Common trend of blaming government

Kevster

Hi,

I don't understand how short-sighted everyone is - in every nation - when they criticise their government about the recession. It's a global thing, not national. It would have happened if any governmental party was in charge, and we shouldn't be ****ing pointing the blame at the government all of the time. The respected parties should each open up and communicate more with each other about how to proceed with this.

I also think that spending our way out of a recession is a bad idea, and has only happened because governments have been under pressure by the public. Each nation should have taken more time with regard to this instead of tossing billions here and billions there. It's making a mockery of the financial system that we've built our success on.

In my opinion, the entire system will have to change for us to get out of this. Life cannot go on the way it is, on numerous fronts Climate, food, business-organisation, etc).

Kevin

drunkmonkey

who else are we going to blame, the Government are charged with running the country and they made a complete mess of it, they amount of money squandered is criminal...The opposition are even worse, there not even capable or putting the worst government in the history of the state out of power....out political system is not working for the people. It's our fault we helped support it...

meglome

Well firstly we should be blaming ourselves for voting in people who were blatantly doing things that were highly risky and often stupid. That said our government wouldn't even listen to the slightest criticism of what they were doing and now we're reaping the rewards of that. The global situation has made things much worse here but our property bubble was over so we wouldn't be balancing the books either way. I was delighted to see Fine Gael coming out with positive suggestions today instead of just constantly sniping at the government.

We need to make bold decisions now or suffer the consequences for a long time to come. I just can't see our current government making these bold moves, not even close. I'm really hoping for the best but the signs are not good.

Kevster

I don't agree that as much money as you are inferring was 'squandered'. A lot has been done to improve the infrastructure of this country within the past decade even. Do you not remember Dublin 10 years ago? - It was a dump. The current government has done great things for this country, and it's simply not their fault that things have come to be as they are; just as it isn't Labour's fault over in the UK.

I think that the general public has responsibility too. We have all been 'spend-thrift' in the past. If we couldn't see this recession coming, then why should the government have? It's an inherent problem with the current system, and that's why we need huge overhauls worldwide in how things are run.

Kevster

meglome wrote: »

Well firstly we should be blaming ourselves for voting in people who were blatantly doing things that were highly risky and often stupid.

That's the type of attitude that I'm basing this thread on. it annoys me to hear such comments because - to me - it sounds like you are short-sighted in what you are saying. Would you rather the government just reserved all our cash and never embarked on successful projects such as the NDP programme?; the LUAS?; the M50 upgrade?; etc.

mumhaabu

Fianna Fail has been in Government since 1997 and oversaw the Celtic Tiger MKI from 1996 to 2001; Ireland entered a period of contraction in 2002 thanks to the global War on Terror and associated troubles. From 2003 to 2008 we relied entirely on a Property Driven Boom and we living in a Zombie economy. Ireland joined the EURO and then surrendered control of our Interest Rates to the German Federal Government, The EURO is a currency of German Hegemony and the rest of Europe has no real say in what happens. Adolf Hitler would be proud.

We then voted No to NICE and were told there would be no influx of immigrants into Ireland and guess what we voted no and were sold the same lies and voted Yes then like idiots. Fastforward and Ireland is flooded by a surge of immigrants from Eastern Europe ammounting to at least 300,000 and this added to pressure on wages further fueling the already heated property sector as the buy to let market to off for to the house Pavel and his contruction gang who were here building more houses.

They then try to allow forther control of our country to the German Empire that is the EU but Irish people were not fooled and must honour our Patriotic dead who rose againt tyranny in 1916 by voting to Keep Ireland independent from the German European Empire.

So Yes I blame the government because they have f8cked this country propery and like an abused wife the Irish electorate keeps coming back for more. When will people wake up and see the crying shame that is happening and go back to our roots of not tolerating this. If Ireland was any other country our Entire Cabinet and Leaders would be executed for what is happening to Ireland. Why were we not OK with the English here screwing us over but are perfectly fine with the heinous crime Fianna Fail is commiting against the Irish state and Irish people, we fought for freedom not this. Fianna Fail brought the Country to its knees during the Economic War of the 1930's and are today doing the same, Irish people should hang their heads in shame to tolerate this. We are nothing better than Zimbabwe but at least they are trying to oust a leader, we could oust ours in milliseconds if someone had to the balls to take them on.

cm2000

[QUOTE=mumhaabu;59575208
We then voted No to NICE and were told there would be no influx of immigrants into Ireland and guess what we voted no and were sold the same lies and voted Yes then like idiots. Fastforward and Ireland is flooded by a surge of immigrants from Eastern Europe ammounting to at least 300,000 and this added to pressure on wages further fueling the already heated property sector as the buy to let market to off for to the house Pavel and his contruction gang who were here building more houses.[/QUOTE]
Explain to me how exactly ADDING 300,000 people to the workforce pushes wages up? A larger workforce pushes wages down!

[QUOTE=mumhaabu;59575208
If Ireland was any other country our Entire Cabinet and Leaders would be executed for what is happening to Ireland. [/QUOTE]
Whats happening to Ireland is pretty damn similar to whats happening across the world. People think only the financial crisis was a global thing but so was the property boom as you can see in the US the UK, Eastern Europe etc.
[QUOTE=mumhaabu;59575208
We are nothing better than Zimbabwe but at least they are trying to oust a leader, we could oust ours in milliseconds if someone had to the balls to take them on.[/QUOTE]
Wooo! military coup!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

mal1

Maybe we such allocate a little more blame to corporate greed. Everybody seems to be getting distracted by the government. Maybe the media is to blame?

