Joan Burton's exchange with Brian Lenihan

nesf

Some details in this article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0326/1224243452788.html?digest=1

Essentially Joan Burton is accusing Lenihan of corruption on the floor of the Dáil where conveniently TDs are protected from suit (i.e. you can for all intents and purposes accuse anyone of anything without any need to back it up and cannot be sued*). Honestly, I find this kind of behaviour reprehensible. The privilege that TDs have in the Dáil should be treated with respect and TDs should have enough class and muster enough decorum to not venture into territory where what they are saying is actionable outside the House while providing no evidence to substantiate their claims.


*There may be some legal limits on this that I am not aware of.

The_Minister

A furious Mr Lenihan replied: “You have accused me of corruption on the floor of this House. How dare you. Repeat it outside.”

If you didn't know about privilage, you could easily believe that he was offering to take it outside.:D

And it is pretty low, but tbh, its standard Labour rhetoric. They're just wetting themselves over the day when people realise that the biggest vested interest in the country are the public sector unions, and who do they give money to...

She refused to repeat it on morning Ireland when asked.

P. Breathnach

Let's see: Burton described the credit guarantee scheme as "a bailout for your friends at the bank", and Lenihan took it as an accusation of corruption, and invited her to "repeat it outside".

It's easy to interpret what she said as applying to Lenihan's party rather than to Lenihan, and it is easy to interpret it as an accusation of political misjudgement rather than one of corruption.

If she had said it to him in a television studio he might have bristled, but it would not have been a big deal. If he ran to the courts, they would almost certainly throw out any case he brought, possibly with some remarks about the inadvisibility of wasting the court's time.

ryatho

My interpretation is that she did not directly accuse him of corruption, but did allude to the very cosy relationship between FF, big developers and bankers - a fair enough point. Anytime someone highlights FF's obvious deficiencies they are lambasted ("you accused me of corruption" "you are unpatriotic" "you are damadging our international reputation") - I for one am glad there is someone like Joan Burton in the Dail who can bring them to task.

dresden8

And people used to think Lenihan was smart.

Just another FF tool promoted above his level of competence.

El Stuntman

dresden8 wrote: »

And people used to think Lenihan was smart.

Just another FF tool promoted above his level of competence.

hey, people used to think Cowen was smart

the scary thing is that, in comparison to his party colleagues, he is :eek:

leitrim lad

well im a member of ff and i think it is no harm to have someone like joan burton on the otherside to keep us in line,however i would not like to see her in brian lenehans seat ever,that would be the day the imf are called in.

Duffman

I'm no FF sympathiser but she is an awful, awful woman.

dresden8

leitrim lad wrote: »

well im a member of ff and i think it is no harm to have someone like joan burton on the otherside to keep us in line,however i would not like to see her in brian lenehans seat ever,that would be the day the imf are called in.

Is it not FF's job to keep themselves in line?

leitrim lad

yes but the likes of her ,gilmore and kenny keep ff on their toes

deadhead13

Methinks Brian Lenihan doth protest too much.

Zynks

If only she had rpeated it outside, we may have seen what is supposedly the competent side of Mr. Lenihan, which is the law. That would be a change.

brianthebard

Doubtful, he just couldn't think of a better comeback.

leitrim lad

just a question and im not being sarcastic we all know brian is a barrister, what trade did joan have or train in before politics

The_Minister

dresden8 wrote: »

And people used to think Lenihan was smart.

Just another FF tool promoted above his level of competence.

He is smart.
He is very smart, and a more than competent barrister.

He should never have been put in finance though.

P. Breathnach

leitrim lad wrote: »

just a question and im not being sarcastic we all know brian is a barrister, what trade did joan have or train in before politics

Accountant.

leitrim lad

so she is the obvios choice of financial spokesperson for her party,i do think herself and eamon gilmore have some valuable points but they are still not just good enough for a front line ministerial post

Red Alert

Joan Burton is actually much more qualified officially than he is in terms of finance. Her performances in the Dail show it - time after time she's got the figures to back up what she says. She doesn't mumble and look at the paper and hope the question goes away.

