Unified EPG from Combo solutions?

dgently

This is a pretty basic question from someone who doesn't have a combo box!

A friend recently bought one of the Panasonic Freesat LCDs and is (really) enjoying having freesat & Irish DTT from one remote on what he says is a great telly.

I was surpised when he told me he could not see all channels together on the same EPG, and instead had to switch source to see the two epgs separately.

Is he missing something, and is there a "unified" EPG (ie mix of DTT & Sat channels in the one EPG )offered by any of the combo STBs?

STB

In short combo boxes dont display freesat data and even if it did it couldnt be edited to add an RTE DTT channel.

Freesat is a specifically built menu system by the BBC and ITV using MHEG5. This drives the EPG. It is broadcast as a satelitte signal over dvb-s/s2 and populates the menu with data. It looks like this.



RTE are not on freesat.


RTE are broadcasting digitally but terrestrially over dvb-t using an aerial to receive. It also uses MHEG5 but has its own menu system different to freesat obviously. It looks like this.




As the pani is both freesat and dtt you have to switch between the tuner cards per the panasonic menu.

To have both freesat and dtt on one viewing source without the use of set top boxes which also has the receiver requirements for Irish DTT is satelitte is a miracle in itself.

It wasnt built for here but actaully fits the spec withadd ons.

Rick_

Yes, unfortunatly, TV's with built in sat and DTT tuners will have everything seperate, so no joint EPG which would be quite handy I agree.

The only way to get a unified EPG is to buy one of the combo STB's out there for generic FTA satellite and DTT. Only thing is with Sat channels they may not have much more info apart from Now and Next unless the STB can be patched to receive EPG data from Freesat.

I myself am looking for a combo box but might hold off for another while to see if one comes out that has a DVB-T2 tuner in it, so then I could receive Freeview, Freesat, RTE DTT and HD Freeview all on the one receiver. If it has PVR functionality too, then all the better!

Schintzel

dgently wrote: »

Is he missing something, and is there a "unified" EPG (ie mix of DTT & Sat channels in the one EPG )offered by any of the combo STBs?

On my C-Tech 5000HD Combo after mixing channels from the two sources on the favourites list you can scroll seamlessly between DVB-T and DVB-S stations when viewing the EPG. At the moment there is only Now&Next info for the freesat channels but that's a different issue.

fat-tony

For the past 3 weeks or so I have been running DVBviewer on a small-footprint PC (HTPC) with satellite and terrestrial tuners and it has the full 7-day Freesat EPG and the 7-day Irish DTT EPG combined seamlessly. It doesn't use MHEG5 as the EPG data is transmitted in the received transponder/mux stream and is presented in an overlay window on screen. I can use the EPG for marking programmes to record and can record multiple programmes off one DTT mux simultaneously.
It's a flexible solution for techie-minded people, but not very family-friendly due to the need for keyboard input at some stages. Might be of interest to some people - have a look at the Home Entertainment section for HTPC and Media Centre.

STB

Thats different altogether. MHEG5 is the actual display system for Freesat and red button services. What you are talking about is taking raw table data (incidentally that fits into the MHEG5 designed Freesat menus)from a transponder and getting it to populate another menu system that has been designed for DVBViewer/Myth TV etc.

The point of the thread is that someone bought a freesat TV which has MHEG5 on both tuners DVB-T and DVB-S. You dont have to do any of that messing. It just works. The pioint is that the Freesat menu was not writen for Irish DTT and vice versa.

Whilst people are saying that they can mix dtt & fta sat channels on a combo box, the MHP table data that you receive on any combo box is very basic (especially for satelitte - now and next) and has flaws on some models with null boxes (on the clarke tech 5000HD).

I'd rather have the freesat epg data and have to switch to DTT with the menu any day over a combo box no real epg data setup. Cant you make favourites anyhow on theose LCD's!

fat-tony

I don't want to get into a debate with you over software vs combo box solutions. That's why I pointed people to the HTPC forums on this board if they are interested in going down that route.

