Solar Ripof?

jochenstacker

After some research on the Irish market for a solar hot water system and comparing the prices quoted at me I'm beginning to suspect that simply going abroad, buying the equipment and installing it yourself, or by a reasonable plumber may be about a thousand Euro cheaper than going the fully official route here, by going via an official supplier and using a certified installer in order to avail of the SEI grant.
A fully installed solar system seems to start at around €3000, going to €6000 and the sky's the limit.
A panel of 30 tubes and all relevant bits you need for an installation seems to retail at around £800 on a UK website and I'm still sounding out the North.
Has anyone else had any experience? Any tips and tricks?
It used to be the case that the grant simply got added onto the purchase price of whatever you bought, but now it seems the rules are to double the basic price of the equipment and add on twice the grant. Ripoff just won't do anymore.

gizmo555

I don't know that prices are hugely out of line with other European countries. This Austrian building website (German language) assumes in its example payback calculations for a solar hot water system a typical fitted cost of €5,250 (before grants/tax relief) for a 6m2 system including a 300 litre tank:

http://www.wohnnet.at/kosten-solaranlage-wasser.htm

If you want to ignore the SEI and their grants, which require you to use a registered supplier, you might consider this one day DIY solar system course which is on this weekend in Dublin and again twice later this year in Westport. (By the way, this is not a recommendation - I know nothing about the course other than what's on the website.)

http://www.sustainability.ie/shortdurationcourses.html

PeteHeat

Hi jochenstacker,

I am in the business and like you have seen the offers from UK suppliers, as solar is my living I have researched what some have on offer.

Many of the cheap products on offer do not have Solar Keymark (minimum standard) in fact one system claimed to have it but were using the certification from a similar product.

I would love to be based in the UK selling to Irish customers, straight cash buyers, any parts missing they won't be back (even on Ryan air).

If the system doesn't work or breaks apart who cares ?

What protection has an Irish consumer in the UK ?

Even if they have the same rights how many will spend thousands chasing a UK web site ?

As Gizmo 555 points out prices here are not out of line when compared with similar quality products throughout the E.U. including the UK.

If you want cheap it's available in Ireland too, though you would probably get better value from mounting an old radiator on your roof.

I would prefer if you buy a quality system regardless of where you buy it because the quality system will perform and that makes for one less unhappy customer to attack the Irish Solar Industry.

robtri

jochenstacker wrote: »

After some research on the Irish market for a solar hot water system and comparing the prices quoted at me I'm beginning to suspect that simply going abroad, buying the equipment and installing it yourself, or by a reasonable plumber may be about a thousand Euro cheaper than going the fully official route here, by going via an official supplier and using a certified installer in order to avail of the SEI grant.
A fully installed solar system seems to start at around €3000, going to €6000 and the sky's the limit.
A panel of 30 tubes and all relevant bits you need for an installation seems to retail at around £800 on a UK website and I'm still sounding out the North.
Has anyone else had any experience? Any tips and tricks?
It used to be the case that the grant simply got added onto the purchase price of whatever you bought, but now it seems the rules are to double the basic price of the equipment and add on twice the grant. Ripoff just won't do anymore.

as gizmo and peteheat say, you can buy cheap.... but if you are going to do this sort of conversion it is better to spend the extra and get a good system....

jochenstacker

well the thing i had in mind is a website called Navitron, here's an example of a 30 tube solar system with all the kit and a tank for £1500.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=42&catID=86
That's what suppliers here want for a panel without the tank. And that's the reasonable ones.
I predict going to the North and picking it up myself will be even cheaper. This whole industry was created to patch up substandard, overpriced, cardboard houses that would have been rejected in Europe 30 years ago and to keep the builders in jobs that built them in the first place and now get paid 2nd time around.
But in fairness there are people out there who care for sustainable technology.
But the problem is that any sort of grant attracts a lot of people who simply smell money.
I even heard of cases where people just drive up to the North, buy their stock in a regular shop there and sell it on at a considerable markup.

PeteHeat

Hi,

You may be interested to know the exact product you named can be bought here for a similar price.

Actually if you want that exact package and are willing to pay the Euro equal of the Retail Price: £ 1,346.96 (excl. Vat) and as you quote sustainability are willing to pay the Republic of Ireland VAT rate (please sustain the home economy) P.M. and you have that system.