I think it would be dangerous to remove dail privilage. I think the libel laws in this country are draconian to say the least, and the latest bullying of media outlets in the wake of the phantom painting have shown just how dangerous an instrument they are. It would be an affront to democracy to take away TD's dail privilage.

old boy

terry wogan is more qualified than b.lenihan to be minister for finnance.

leitrim lad

even tough i am a ff member i do agree with the arguments made by labour about sme funding , they seem to have a great following of the sme sector and out of all the parties really want to get the banks lending to sme firms again, in turn to create employment, but no one seem to want to listen

johnnyskeleton

nesf wrote: »

Some details in this article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0326/1224243452788.html?digest=1

Essentially Joan Burton is accusing Lenihan of corruption on the floor of the Dáil where conveniently TDs are protected from suit (i.e. you can for all intents and purposes accuse anyone of anything without any need to back it up and cannot be sued*). Honestly, I find this kind of behaviour reprehensible. The privilege that TDs have in the Dáil should be treated with respect and TDs should have enough class and muster enough decorum to not venture into territory where what they are saying is actionable outside the House while providing no evidence to substantiate their claims.


*There may be some legal limits on this that I am not aware of.

Especially since, with the backing of a massive political party, she could have said it outside the dail and then put the ball in his court. If he decides to sue, she can put out her allegations in a public forum and let a judge decide. If he doesn't sue, the public can draw their own conclusions.

leitrim lad

i couldnt see him proceeding , if he were too would you not think that bertie,enda and biffo would already have the courts jammed up for atleast 5 years between themselves

Lockstep

leitrim lad wrote: »

so she is the obvios choice of financial spokesperson for her party,i do think herself and eamon gilmore have some valuable points but they are still not just good enough for a front line ministerial post

I;m surprised you have any time for Labour at all, given your attitude to the unions.

leitrim lad

as i said i do support their arguments for the sme sector i run a sme business myself, and i think that eamon gilmore is probably in the top 10 of the countries good politicains, i would rate joan burton in the top 20 ,but that doenst stop me following ff.

they are both better speakers that lenehan ,they get the point across with less missmanagment of big unnecessary wording

lostexpectation

how very dare you

CtrlSource

The_Minister wrote: »

He is smart.
He is very smart, and a more than competent barrister.

He should never have been put in finance though.

Agree to an extent but wouldn't say never. Ministers professions frequently don't coincide with their ministerial portfolios and at the end of the day, there are plenty of highly qualified civil servants in the DoF to do the sums

P. Breathnach wrote: »

[Joan Burton is an] Accountant.

leitrim lad wrote: »

so she is the obvios choice of financial spokesperson for her party

Charlie McCreevy was an accountant but i don't think that had anything to do with the ideological decisions he made through successive giveaway budgets, which i believe contributed significantly to the property bubble etc.

leitrim lad wrote: »

i do think herself and eamon gilmore have some valuable points but they are still not just good enough for a front line ministerial post

Disagree. Burton and Gilmore have held junior ministries before. He seems far more able though (hence his election to leadership). There appears to be quite a lot of talent in Labour right now from the grassroots up

jimi_t

What needs to be said has preceded me, I'm just quoting this one for posteriety

leitrim lad wrote: »

however i would not like to see her in brian lenehans seat ever,that would be the day the imf are called in.

Say what you need to say about Labour but at least acknowledge that they are a far more competent and honest political party than FF can ever. Even a primary school student could do a like with like comparison as to people associated with either party who were caught soliciting bribes, or lying in tribunals etc...

P. Breathnach

CtrlSource wrote: »

... Charlie McCreevy was an accountant but i don't think that had anything to do with the ideological decisions he made through successive giveaway budgets, which i believe contributed significantly to the property bubble etc...

I think it had a little to do with it -- just a little. The key point is that he is an accountant, and not an economist, so he did not take an economist's strategic view.

The best single thing he did was to create the National Pensions Reserve Fund. That is largely an accountant's type of measure: the creation of a fund to meet expected future liabilities.

His ideology, however, had little to do with his occupational background, and much to do with his values.

nice_guy80

the Fianna Fail TDs and ministers are well able to throw dirt from their side of the house too.

its what the Dail privilege is all about

Raiser

old boy wrote: »

terry wogan is more qualified than b.lenihan to be minister for finnance.

Bluebottles on shít are more qualified than Brian Lenihan to be Minister for Finance.

- This was known by some, is becoming clearer to all by the day and will be sickeningly apparent on April 7th.

God help us all.

scientific1982

leitrim lad wrote: »

well im a member of ff and i think it is no harm to have someone like joan burton on the otherside to keep us in line,however i would not like to see her in brian lenehans seat ever,that would be the day the imf are called in.

Hey Leitrim lad, just to remind you of your IMF comment.

BlaasForRafa

scientific1982 wrote: »

Hey Leitrim lad, just to remind you of your IMF comment.

Lol, long range burn!

Zombie thread....


Gets a bullet in the head