wrote: »

This is not going to happen.

Firstly, the proposed device will contain a GPS - to get to 1m accuracy suggests differential GPS, even more expensive - ding. It also contains infra red capabilities, perhaps a transceiever. Can't imagine why, but add that to the cost - ding. It also has a microwave transceiver - ding! - and cellular phone comms module - ding! To make it all work we need a microprocessor and sundries - ding.

Technology's dirt cheap these days, especially with mass production.

Twenty five years ago would you have believed anyone if they told you that in time to come you could own a pocket sized device that could store and play 1000's of "record" tracks, full length movies, games, guide you across the city, take 1000's of high quality photos and develop them instantly, and also make phone calls and type "letters" all for an average days wages. I doubt it.

Many of the gadgets currently fitted as standard on cars would have been costly prohibitive a just a few years ago.

Capt'n Midnight

tl;dr

has benefits in recovering stolen vehicles
But the reason for putting a gps in every car is for road tolling.
A pay as you drive tax

It's already in use by some insurance companies here, in Germany in trucks and on trial in the UK

Look at how much we paid to remove the toll booths on the M50 €600m :mad::mad:
It would have been cheaper to fit a gps to every vehicle in the state.

from 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4610755.stm

A satellite tracking system would be used to enforce the toll, with prices varying from 2p per mile for driving on a quiet road out of the rush hour to £1.34 for motorways at peak times.

Run_to_da_hills

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

tl;dr

has benefits in recovering stolen vehicles
But the reason for putting a gps in every car is for road tolling.
A pay as you drive tax

It's already in use by some insurance companies here, in Germany in trucks and on trial in the UK

Look at how much we paid to remove the toll booths on the M50 €600m :mad::mad:
It would have been cheaper to fit a gps to every vehicle in the state.

from 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4610755.stm

Shish!!!, its not called tolling, it will be politely referred to as an "environmental Levi". and will be the Euro wide answer to the controversial London Congestion charge. :mad:

I started a thread in the Green Issues forum on a similar note.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055482519&highlight=green+issues

Lobelia Overhill

Stekelly wrote: »

She stopped on the slip road to try and merge to a motorway?:eek:

I see some right idiots trying to merge onto motorways (this usually involves braking to slower than the traffic :rolleyes:) but trying to merge from a stopped position on to a motorway (which I assume was flowing if someone hit her hard enough to flip the car?) is monumentally stupid.

I have no idea, I wasn't there, I'm just repeating what I was told, and from what I remember of motorways [in the UK] you do wait for a gap in the traffic, not just barrel onto the motorway - where cars are frequently drive up to and over 100MPH ...

*shrugs*

Guy:Incognito

Lobelia Overhil wrote: »

I have no idea, I wasn't there, I'm just repeating what I was told, and from what I remember of motorways [in the UK] you do wait for a gap in the traffic, not just barrel onto the motorway - where cars are frequently drive up to and over 100MPH ...

*shrugs*

You most certainly do not stop and wait for a gap .How big a gap would you need between two cars "frequently drive up to and over 100MPH " to merge from a standing start?

The slip road is there so you can build up your speed to match the traffic on the motorway and then merge. Otherwise they would have T junctions and stop signs. UK motorways work the same as ours.