It is not the usual quality sold here, but obviously you have carried out the research and know what you want.

Competition being the life of trade I would not like the Irish consumer to think we in the industry are afraid to match the "bargains" on foreign web sites when we can.

jochenstacker

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi,

You may be interested to know the exact product you named can be bought here for a similar price.

Actually if you want that exact package and are willing to pay the Euro equal of the Retail Price: £ 1,346.96 (excl. Vat) and as you quote sustainability are willing to pay the Republic of Ireland VAT rate (please sustain the home economy) P.M. and you have that system.

It is not the usual quality sold here, but obviously you have carried out the research and know what you want.

Competition being the life of trade I would not like the Irish consumer to think we in the industry are afraid to match the "bargains" on foreign web sites when we can.

Excellent, would love to look them up, what's the address?

Carlow52

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi jochenstacker,

............though you would probably get better value from mounting an old radiator on your roof.....

Indeed: I suppose if you had plenty sunscreen on, should be okay:)

jochenstacker

Looks like there are some people out there who want to offer a genuine product at a genuine price.
http://www.aei.ie/solar-panels
With a bit of skill and a handy mate you can buy a kit and install it, or pay a non-certified plumber (i.e. friendly neighborhood Pole at a third of the price) to install it.
Having said that, some people, who can barely change a lightbulb without calling an electrician and certainly wouldn't have a hope installing a solar kit certainly will need to go the all official route and call the pros.
I'm personally willing to take a gamble that will potentially save me a lot of money, a bit like servicing your own car. If it works and you know what you're doing, it will save you a fortune.
If it doesn't and you don't, it can go spectacularly wrong.
When you hire a cowboy, make sure you get Clint Eastwood and not Eli Wallach.

PeteHeat

Hi,

I sent a reply to the earlier post by Private Message which I hope you received.

I found these statements interesting :

"With a bit of skill and a handy mate you can buy a kit and install it, or pay a non-certified plumber (i.e. friendly neighborhood Pole at a third of the price) to install it."

I fail to see the need to use anyone non-certified if you qualify for the present Grant under the Greener Homes Scheme.

I fail to see why they should be "non-certified", the registration rules are fairly easy to meet;

1) Prove they are up to date with their tax's by producing a C2 or Tax Clearance certificate.

2) Show they are competant by having completed a training course and passing a fairly simple exam.


"If it works and you know what you're doing, it will save you a fortune."

Sorry but you are not installing an outside tap where if it leaks you can turn off the mains supply to the house;

If you know what you are doing it will work and save you that fortune.

If you don't know what you are doing you can wreck your system, at worst you could cause yourself or a member of your family serious injuries from scalding them.

Remember the power source is the Sun, very difficult to turn off if you get into difficulties.

(i.e. friendly neighborhood Pole at a third of the price)

BTW Nationality does not come into the equation if you are employing a tradesman who lives in Ireland complete with all of the daily living expences that brings.

gears

jochenstacker wrote: »

well the thing i had in mind is a website called Navitron, here's an example of a 30 tube solar system with all the kit and a tank for £1500.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=42&catID=86
That's what suppliers here want for a panel without the tank. And that's the reasonable ones.
I predict going to the North and picking it up myself will be even cheaper. This whole industry was created to patch up substandard, overpriced, cardboard houses that would have been rejected in Europe 30 years ago and to keep the builders in jobs that built them in the first place and now get paid 2nd time around.
But in fairness there are people out there who care for sustainable technology.
But the problem is that any sort of grant attracts a lot of people who simply smell money.
I even heard of cases where people just drive up to the North, buy their stock in a regular shop there and sell it on at a considerable markup.

I have to agree with some other posters, I also know of a supplier who sells systems of a similar price. PM Sent. I do also agree that some suppliers are charging way above what a reasonable market price for solar systems, I was talking to someone recently who paid almost €1000 FOR A 20 TUBE PANEL :eek: It's like most things a little shopping around can really open your eyes.

PeteHeat

Hi,

Appears some people don't even want to know the difference between a rip off and good value for money.

I recently fitted a great value for money system that needs 60 tubes to heat a 300 litre cylinder.

I paid three times the price of one of those 20 tube panels for an 18 tube system for my sons home.

