Off License Closing Times

liberal

Hi lads,

This is my first post.

Could anyone explain to me the mechanics behind how the government changed the opening hours of Off Licences from 11pm to 10pm?

Which politicians put forward the idea and which suppourted it? Did anyone oppose it? Who does it serve? I have a theory that it came about due to pressure from the Vintners Association, I pressume this simply because I can't see any other group that it serves (pardon the pun), it blantantly has no impact on underage drinking as the under-agers are all ready well plastered by 10pm having got the drink earlier (when i was a young roughian we used to get our drink days in advance).

I'd be satisfied with even one good reason for the change, but I can't think of one.

Thanks and forgive my poor spelling!

wylo

liberal wrote: »

Hi lads,

This is my first post.

Could anyone explain to me the mechanics behind how the government changed the opening hours of Off Licences from 11pm to 10pm?

Which politicians put forward the idea and which suppourted it? Did anyone oppose it? Who does it serve? I have a theory that it came about due to pressure from the Vintners Association, I pressume this simply because I can't see any other group that it serves (pardon the pun), it blantantly has no impact on underage drinking as the under-agers are all ready well plastered by 10pm having got the drink earlier (when i was a young roughian we used to get our drink days in advance).

I'd be satisfied with even one good reason for the change, but I can't think of one.

Thanks and forgive my poor spelling!

I cant answer your questions, but Im just posting this to say I completely agree, its the most annoying thing on a Friday night when your sitting down relaxing on the couch and you look at the watch and its 9.56 and you need to grab some cans in the offy.
There is nothing to be gained from it

SeanW

Exactly. I don't even drink and I can clearly see that this is nothing more than an excuse to drown people in red tape and regulate in favour of FF/publicans.

When it comes to cracking down on off-licenses, FF is at the forefront, but when Michael McDowell (in the one good idea that authoritarian excuse for a politician came up with) suggested allowing cafe-bar licensing to foster a continental attitude to alcohol ... it died an uncerimonious death after an FF/publican/backbencher revolt.

Steviemak

Since it has come in i tend to stock up just in case I get that urge on a Friday evening - usually need a drink half hour into the Late Late;) But as a result I probably drink more. The publicans pushed for this as they wanted to catch the people who wanted a drink after 10. There is no good reason for the change - all it has done is inconvenienced people.

cavedave

"The limitation in number, for instance, of beer and spirit-houses, for the express purpose of rendering them more difficult of access, and diminishing the occasions of temptation, not only exposes all to an inconvenience because there are some by whom the facility would be abused, but is suited only to a state of society in which the laboring classes are avowedly treated as children or savages"
by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty

Martyr

I have a theory that it came about due to pressure from the Vintners Association

Funny you say this because i had been too late getting to off license last night and ended up going to the pub instead.

Since the smoking ban, alot more people chose to get drink in the off license and stay at home.

The Raven.

cavedave wrote: »

"The limitation in number, for instance, of beer and spirit-houses, for the express purpose of rendering them more difficult of access, and diminishing the occasions of temptation, not only exposes all to an inconvenience because there are some by whom the facility would be abused, but is suited only to a state of society in which the laboring classes are avowedly treated as children or savages"
by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty

+1. A well-chosen quotation, except for the fact that it is not just the labouring classes that are affected. The off-licensing laws so far have not been a problem for me, as I rarely drink. However, instead of intelligently targeting the abusers, we are all being punished in a variety of ways by the hideous, lazy-minded solutions that appear to underpin the philosophy of this nanny state.

r0nanf

I would not be surprised if the lobby was assisted by MEAS. There is no evidence to suggest that the restriction of availability or the cost of the product has anything to do with our unquenchable thirst for booze - there are many countries where alcohol is far cheaper and far more readily available, yet there are nowhere near the social problems that we have.

You cannot remove a mindset/attitudinal problem through tax and opening hours. You can however, remove civil liberties if it is worth a vote or two.

liberal

some great responses lads, we're all in agreement really

Id still love to get some names, my understanding of how this republic works is limited

Why I understand is that a TD presents an idea to the dail, then they vote, then the president signs it into law, i dont know where the senate comes into play....... so if im somewhat close to how law making works I would like to know who "suggested the idea"! Was he a publican or in those circles?? I beleave we the peole must fight even the smallest attack on our liberty, which this is...also....way off topic but, I got my provisional license 3 months ago but can't sit the test for a minimum of 6 months due to new law, so some shower of TDs decide when Im fit to sit my test, instead of being based on merit (I was getting a letter from my boss to speed up my application so i was hoping to be done and dusted well before now, instead Im ducking checkpoints in my polo)

population

Just finished a mind numbing job tonight and decided to celebrate with a single tinny. Fridge empty aaargghhh! Made it to the offy at 3 mins past the 10 and they point blank would not serve me.