Real power resides in private banks, industry etc and is supported by their command of the press.

It's like John Dewey said, 'Politics is the shadow cast on society by big business'

dave-higgz

The buck stops at Brian's desk, FULL STOP

Yes, people were given mortgages they couldn't afford
Yes, People took mortgages they couldn't afford.
Yes, property developers were let loose to speculate, and create the largest bubble a country of our size has ever seen.
Yes, we all accepted high house prices and purchased them at ridiculous costs.
Yes, most of us believed the the boom would last forever, even though the best economists said it wouldn't!
Yes, we all bought into cheap credit
etc. etc. etc. etc.

However the present government in power for 12 years and counting let this happen and they did nothing to stop it. They could have reversed all these problems above and we'd be in a better position to weather the global recession.

Blame:
Irish government: 55%
international problems: 45%

I think that's a fair way to look at this

meglome

Kevster wrote: »

That's the type of attitude that I'm basing this thread on. it annoys me to hear such comments because - to me - it sounds like you are short-sighted in what you are saying. Would you rather the government just reserved all our cash and never embarked on successful projects such as the NDP programme?; the LUAS?; the M50 upgrade?; etc.

I'm not in any way saying the infrastructure projects were a bad thing in themselves. However there was huge waste on many of these projects. Seriously I run a small business and I wouldn't dream of doing work that wasn't on a fixed price contract and yet our government saw fit not to do this. 'Amazingly' when they did switch to fixed price contracts the jobs were finished more quickly and for less, who would have thunk it. This is one of the many reasons I haven't voted for the government parties in several years. It was obvious what they were doing was stupid but no one wanted to listen, the boom was never going to end. Except it did in every other country in the world that had similar booms and strangely in the end it did here, who would have thunk it.

meglome

mal1 wrote: »

Maybe we such allocate a little more blame to corporate greed. Everybody seems to be getting distracted by the government. Maybe the media is to blame?

Real power resides in private banks, industry etc and is supported by their command of the press.

It's like John Dewey said, 'Politics is the shadow cast on society by big business'

And strangely it appears no one broke any rules in the corporate free for all. Why is that exactly? Who was at the helm exactly?

thebigcheese22

meglome wrote: »

And strangely it appears no one broke any rules in the corporate free for all. Why is that exactly? Who was at the helm exactly?

Some Fianna Fail benefactor obviously!

Op, of course the Gov is responsible for the mess we find ourselves in now, they drove the property bubble - thats exactly what it was, a bubble!

Nothing that the Gov did was sustainable, from lowering taxes to increasing expenditure exponentially...it is Fianna Fail's fault. Simple as.

zootroid

Kevster wrote: »

I don't agree that as much money as you are inferring was 'squandered'. A lot has been done to improve the infrastructure of this country within the past decade even. Do you not remember Dublin 10 years ago? - It was a dump. The current government has done great things for this country, and it's simply not their fault that things have come to be as they are; just as it isn't Labour's fault over in the UK.

I think that the general public has responsibility too. We have all been 'spend-thrift' in the past. If we couldn't see this recession coming, then why should the government have? It's an inherent problem with the current system, and that's why we need huge overhauls worldwide in how things are run.

I take it you vote Fianna Fail then? :rolleyes:

First of all, yes, there is a global recession, but our recession is much worse as our economy was built on a property bubble. Economic commentators were advising over the last 5 years or so of the countries over-reliance on the construction industry. Whatever happened to only being allowed to borrow about 3 times your salary, and mortgages being repaid over 20 years? At the height of the "boom" people were getting 100% mortgages, being repaid over 35 years. There are numerous examples of property market crashes in other countries, as well as the advice of the ESRI among others, and yet the government did nothing as they want to believe it would happen.

Secondly, about your point that governments shouldn't borrow to stimulate their economies. I don't think there is a once size fits all strategy for every economy, but in a lot of cases this is necessary to kickstart the economy, as described by Keynesian economic theory. I don't think it would work so well in Ireland as we are a small open economy, and pumping money into the economy through a fiscal stimulus is likely to leave the country through imports. We simply do not produce the goods that we consume. Instead we need to return to a competitive cost base so our exports are more competitive.

Lastly, the waste and mis-management of tax-payers money is scandalous. There have been improvements in the infrastructure over the last number of years, but many have been ill thought out, over-budget and delivered too slowly. For example, the Luas lines do not connect. The Dublin port tunnel is too small to accommodate certain types of truck. Both went over budget. And lastly, where I come from, a ring road was started in the 80's. It was finished last year. These are all off the top of my head. There were also the scandals of e-voting machines, the PPARS system, the fact that hospital care in this country is abysmal compared to other developed countries, and a very average educational system (one university ranks in the top 50 in the world - Trinity).

Do you really think that a government that has been in power for 12 years should not accept the blame for all these failings? I haven't even mentioned the lack of regulation of the banks yet, or cronies receiving golden handshakes!!

meglome

mumhaabu wrote: »

Fianna Fail has been in Government since 1997 and oversaw the Celtic Tiger MKI from 1996 to 2001; Ireland entered a period of contraction in 2002 thanks to the global War on Terror and associated troubles. From 2003 to 2008 we relied entirely on a Property Driven Boom and we living in a Zombie economy.