Guess which system can bring the 300 litre cylinder above 60c the fastest ?

Guess which system took less time and materials to install ?

Some people want their roof covered in tubes, must be a feel good factor, I prefer the small system that works well today and will perform the same in ten years.

Just a little food for thought.

.

jochenstacker

Would be great to get an impartial comparison somewhere.
As with everything you buy, most expensive is not always automatically best.
Just because there is a glossy brochure and you’re being told “those cheap systems don’t work, never go above lukewarm but will explode and scald your cat” and the system costs 3 times as much, doesn’t mean it’s the best one out there.
Also, lower priced systems aren’t automatically useless crap.
It would be like saying Mercedes are the most expensive cars, therefore the best and you would be a fool to buy anything cheaper.
Well, I’m in the market for something more like a Ford. Maybe Toyota, since they are more reliable and economic than Mercs (proven it grieves me to say).
I wouldn’t just buy any cheap system to save a few bucks, since there undoubtedly is cheap crap out there, that’s been nailed together by children at gunpoint in some sweatshop in China ;-)
But I also won’t unquestioningly buy the most expensive system, since you could end up with a Merc (expensive, badly made and breaks down a lot).
Next step: scouring product comparison websites in Germany and the UK

troutbum

PeteHeat wrote: »

I recently fitted a great value for money system that needs 60 tubes to heat a 300 litre cylinder.

I paid three times the price of one of those 20 tube panels for an 18 tube system for my sons home.

Guess which system can bring the 300 litre cylinder above 60c the fastest ?

There is no need to guess as simple physics will prove that no 18 tube system is capable of outperforming a 60 tube one. I searched the SPF Test Results for solar collectors and failed to find one with a proven output capacity three times higher than a competitor - so I guess the answer must be the 60 tube one!

There is no justification for an evacuated tube panel being more than 3 times the price of a competitor - especially since the vast majority (over 90%) are all made in the same factories in China and the underlying design is almost identical resulting in very similar performance figures. That is also the reason why the failure rates and longevity are also going to be very similar!

PeteHeat

troutbum wrote: »

There is no need to guess as simple physics will prove that no 18 tube system is capable of outperforming a 60 tube one. I searched the SPF Test Results for solar collectors and failed to find one with a proven output capacity three times higher than a competitor - so I guess the answer must be the 60 tube one!

There is no justification for an evacuated tube panel being more than 3 times the price of a competitor - especially since the vast majority (over 90%) are all made in the same factories in China and the underlying design is almost identical resulting in very similar performance figures. That is also the reason why the failure rates and longevity are also going to be very similar!

Hi,

It is very obvious that I am in the renewable energy business, therefore to most I must not be deemed to be impartial and rightly so.

The way I see it is there are people reading and posting here who are already sold on the idea of installing a system I have nothing to gain by posting lies or padding the numbers because all that will happen is I become another source that can't be trusted.

A lot of the information I had to work with was from manufacturers and various suppliers, the information varied so much that the only way I can be sure of what works and what doesn't is to try it myself.

The systems I have tested were all on open display for a member of the public to walk in and see them perform, one Gent called in once sometimes twice a week over the course of about three months before making a decision.

Yes the 18 tube system works as described, is it worth the Rolls Royce price tag ? In my opinion No because the retail price is far to high maybe the importer will see this or as has happened with others will be replaced by the manufacturer.

I did not supply the 60 tube system, I fitted it for two reasons, one I wanted to see how the system performed & get to examine it up close and personal at no cost to myself as the client was paying my commercial rate for the installation.

Was the 60 tube system worth the money ? in my opinion No, the reason being I believe the system was not the product that had received the Solar Keymark and was not capable of performing as expected.

I honestly believe all the data sheets and test reports are nothing more than guides, the only way to say a system works or not is to test it or ask somebody you can trust who has one.

I agree the majority of us do not want or need the Mercedes (even the good models) personally I am happy with the honest Ford or VW that performs as expected.

I would also like to see SEI or similar run performance tests here in Ireland for every system on the approved list, I also believe that every shipment should have some form of security bond in place to ensure it is what it says on the pack.

Germany have Blue Angel (SP?) every product would not pass that standard but it gives the German consumer something real and un-biased to work with when making comparisons.
.