I didnt hassle them because they were only doing their jobs but I was miffed. Stood outside looked at the pub across the road and weighed up the odds on going to the pub. Decided against it because

1) I didnt know how much a pint was there but I only had about 3 odd quid in loose change so prob couldnt afford it

2) I agree with what everyone else is saying on this thread, this whole thing just smacks of actually forcing people into the pubs

lmtduffy

speaking of this, I just presented the following at the labour party conference and it was passed:

Conference notes the efforts of the legislature to reduce the abuse of alcohol by reducing access to alcohol by further limiting opening hours of pubs, night clubs and off-licences.

Conference also notes that in today’s society many people are working later hours and through out the week and weekend including Sundays.

Conference further notes that capping the opening hours of pubs, night clubs and off-licences is an unjustifiable and unnecessary hindrance for those working late hours any day of the week.

Conference believes that forcing these establishments to close at the same time creates an environment where the transport and food services as well as the Guardai are stretched resulting in an increase in violence, vandalism and public order offences.

Conference believes that alcohol is to be enjoyed responsibly and that the current legislation restricts the rights of people to consume alcohol and that the current system does not help protect society from the effects of alcohol abuse.

Conference also believes that allowing pubs, clubs and nightclubs to extend their opening hours will alleviate the sudden rush created on the streets caused by the current system and will allow for those who work late or early hours on nay day of the week to enjoy alcohol.


Conference calls for:

• The licensing system to allow pubs, night clubs and off-licenses to extend their licenses as late or as early as the owners of the licences like subject to the courts satisfaction with the licence holders compliance and respect for other relevant laws.

• Licensing laws to no longer force pubs, nightclubs and off-licences to close earlier on weekdays or Sundays.

• Alcohol regulation to switch from restricting the rights of people and businesses to the protection of people from those who are drunk and disorderedly and to increase support for those abusing alcohol.

So vote labour or else tell your local politicians about this to pressure them (hopefully) into taking a stance.

The_Minister

I very much oppose the regulations that Lenihan brought in, but tbh, it's a bit silly to accuse him of caving to the vintners associatio, and ignore the family situation.

the_syco

In the old days, when the offie closed after last orders, I'd have my final pint, get some cans, and go home.

Now, I stock up beforehand, and either a) leave the pub early, and drink at home or b) just drink at home. Only goto the pub to see a band playing. Likewise, my friends would stock up, and some would just stay at their house. Maybe the price of drink will drop when the recession comes in: but I doubt it. I'd say the government will hike the tax on drink.

Not to worry: my pleasure won't be taxed

=-=

Link to lmtduffy's motion.

portomar

lmtduffy wrote: »

speaking of this, I just presented the following at the labour party conference and it was passed:

Conference notes the efforts of the legislature to reduce the abuse of alcohol by reducing access to alcohol by further limiting opening hours of pubs, night clubs and off-licences.

Conference also notes that in today’s society many people are working later hours and through out the week and weekend including Sundays.

Conference further notes that capping the opening hours of pubs, night clubs and off-licences is an unjustifiable and unnecessary hindrance for those working late hours any day of the week.

Conference believes that forcing these establishments to close at the same time creates an environment where the transport and food services as well as the Guardai are stretched resulting in an increase in violence, vandalism and public order offences.

Conference believes that alcohol is to be enjoyed responsibly and that the current legislation restricts the rights of people to consume alcohol and that the current system does not help protect society from the effects of alcohol abuse.

Conference also believes that allowing pubs, clubs and nightclubs to extend their opening hours will alleviate the sudden rush created on the streets caused by the current system and will allow for those who work late or early hours on nay day of the week to enjoy alcohol.


Conference calls for:

• The licensing system to allow pubs, night clubs and off-licenses to extend their licenses as late or as early as the owners of the licences like subject to the courts satisfaction with the licence holders compliance and respect for other relevant laws.