I agree.

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland joined the EURO and then surrendered control of our Interest Rates to the German Federal Government, The EURO is a currency of German Hegemony and the rest of Europe has no real say in what happens. Adolf Hitler would be proud.

You mean it was those evil Germans again making us pour fuel on the fire of cheap credit. Making us give tax incentives to property speculate. There was me thinking it was our government for a minute, silly me.

mumhaabu wrote: »

We then voted No to NICE and were told there would be no influx of immigrants into Ireland and guess what we voted no and were sold the same lies and voted Yes then like idiots. Fastforward and Ireland is flooded by a surge of immigrants from Eastern Europe ammounting to at least 300,000 and this added to pressure on wages further fueling the already heated property sector as the buy to let market to off for to the house Pavel and his contruction gang who were here building more houses.

They then try to allow forther control of our country to the German Empire that is the EU but Irish people were not fooled and must honour our Patriotic dead who rose againt tyranny in 1916 by voting to Keep Ireland independent from the German European Empire.

Hmm where to start on this rubbish.

I didn't notice people complaining that these immigrants were doing all their dirty work for them. Yeah give the ****ty jobs to the immigrants. But suddenly we the Irish people want to do these ****ting jobs again, don't suppose it was being laid off from our overpaid cushy jobs.

Last I looked we have a constitution so anything we did here we did to ourselves.

mumhaabu wrote: »

So Yes I blame the government because they have f8cked this country propery and like an abused wife the Irish electorate keeps coming back for more. When will people wake up and see the crying shame that is happening and go back to our roots of not tolerating this. If Ireland was any other country our Entire Cabinet and Leaders would be executed for what is happening to Ireland. Why were we not OK with the English here screwing us over but are perfectly fine with the heinous crime Fianna Fail is commiting against the Irish state and Irish people, we fought for freedom not this. Fianna Fail brought the Country to its knees during the Economic War of the 1930's and are today doing the same, Irish people should hang their heads in shame to tolerate this. We are nothing better than Zimbabwe but at least they are trying to oust a leader, we could oust ours in milliseconds if someone had to the balls to take them on.

I heard it was the Germans that made us vote for them again and again.

Sabre0001

Kevster wrote: »

That's the type of attitude that I'm basing this thread on. it annoys me to hear such comments because - to me - it sounds like you are short-sighted in what you are saying. Would you rather the government just reserved all our cash and never embarked on successful projects such as the NDP programme?; the LUAS?; the M50 upgrade?; etc.

While I appreciate the projects undertaken, it would have been nice if they came in on time, on (or under) budget or actually worked - Hello HSE Wage computer, electronic voting, etc...

Darragh29

Kevster wrote: »

Hi,

I don't understand how short-sighted everyone is - in every nation - when they criticise their government about the recession. It's a global thing, not national. It would have happened if any governmental party was in charge, and we shouldn't be ****ing pointing the blame at the government all of the time. The respected parties should each open up and communicate more with each other about how to proceed with this.

I also think that spending our way out of a recession is a bad idea, and has only happened because governments have been under pressure by the public. Each nation should have taken more time with regard to this instead of tossing billions here and billions there. It's making a mockery of the financial system that we've built our success on.

In my opinion, the entire system will have to change for us to get out of this. Life cannot go on the way it is, on numerous fronts Climate, food, business-organisation, etc).

Kevin

And who are we paying to regulate the financial system???

dave-higgz

I accept that a stimulus package for Ireland could just be a boost of imports however I feel that we do need some sort of kick-start. Schools need to be repaired, hospitals need to be built and broadband needs to be rolled out. I believe investing the money in these things and more, will do us great benefits in the future. Even if that means running up a larger national debt.

I am only 16 years old now but I plan to partake in this "smart economy". If such a society is to exist in my working future the plans need to be acted on now! I don't mind paying back this money in the form of higher taxes in my future.

We have ourselves to blame too. How many of the people being let go have saved up a good amount for such a rainy day? Very few it seems despite being paid the highest wages ever.

We spent all our money like maniacs and when our own money ran out we borrowed like maniacs to buy things like BTL appartments. I mean, I know some lads with property abroad who make less than the average industrial wage for god's sake!

Now I think the government were a reflection of ourselves during this period - Incompetent fools who were handed a lot of money to burn

portomar

Kevster wrote: »

Hi,

I don't understand how short-sighted everyone is - in every nation - when they criticise their government about the recession....

I also think that spending our way out of a recession is a bad idea, and has only happened because governments have been under pressure by the public... Each nation should have taken more time with regard to this instead of tossing billions here and billions there. It's making a mockery of the financial system that we've built our success on.

kevster, heres why i am blaming the government: they spent EVERY CENT made off stamp duty during the height of the boom on hiring more civil servants. EVERY.CENT. how did they think they were going to pay these same civil servants when the stamp duty bonanza came to a halt?? thats where our sickening deficit comes from. answer me why that shouldnt be leveled at the government?

mumhaabu wrote: »

From 2003 to 2008 we relied entirely on a Property Driven Boom and we living in a Zombie economy. Ireland joined the EURO and then surrendered control of our Interest Rates to the German Federal Government, The EURO is a currency of German Hegemony and the rest of Europe has no real say in what happens. Adolf Hitler would be proud.

how dya reckon we'd be doing without the euro mate?? heres a little clue, Google the words 'iceland', 'bankrupt', 'imf', 'sh*thouse' or some similar words and you should get a clue. the rest of your post is barely worth my time ripping to shreds

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

these are the parts i was giving you the thanks for DF! while i dont agree (as you know!) that we should have intentionally downsized the public sector, being fiscally responsible about it, such as oh i don't know... only hiring people you can afford to pay in the future...may have been prudent. the downturn internationally isnt the govs fault, our public finances being in the toilet, factually are their fault.

portomar

from this:

'The Department of Finance said last night a letter will be issued today to all secretaries general and other agency heads outlining a decision taken by the Cabinet on Sunday to impose an immediate and indefinite public-sector jobs embargo. Exceptions would require the personal sanction of the Minister for Finance.'

good job lads, making the tough decisions....bout 10 years too late. if i see brian lenihan, bertie ahern or brian cowen in public, i'll resist the urge to assault them, but it'll take most of my strength.

Kevster

Good replies you guys... ...as is typical with Boards, I was expecting sheer abuse and idiotic replies but all have been intelligent ones so far (and ones that I cannot argue with). Anyway, it's 7:16AM and I gotta get my ass to college.

Have a nice day and take care,
Kevin

gurramok

Kevster, its both National and Global.

The housing(all construction) market which comprised 25% of our economy started to collapse in mid 2006. Other sustainable economies are normally around 8%.

Credit crunch began in Autumn 2007. And then Sterling took a hit. We're been hammered on 3 fronts. Ireland was the first EU country to go into recession early last year. Simple as. The govt have a right to be blamed on the housing bubble.

Akrasia

Kevster wrote: »

Hi,

I don't understand how short-sighted everyone is - in every nation - when they criticise their government about the recession. It's a global thing, not national. It would have happened if any governmental party was in charge, and we shouldn't be ****ing pointing the blame at the government all of the time. The respected parties should each open up and communicate more with each other about how to proceed with this.

I also think that spending our way out of a recession is a bad idea, and has only happened because governments have been under pressure by the public. Each nation should have taken more time with regard to this instead of tossing billions here and billions there. It's making a mockery of the financial system that we've built our success on.

In my opinion, the entire system will have to change for us to get out of this. Life cannot go on the way it is, on numerous fronts Climate, food, business-organisation, etc).

Kevin

This is the governments fault. Not only did they not dampen the housing bubble (which is the real primary cause of our current crisis) but they did everything they could to fuel the hysteria right up to the end of last year with their ludicrous 'Home choice Loans' scheme (state sponsored sub prime) at the cost of hundreds of millions in a time when there were cutbacks in other areas (luckily there were very few people stupid enough to take up the scheme so it didn't cost as much as it could have)

The state had a responsibility to oversee the economy and they utterly failed in that with fiscal policy using the logic of a 5 year old "I'll spend it when I have it"

ednwireland

Akrasia wrote: »

This is the governments fault. Not only did they not dampen the housing bubble (which is the real primary cause of our current crisis) but they did everything they could to fuel the hysteria right up to the end of last year with their ludicrous 'Home choice Loans' scheme (state sponsored sub prime) at the cost of hundreds of millions in a time when there were cutbacks in other areas (luckily there were very few people stupid enough to take up the scheme so it didn't cost as much as it could have)

The state had a responsibility to oversee the economy and they utterly failed in that with fiscal policy using the logic of a 5 year old "I'll spend it when I have it"

+1 the gov has fuelled the property boom with tax breaks etc, there are now empty houses and half built estates across the country on section 23. the only idea this gov had was to keep fuelling the property boom and hope somehow that the money kept rolling in, stamp duty vat on the build and interior fittings.
(england built 160,000 houses in 2007 Ireland 80,000 i think)
the only thing i can think off was they didnt dare scale it back because they didnt (and still dont) want to make the hard decisions on spending (unlike the company i work for where directors have taken a 20% pay cut we were on a 3 day week revenue is rising again so back on 5 day week next month) if they looked at the big picture 5 years ago they would have scaled back their spending and focused on service delivery and infrastructure, rather than giving themselves huge pay rises.
BUT they wouldnt have been re-elected, sorry but thats the truth they did everything to get into power and stuff the country thats what i'm angry with them about

r3nu4l

Kevster wrote: »

I don't agree that as much money as you are inferring was 'squandered'. A lot has been done to improve the infrastructure of this country within the past decade even. Do you not remember Dublin 10 years ago? - It was a dump. The current government has done great things for this country, and it's simply not their fault that things have come to be as they are; just as it isn't Labour's fault over in the UK.

I do think that there was a lot of squandering of monies. For example, the Government announced that for every child in the country under 6 years of age the parents would be given €1000.

That sounds great until you realise that it was given to parents regardless of whether they earned €20k or €200k per year. There were thousands of families in the country who simply did not need that money but were given it anyway. What about means testing? Why was that forsaken? For the simple reason that giving money to kids is a vote-winner. Nothing more. That was a criminal waste of money, imo.

sovtek

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

We have ourselves to blame too. How many of the people being let go have saved up a good amount for such a rainy day? Very few it seems despite being paid the highest wages ever.