• Licensing laws to no longer force pubs, nightclubs and off-licences to close earlier on weekdays or Sundays.

• Alcohol regulation to switch from restricting the rights of people and businesses to the protection of people from those who are drunk and disorderedly and to increase support for those abusing alcohol.

So vote labour or else tell your local politicians about this to pressure them (hopefully) into taking a stance.

IMTduffy, is this now labour executive policy?? if it is you might get my no.1 ahead of the greens

lmtduffy

yes Pat Rabbite himself said he endorsed it even though it would be resisted by some,

there is always the chance they wont act on it if they get into power but I wrote and presented that policy and was very proud that my branch let me put it forward, so I dont plan on letting the exec sleep on it.

Edit: its Lmtduffy, im tired of people saying 1mtduffy or Imtduffy!

SeanW

Labour just went up 6 points in my book - nice work duffy!

seanybiker

Doesnt really affect me. The pub I drink in about 4-5 nights of the week does cans. Once the place is open they will serve ya cans. Well only if they know ya like. Plenty of times I be getting kicked out so the owner can go home so I just ask em to run and get me a few cans. If ya buy a load of cans they give ya a lift home and all. Its deadly.

lmtduffy

seanybiker wrote: »

Doesnt really affect me. The pub I drink in about 4-5 nights of the week does cans. Once the place is open they will serve ya cans. Well only if they know ya like. Plenty of times I be getting kicked out so the owner can go home so I just ask em to run and get me a few cans. If ya buy a load of cans they give ya a lift home and all. Its deadly.

It would be great if every pub was like this, especially the lift home bit,

your giving me ideas for the next conference...

msg11

I like the labour suggestions, on my light of how the situation has made things worse.

I work late most nights till 10. So problem 1

I will drink more, because I buy more, as I know Ill be finished work at 10 problem 2

I will not go the pub on a week day for an hour and a half when I finish work problem 3

I feel unsafe leaving some clubs knowing that there is one gardai per 20 Members of the public problem 4

I don't go into town as for the above problem, as there is a bigger risk of me getting attacked problem 5

I don't see it stopping me drinking problem 6

I don't see it stopping under-age drinking problem 7

I don't see it stopping any sort crime related acts of violence/road/abuse problem 8

I see it activily stopping on-license/off-license places losing money problem 9

I suddenly get a high work load around 9:45 down the tills. So I see this is not working, and also see companys taking a hit on lost sales.

lmtduffy

msg11 wrote: »

I like the labour suggestions, on my light of how the situation has made things worse.

I work late most nights till 10. So problem 1

I will drink more, because I buy more, as I know Ill be finished work at 10 problem 2

I will not go the pub on a week day for an hour and a half when I finish work problem 3

I feel unsafe leaving some clubs knowing that there is one gardai per 20 Members of the public problem 4

I don't go into town as for the above problem, as there is a bigger risk of me getting attacked problem 5

I don't see it stopping me drinking problem 6

I don't see it stopping under-age drinking problem 7

I don't see it stopping any sort crime related acts of violence/road/abuse problem 8

I see it activily stopping on-license/off-license places losing money problem 9

I suddenly get a high work load around 9:45 down the tills. So I see this is not working, and also see companys taking a hit on lost sales.

and we agree with you see: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1313878 Pat

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1313835 me

I dont think Ive met anyone who really agrees with or can defend the approach the Government takes with alcohol.

thebman

The current system isn't working that is true, you can't stop an alcoholic drinking any more than you can stop a heroin addict doing heroin.

They have to make the choice themselves to stop and no point annoying the public and salesmen of alcohol for that.

Throw legalising weed into it since the same rules apply and it is less harmful than alcohol and your starting to talk sense (last part won't happen I know, just had to throw it in there and I don't actually smoke the stuff or anything :P).

liberal

The_Minister wrote: »

I very much oppose the regulations that Lenihan brought in, but tbh, it's a bit silly to accuse him of caving to the vintners associatio, and ignore the family situation.

What family issue? I don't know what your talking about

liberal

lmtduffy wrote: »

and we agree with you see: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1313878- Pat

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1313835- me

I dont think Ive met anyone who really agrees with or can defend the approach the Government takes with alcohol.

404 both of them

lmtduffy

thebman wrote: »

The current system isn't working that is true, you can't stop an alcoholic drinking any more than you can stop a heroin addict doing heroin.