Who had the money to save with the cost of living here (people like "fingers" of course) unless you boarded yourself up in a dark room and never left the house?
It doesn't matter how high the wages are when they aren't enough to buy anything. It's known as "real wages" and Ireland had some of the lowest in Western Europe.

markpb

Kevster wrote: »

I don't understand how short-sighted everyone is - in every nation - when they criticise their government about the recession. It's a global thing, not national. It would have happened if any governmental party was in charge, and we shouldn't be ****ing pointing the blame at the government all of the time.

There are several reasons why a global recession is hit Ireland harder than other counties and they're all avoidable.

Instead of focusing on home grown industries and companies, the government concentrated all their efforts on getting multinational companies to set up here. There are two problems with this. The first is that they're the most footloose of all companies, they can leave just as easily as they came here. The second is that many of them only set up offices here to use as tax clearing houses. They were putting billions through the irish tax system but very little into the economy apart from that.

They didn't realise (or care) that the housing market was overheating. This pushed up the cost of living to the point where we cannot compete in several markets because labour costs have made us uncompetitive.

The housing bubble generated large amounts of tax for the government who then based their day to day spending on windfall income. The first thing any junior cert business student learns is not to pay ESB bills with lottery wins because you can't guarantee the wins will end. This is exactly what the government did and when the windfall came to an end, the day to day things (civil & public sector wages) still have to be paid.

I could go on about how under-impressive the Luas is compared to other similar sized cities, how poor the general public transport, education and health services are but I won't. If you think none of this is FF's fault, I despair for the country's future.

SeaFields

Firstly, it must be acknowledged that global factors are playing a massive part in the problems we face at the moment. We are the most globalised society in the world apparently so an international credit crunch and slow down was going to hit us hard in any case.

HOWEVER...FF built up the Celtic tiger with our own money. 20 year olds being told "to buy a house now" or you will never be able to afford one. It fueled a hysteria. Now these houses are worth substantially less than what was paid for them and young couples have mortgages they will be paying off for 35 years. Bertie and his developer buddies in the Galway races tent were laughing all the way to their (foreign) banks.

AND They were warned that this bubble cannot continue as it is going to burst at some stage. What was FF's response? Bertie told anyone who thought the economy was in trouble to go off and commit suicide.

AND the waste of money. NDP projects going substantially over budget and over schedule. Electronic voting machines that cost €50m and are now in some warehouse where no doubt some FF associate is being paid handsomely to store them. (€50m - How many cervical screening programs would this provide?!) A vastly overstaffed and under performing public service - Top heavy through "jobs for the boys" and under pressure at front line services.

Lastly (nearly there now ) don't overly blame the government, blame ourselves too. WE voted them in again at the last general election with our SSIA's in our back pockets thinking it wouldnt end either. NUFF SAID!

El Stuntman

Kevster wrote: »

Would you rather the government just reserved all our cash and never embarked on successful projects such as the NDP programme?; the LUAS?; the M50 upgrade?; etc.

none of these projects can remotely be considered 'successful' in terms of outcomes

NDP programme - years behind and billions overspent

LUAS - two lines that don't join up or link with other modes of transport, non-integrated ticketing

M50 upgrade - fiasco of the toll bridge buyout, also why didn't they build the damn thing to future levels of traffic in the first place?

seriously man, critical thinking and assessment is greatly lacking from your posts

Kevster

Kevster wrote: »

Hi,

I don't understand how short-sighted everyone is - in every nation - when they criticise their government about the recession. It's a global thing, not national. It would have happened if any governmental party was in charge, and we shouldn't be ****ing pointing the blame at the government all of the time. The respected parties should each open up and communicate more with each other about how to proceed with this.

Its true that the effects on the economy are a global thing, and every nation in the world is experiencing major effects. Its also true that regardless of which government we voted in, we would still be experiencing levels of downturn.

But.

The government is responsible for the running of the country. The state of finances that Ireland currently has is far worse than it should have been, if the economy had been correctly managed. We have seen numerous scandals recently which highlight certain area's which the government has failed to control, which frankly they should have been able to. And even before the recession, and the downturn in our economy, there were plenty of other scandals brought to light about governmental ineffectiveness, and mistakes.

While Ireland was reeling in the money, the government spent like crazy. They didn't seek to get jobs done with the minimum of cost. Research of options available just wasn't performed correctly. Nowadays, I'm constantly hearing politicians talking about spending money more effectively, and yet when we had plenty of money in the economy, nobody spoke like this. Hundreds of companies, haven't paid any tax in over five years. The government is owed millions in tax by people all over the country (and outside), and it was all let go.

If the problems with the downturn aren't the governments fault, then they are the fault of the Irish people. We have turned our eyes away from the corruption and ineffectiveness of our government. We have listened to reports from Tribunals declaring guilt, but have never demanded actual responsibility from our politicians. We discuss, and complain, but nothing is ever forced to change. That is where our blame exists. But the government, and the politicians in charge are also directly responsible for taking the trust of the Irish people, and consistently abusing that trust.

jmayo

Kevster wrote: »

Good replies you guys... ...as is typical with Boards, I was expecting sheer abuse and idiotic replies but all have been intelligent ones so far (and ones that I cannot argue with). Anyway, it's 7:16AM and I gotta get my ass to college.