They have to make the choice themselves to stop and no point annoying the public and salesmen of alcohol for that.

Throw legalising weed into it since the same rules apply and it is less harmful than alcohol and your starting to talk sense (last part won't happen I know, just had to throw it in there and I don't actually smoke the stuff or anything :P).

Legalising cannabis is labour youth policy, and last year was put to national conference but was put to committee instead of being voted on,
which generally happens when they dont want to make a decision on the issue.

So maybe after we've shown we can act like grown ups with grown up drinking laws we'll be allowed act like adults with adult drug laws.

It's been pretty blatant since the law was drawn up that this is to make more people go to the pub.
Really bloody disgusting really. I don't know one single person who actually supports this. You either run out of beer or you buy more than you normally would have. That's all that happens.
If anything, it exacerbates problem drinking..

thebman

liberal wrote: »

404 both of them

Remove the - at the end, browser picking it up as part of the URL.

@ lmtduffy I'm glad its Labour Youth policy to legalise Cannabis. Keeping it illegal is actually a very good way to introduce people to drug dealers. That is the only way you can classify it as a "gateway drug" IMO.

liberal

thebman wrote: »

Remove the - at the end, browser picking it up as part of the URL.

@ lmtduffy I'm glad its Labour Youth policy to legalise Cannabis. Keeping it illegal is actually a very good way to introduce people to drug dealers. That is the only way you can classify it as a "gateway drug" IMO.

more power to ye, but irl i doubt labour wud act do this

lmtduffy

liberal wrote: »

404 both of them

Fixed?

The pat rabbite one is about 6 minutes in,

Akrasia

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

It's been pretty blatant since the law was drawn up that this is to make more people go to the pub.
Really bloody disgusting really. I don't know one single person who actually supports this. You either run out of beer or you buy more than you normally would have. That's all that happens.
If anything, it exacerbates problem drinking..

I'd also be interested to find out the drink driving statistics between 9.30 and 10pm as people who have already had a few cans decide to go to the off licence for some 'just in case' beer before it closes

djpbarry

The report of the Government Alcohol Advisory Group (March 2008), upon which the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008 was based, is available to download here (pdf file).

liberal

djpbarry wrote: »

The report of the Government Alcohol Advisory Group (March 2008), upon which the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008 was based, is available to download here (pdf file).

thank you sir, now we're talking

thebman

djpbarry wrote: »

The report of the Government Alcohol Advisory Group (March 2008), upon which the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008 was based, is available to download here (pdf file).

lol so much nonsense, I especially loved this part.

The Group recommends that all licensees promote awareness and use of the Garda age card by demanding production of that card in preference to other forms of identification.

So these are the idiots responsible for me needing a garda age card when I'm 25 to buy alcohol in some stores (I know they only recommended it but why was it recommended when it is nonsense).

I have no problems providing id but to say that my drivers license or passport are not valid forms of id or are somehow not equal to a garda age card for proof of age is idiotic at best. The garda age card serves no purpose and should be scraped. Have a proper citizen id card that can store your driver license information on it too and make it fit in a bloody wallet.

Bob Z

liberal wrote: »

Hi lads,

This is my first post.

Could anyone explain to me the mechanics behind how the government changed the opening hours of Off Licences from 11pm to 10pm?

Which politicians put forward the idea and which suppourted it? Did anyone oppose it? Who does it serve? I have a theory that it came about due to pressure from the Vintners Association, I pressume this simply because I can't see any other group that it serves (pardon the pun), it blantantly has no impact on underage drinking as the under-agers are all ready well plastered by 10pm having got the drink earlier (when i was a young roughian we used to get our drink days in advance).

I'd be satisfied with even one good reason for the change, but I can't think of one.

Thanks and forgive my poor spelling!

I dont know about if closing is helpful but i think the fact that off licenses now open later has done some good in that its harder for people to get a drink earlier in the morning

Bob Z

Bob Z wrote: »

I dont know about if closing is helpful but i think the fact that off licenses now open later has done some good in that its harder for people to get a drink earlier in the morning

Yeah, because everyone was dying for that drink in the morning.

djpbarry

Bob Z wrote: »

I dont know about if closing is helpful but i think the fact that off licenses now open later has done some good in that its harder for people to get a drink earlier in the morning

Why is that good?