Have a nice day and take care,
Kevin

That's it I DEMAND college fees are re-instated :mad:

Perhaps kevster after you have lived a little, you will realise that you have been ridden sideways, backways and every which ways by FF and their governments.

Their inept handling of our economy, their selling out of our country's future in order to benefit developers, builders and bankers and their wastage of state funds in all the grossly overpriced and behind schedule projects you see as their achievements, has probably consigned you to either emigration or a life paying very high taxes.

Kevster

jmayo wrote: »

That's it I DEMAND college fees are re-instated :mad:

Perhaps kevster after you have lived a little, you will realise that you have been ridden sideways, backways and every which ways by FF and their governments.

Their inept handling of our economy, their selling out of our country's future in order to benefit developers, builders and bankers and their wastage of state funds in all the grossly overpriced and behind schedule projects you see as their achievements, has probably consigned you to either emigration or a life paying very high taxes.

Hmm, you just assumed incorrectly that I am a non fee-paying student when - in fact - I have been paying my own way through college for the past 4 years. Plus, I am in favour of bringing back college fees because there are a lot of ****ing wasters in college who don't deserve to be there.

If you are all claiming that our government was/is inept, then so is every other government in the world who presided over their home nation during the onset of the recession. Is that what you are saying?

zootroid

Kevster wrote: »

If you are all claiming that our government was/is inept, then so is every other government in the world who presided over their home nation during the onset of the recession. Is that what you are saying?

Kevster, I don't believe how you still don't get this. Perhaps this will help you understand:

Research from the Economic and Social Research Institute has blamed a mixture of bad policy mistakes and bad luck for the economic problems facing the country. The think-tank today published a note from four of its experts giving the preliminary findings of its research.

It identified three areas which it says must be addressed if the economy is to return to growth. These are a 'serious' loss of competitiveness, the structural imbalance in the government accounts and the banking system.

The report estimates that 'up to a half' of Ireland's current problems arise from the global financial and economic crisis - and would have happened regardless of budgetary policy over the last decade. But it says the bursting of the property bubble has made things much worse.

The ESRI estimates that the Government deficit is likely to top 10% of output this year, but argues that some of this will be wiped out when the world economy recovers. It says the Government must focus on the 6% to 8% which it describes as 'structural', or due to permanent changes in the economy.

The research says tax levels will have to be raised to compensate for the fall in property-linked taxes. It favours developing new sources of revenue such as taxes on carbon and property.

The report also argues against cutting large numbers of jobs in the health and education sector. 'It seems likely that the public would wish to preserve the existing standard of health care and education in the long run,' the research states, adding that spending cuts should focus on areas where services are inefficient or of low value.

On competitiveness, the ESRI research argues that a 'substantial reduction' in wage rates and other prices is needed, and urges a renegotiation of the national pay deal to reflect the dramatic fall in prices now underway.

In the long-term, the paper says Ireland's potential growth rate up to 2020 will average around 3% a year. This is lower than the 3.6% in its medium-term review of the economy published last year. The report says this is because the financial crisis and recession may have longer-term consequences for growth in the world economy.

'With a rapid restoration of competitiveness in 2009-10 a return to near full employment by the middle of the next decade would be possible,' the ESRI says.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0327/esri.html

Obviously we are going to be affected by a global recession. But the point is not only were we unprepared, but government policy over the last few years actually made things worse.

And, just so you know, not every country is as badly affected as Ireland is by the global recession. I'm currently in Australia, and the recession is just starting to take effect here. Australia was sheltered as it had been prudent, and had strong financial market regulations. Also, it is in a position to give a fiscal stimulus to the economy as it had built up large surpluses when the going was good, something which our government did not. We were running deficits while the country was at full employment for Christs sake. They just assumed the "good times" would continue indefinitely.

I'd suggest you drop this topic, as you're clearly trying to argue about something you know nothing about.

Kevster

I do/did understand that, zootroid. I just wanted to make sure that our government isn't the only one to blame for the 'mess', as people say. I also want people to realise that it wouldn't have been any different if Fianna Gael or Labour (or the Greens!) were running the government. My view on this whole thing is that it would have happened no matter who was in charge.

... ...How can we get ourselves out of the mess by using the same old habits of flogging/wasting money though? You've already seen how the governments have bailed out companies and how some of that money has only gone to paying bonuses. Surely - to God - they realise that a complete overhaul/review of the financial system is needed.

Kevin

Kevster

zootroid wrote: »

I'd suggest you drop this topic, as you're clearly trying to argue about something you know nothing about.

That hurt. What I suggest is that you come here and say that to my face, and then I might respect you more. You are the one who clearly knows nothing about something: Me. So, why make stupid/ignorant sentences like this?

G'day, as they say down there.

Kevin

Kevster

Plus, I am aware that not every country is affected by this. Well, every country IS affected, but to varying degrees. Why do I know this? - Because I watch the news every single day. I don't claim to know the ins-and-outs of economics because I have chosen a different career path. I'm just saying it as I see it, and I have learned things from you guys so far here. If you don't like what I'm saying - and have an aversion to it - then you should be the one to leave.

If a kid tries to learn something, do you just tell it to feck off? No, you educate him/her (it?! ). The same principal applies here. I'm not some arrogant fool who won't drop my argument despite what has been said. I'm on a learning mission.

Take care you guys,
Kevin

Kevster

Bah... ...I knew the good replies couldn't last long. You've ruined it zootroid. You're a true Boards.ie user: ignorant and quick to criticise everything, even if you agree with it.

I won't be checking back here you guys. Thanks to all who have replied except zootroid. i appreciarte the understanding and honesty.

Take care,
Kevin

jmayo

Kevster wrote: »

Hmm, you just assumed incorrectly that I am a non fee-paying student when - in fact - I have been paying my own way through college for the past 4 years. Plus, I am in favour of bringing back college fees because there are a lot of ****ing wasters in college who don't deserve to be there.

If you are all claiming that our government was/is inept, then so is every other government in the world who presided over their home nation during the onset of the recession. Is that what you are saying?

Well fair dues, you are paying your way and you have also copped on that 3rd level education should not be free for everyone.
You just can't see that our problems are different and the fact our economy is a shambles is due to our economy being dependent on construction related taxes which were used to create a huge public sector ?

Zootroid is right that you don't appear to know what you are talking about if you keep persevering with this ff party shi** that it is all a global recession and that is why we are in so much difficulties.
You haven't appeared to read any of the posts on here but still bleat the party line that it is global problem.

Is it a global problem that we have created more jobs in public sector over last 12 odd years than the IDA brought into the country ?
Who exactly is responsible for the fact that most of the jobs we created since 2002 were in construction and retail ?
Is it a global problem that out public spending now far outweighs our tax revenue, which has collapsed ?

Our economy was slowing down before the credit crunch which meant our banks could no longer lend huge chunks of cash to consumers to either buy rediculously overpriced property or other consumer goods like BMWs.
Who faciliated the property boom with tax breaks, tax abvoidance schemes for investors ?
If you can't see how our economy was based on cheap credit availability then zooroid is completly right.

Kevster wrote: »

...
If a kid tries to learn something, do you just tell it to feck off? No, you educate him/her (it?! ). The same principal applies here. I'm not some arrogant fool who won't drop my argument despite what has been said. I'm on a learning mission.

Take care you guys,
Kevin

If you want to learn how screwed up our economy has become read/listen to David McWilliams and George Lee, search out some of their old articles.
I know lots of people say they similify things too much and they do to an extent, but they also highlight the basics as to how badly run our economy had/has become.

Also search out an article by Morgan Kelly of UCD. He got slated in early 2008 or late 2007 for highlighting what was on the horizon.

PS stop listening to ff members and government minsiters trying to tell you it had shag all to do with them and it all the fault of US subprime market.
Actaully our financial institutions direct exposure to subprime was probably minimal, someone perhaps has figures ?
Our problems were homegrown created by our own developers, bankers, regulators, government and individual peoples greed to climb on the property ladder and the easy path to riches.

gurramok

Regarding other countries, yes a few have messed up too to varying degrees. The UK, US, Spain, Latvia for example have had housing bubbles which have had devastating impacts on their economies.

The UK also has a financial services reliance and that hit them hard. The rest of the developed countries(Germany, Japan etc), well, they are suffering because the consumer nations listed above cannot buy their goods despite the producer nations having solid export based economies.

Ireland does not have a solid export based economy, 92% of its exports are reliant of variable(Dell gone now) foreign MNC's and then we had 25% of the economy based on construction based activity(domestic issue). And that is why the producer countries will recover more than Ireland when the global upturn occurs as they have a solid base to recover from.

zootroid

jmayo wrote: »

Zootroid is right that you don't appear to know what you are talking about if you keep persevering with this ff party shi** that it is all a global recession and that is why we are in so much difficulties.
You haven't appeared to read any of the posts on here but still bleat the party line that it is global problem.

Is it a global problem that we have created more jobs in public sector over last 12 odd years than the IDA brought into the country ?
Who exactly is responsible for the fact that most of the jobs we created since 2002 were in construction and retail ?
Is it a global problem that out public spending now far outweighs our tax revenue, which has collapsed ?

Our economy was slowing down before the credit crunch which meant our banks could no longer lend huge chunks of cash to consumers to either buy rediculously overpriced property or other consumer goods like BMWs.
Who faciliated the property boom with tax breaks, tax abvoidance schemes for investors ?
If you can't see how our economy was based on cheap credit availability then zooroid is completly right.

Thank you jmayo, I feel somewhat vindicated!

Kevster, I don't mean to personally attack you, but I feel you're not listening to very persuasive arguements, nor are you looking at the evidence of what happened over the last few years. Of course political parties will try to have you believe whatever they want you to believe, be they FF, FG or whoever. But look for the evidence and analysis coming from independent sources. And if you still believe that the government had no role to play in our downfall, then I really don't think there's anything more I can say to convince you otherwise.

Kevster

Interesting replies in my absence. I was studying for exams. For the record, I don't believe a word out of any politicians mouth and I'm no FF supporter (in case any of you have thought that). Plus, I kept persevering with my argument because the majority of the first few replies here were just anecdotal 'blame FF', 'blame the government', etc. replies, which is not what I wanted.

In my opinion, 99% of politicians the world over are useless at their job. Then again, the people who are actually intelligent are not willing to step forward and get into politics. Instead, they sit on the sidelines moaning all of the time.