You've actually reminded me of this section of the report, which appears to be rather contradictory:

3.14 The Group notes that off-sales of alcohol on Sundays are permitted only after half past midday. This means that people who may purchase groceries or newspapers earlier in the day are not permitted to purchase alcohol products. The Group considers that this amounts to an inconvenience rather than a meaningful restriction on the availability of alcohol and recommends that the 10.30 a.m. to 10.00 p.m. time limit apply to off-licences and mixed trading premises on both weekdays and Sundays.

3.15 While mixed trading premises are bound by the same closing times as off-licences, current rules permit mixed trading premises to sell alcohol from 7.30 a.m. on weekdays, i.e. 3 hours before the commencement of normal trading hours. The Group considers that such early-morning sales of alcohol should no longer be permitted and recommends that off-sales between 7.30 a.m. and 10.30 a.m. be prohibited.

This doesn’t make any sense. Alcohol should be available before 12.30 p.m. on Sundays to avoid any inconvenience to consumers, but it should be unavailable before 10.30 a.m. Why? These times seem to me to be completely arbitrary.

syklops

Bob Z wrote: »

I dont know about if closing is helpful but i think the fact that off licenses now open later has done some good in that its harder for people to get a drink earlier in the morning

I can tell you have never worked night shifts. I remember coming out of Intel a few years ago after doing a shift. It was about 7am in the morning, and all I wanted was a nice cold beer before I got my head down. I had an almight argument with the guy behind the counter in Statoil because he would not let me buy one can of lager. It wasnt his fault of course, but the law is idiotic.

I learnt the hard way to always have cans in the fridge, but why are they called convenience stores if you can only buy certain items when some 85 year old pioneer in dublin says you can.

Sleepy

Virtually every premises with an off-licence will have a case of drinkable beer at a sub €20 price most times you go into them. Why would anyone bother doing anything but stocking up at home these days? I know I've two different cases of beer at home at the moment...

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

Virtually every premises with an off-licence will have a case of drinkable beer at a sub €20 price most times you go into them. Why would anyone bother doing anything but stocking up at home these days? I know I've two different cases of beer at home at the moment...

Party in yours then!

djpbarry

Sleepy wrote: »

Virtually every premises with an off-licence will have a case of drinkable beer at a sub €20 price most times you go into them. Why would anyone bother doing anything but stocking up at home these days?

I don't know about you, but I don't really want to be hauling a case of beer home with me from the shops. I just buy what I can carry (with the rest of the groceries).

Sleepy

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't know about you, but I don't really want to be hauling a case of beer home with me from the shops. I just buy what I can carry (with the rest of the groceries).

Oh, I agree that the policy is worthless and that the legistlation wouldn't have been passed in a nation where they didn't elect their publicans to rule the country. Just that it's easily circumvented. TBH, I haven't actually noticed the impact of this on me to date.

thebigcheese22

It has had a very noticeable impact on me, and anyone who works night shifts. I work in the banqueting department of a hotel and when i finish work, i don't have the option of buying a few beers to have at home with friends. It's the most ridiculous law enacted in some time (and Fianna Fail have been in charge for 12 years, so thats some achievement!)

djpbarry

Sleepy wrote: »

Oh, I agree that the policy is worthless and that the legistlation wouldn't have been passed in a nation where they didn't elect their publicans to rule the country. Just that it's easily circumvented. TBH, I haven't actually noticed the impact of this on me to date.

Fair enough, but it has had an impact on me and I've already written to the Minister to voice my protest (I suggest others do the same). I often work late (until about 21:30 - 22:00) and, as I said earlier, I simply don't have the means to get cases of beer home, so I just buy what I can carry (or what I intend to drink).

Bob Z

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Yeah, because everyone was dying for that drink in the morning.

Yes i know 1 or 2 people who would start drinking as soon the off license would open(most times they would get served earlier). They were glad when they couldnt get served that early anymore.

Steviemak

Bob Z wrote: »

Yes i know 1 or 2 people who would start drinking as soon the off license would open(most times they would get served earlier). They were glad when they couldnt get served that early anymore.

So idiots like that should spoil it for everyone else?? Why not close Off licences altogether - that way your friends would be delighted :rolleyes:

thebman

Advise them to go to AA if they have much of a problem.

Het-Field

What do you expect when you have raving conservatives like Mary Hanifin and Brian Lenihan sitting at the cabinet table ?