Kevin

Kevster

Kevster wrote: »

Interesting replies in my absence. I was studying for exams. For the record, I don't believe a word out of any politicians mouth and I'm no FF supporter (in case any of you have thought that). Plus, I kept persevering with my argument because the majority of the first few replies here were just anecdotal 'blame FF', 'blame the government', etc. replies, which is not what I wanted.

In my opinion, 99% of politicians the world over are useless at their job. Then again, the people who are actually intelligent are not willing to step forward and get into politics. Instead, they sit on the sidelines moaning all of the time.

Kevin

you say the same as the rest of them that 99% are useless at their jobs, and yet you seem to believe that you are somehow being different. You're not. You're the same. What have you done besides comment on the situation? :rolleyes:

Kevster

True, but part of my purpose here is to give out to people who just blame the Irish government for our problem. We're not exclusive in doing this though, because - as far as I can see - every other nation is just blaming their own government too.

On another note, I have noticed increased skepticism about trying to get out of this by pumping more money in. I thought that this was wrong when I first heard it being done, but politicians are under pressure to act quickly by the public. I think we're making a complete mockery of the global economy to be honest... ...the entire system has to change.

Kevin

Kevster

Kevster wrote: »

True, but part of my purpose here is to give out to people who just blame the Irish government for our problem. We're not exclusive in doing this though, because - as far as I can see - every other nation is just blaming their own government too.

Well, I'm amazed that you consider yourself worthy enough to "give out" to these people. Since you're doing the same as them. If you were doing something different, and actually contributing to the change you desire, I might find you more credible, but you're not.

On another note, I have noticed increased skepticism about trying to get out of this by pumping more money in. I thought that this was wrong when I first heard it being done, but politicians are under pressure to act quickly by the public. I think we're making a complete mockery of the global economy to be honest... ...the entire system has to change.

Kevin

The Irish government has never been able to efficiently spend the money it had before, so why would it be able to do so now? The point is that over the last 5 years we had more money than ever before to operate and improve this country. Instead of making use of what they had, they squandered the money in a hopeless manner and created a worse economic condition. Pumping more money in won't change the inherent problems with the way that this country operates. It's time to cut loose all the excess baggage that the government has built up over the last decade, and start looking to make this country successful through efficiency rather than, well, pure luck.

napapa

Kevster wrote: »

people who just blame the Irish government for our problem.Kevin

I blame the government for the pension levy (banker/developer bailout levy) introduced, and I will blame them in advance for the roasting I will receive come 7th April. They (FF) will force me to leave this country after educating me for 8 years.:eek:

And I voted the feicers in too :mad:

Het-Field

"Global economic crisis" has become a euphamism for Ireland's economic woes, in an attempt to fobb off the reality.

Ireland has seen

-Its competitive edge drop like a stone ina deep pond
-Its Creditworthiness hit the same level as Morocco
-Our unemployment figures outstrip our European Competitiors in a mad dash to the bottom
-The mass outflow of its formerly crucial Foreign Direct Investment, with the "Irish hero" Barack Obama claiming that Ireland will have to survive without it
-A nationalised, recapitalised and guaranteed banking sector
-Our recent International Downgrade
-A fumbling Government, who have fcuked up in consecutive budgets. Ensured that it continued to live on Stamp Duty and Capital Gains tax, and rebuking Michael McDowell for trying to rock this cosy cartel in 2006. They failed in suceeding in the dubious "social partnership process"They ave forced people out on the street. Have claimed that the "most vunrable" will be looked after, while not doing so. They have bowed to public pressure, and will continue to bow to vested interests
- an opposition (save Fine Gael) who's pre budgetary statements higlight the bankruptcy of economic nous on all sides of the house
-An absentee Taoiseach, Tanaiste, and Minster For Finance.

We are in a global crisis, but we are feeling it worst, and will continue to feel it.

Kevster

You know what guys? - I'm actually coming around to the fact that - yes - the Irish government has a big part to blame in this. I still feel sorry for them but, as far as I know, Ireland is one of the worst-hit in Europe (re: the recession). How could we have gone from one of the best economies (in the world) to this (rhetorical question).

One thing is for sure, Fianna Fáil are out the door come the next election, as are Labour in England, and every other party in other nations who have presided over their respected nation during the recession.

Kevin

Kevster

Kevster wrote: »

You know what guys? - I'm actually coming around to the fact that - yes - the Irish government has a big part to blame in this.

Rofl.

I still feel sorry for them but, as far as I know, Ireland is one of the worst-hit in Europe (re: the recession). How could we have gone from one of the best economies (in the world) to this (rhetorical question).

Worst hit? hmm.. only because we fell from so high to... wherever it is we'll end up. We certainly haven't hit bottom yet.

But I'd say there are worse off countries which already had massive problems with their economies during the time that Ireland was going strong, and now they're without support (Consider how little Ireland and other "successful" countries are contributing to the EU now to support less advantaged countries)

One thing is for sure, Fianna Fáil are out the door come the next election, as are Labour in England, and every other party in other nations who have presided over their respected nation during the recession.

Kevin

Don't be too sure.. I've heard these sort of comments every time there's an election, and the Irish people continue to suprise me. FF could easily get back in. People may complain about them right up to the elections, but they'll be easily swayed by their traditional leanings, and the usual BS election rhetoric.

I won't discount FF from getting in again, until the elections are actually over.