As posted by myself and others - a combo box with embedded DTT , SAT, MHEG and seamless Freesat and Irish EPGs is the utopia:)

Until DTT goes live here and some manufacturer (if ever) produces a box meeting all the criteria, then people are going to have to compromise. You realise that, I realise that and technically-savvy contibutors to this forum realise that. But there are occasional posts where someone has been missold box A from a high-street retailer expecting it to work seamlessly and then come to boards looking for a fix or whatever. We need a campaign from the Dept. of Communications / comreg to educate the public on DTT and to crackdown on the sale of surplus MPEG-2 DTT kit being dumped on consumers here.

I'm finding the PC and DVBviewer very useful in diagnosing issues such as EPG problems and in understanding the structure of the datastreams and have reported my finding in various threads. I have an Mvision combo model and find it excellent for what it is and had a Globalteq combo before that.

STB

fat-tony wrote: »

As posted by myself and others - a combo box with embedded DTT , SAT, MHEG and seamless Freesat and Irish EPGs is the utopia:)

Until DTT goes live here and some manufacturer (if ever) produces a box meeting all the criteria, then people are going to have to compromise. You realise that, I realise that and technically-savvy contibutors to this forum realise that.

Tony, I know its what everyone wants and its the ultimate holy grail.

It will not however be intentionally manufactured for the Irish Market (we are too small a country) as it would not be in the interest of the commercial operator in boxer. So I'd get the whole idea of combo boxes out of your head as being available at "the launch". If you really want to have a combo that can gather freesat epg data and have dtt capability, then that azbox premium is the one to keep an eye on. Its a Linux box, I have heard that they are testing enigma2 on it which would allow for future freesat 7 day epg plus 7 day DTT.

Its likely we will see a few nice DTT only boxes from the likes of panasonic shortly.

fat-tony wrote: »

But there are occasional posts where someone has been missold box A from a high-street retailer expecting it to work seamlessly and then come to boards looking for a fix or whatever. We need a campaign from the Dept. of Communications / comreg to educate the public on DTT and to crackdown on the sale of surplus MPEG-2 DTT kit being dumped on consumers here.

Your preaching to the converted. I have been on this crusade for some time. Hence lists and lists of items that should be sold rather than selling convenient stock. I propose a name and shame thread of "FREVVIEW" products for a start. This should only list items that are specifically labelled freview or are LCD's advertised with a dvb-t tuner whose processor cannot decode mpeg4 broadcast streams and have no analogue tuner. In these 2 scenarios there is no place to hide. I had this discussion with the MD of the Phillips Shop Dublin/Richer Sounds some months ago. Its actually the retailers that are not stocking the right goods.

fat-tony wrote: »

I'm finding the PC and DVBviewer very useful in diagnosing issues such as EPG problems and in understanding the structure of the datastreams and have reported my finding in various threads.

Engineers love tweaking stuff. I'm sure its similar to the satisfaction of playing with an 8100A XT2. DTT will be stable in the coming months when its locked down. I use various transoport stream reporting tools myself for analysing broadcasts and dropped frames etc.

watty

For long time if you want perfect Freesat support and perfect DTT and good PVR you will need two boxes. The market for Combo is very very small as almost every other DTT country has free or small annual charge for their terrestrial channels on Satellite.

Sky is a Foreign PayTV provider. It's the only way to get our terrestrial channels on Satellite. Such a situation doesn't exist anywhere else.

Also fro example the Germans are not that fussed on getting Polish or French TV or even German speaking Austrian TV the way it's important to us. If they where, they'd get their own stations free on satellite.

World wide people will have one or the other. Ireland is too small a market for especial Combo Freesat / MPEG4 DTT boxes.

Get a super do everything remote.

Put both setboxes behing smoked glass (lets remote past) and then you won't see them. The extra power consumption is a fraction of the TV set.

Rippy

watty wrote: »

For long time if you want perfect Freesat support and perfect DTT and good PVR you will need two boxes. The market for Combo is very very small as almost every other DTT country has free or small annual charge for their terrestrial channels on Satellite.

Sky is a Foreign PayTV provider. It's the only way to get our terrestrial channels on Satellite. Such a situation doesn't exist anywhere else.

Also fro example the Germans are not that fussed on getting Polish or French TV or even German speaking Austrian TV the way it's important to us. If they where, they'd get their own stations free on satellite.

World wide people will have one or the other. Ireland is too small a market for especial Combo Freesat / MPEG4 DTT boxes.

Get a super do everything remote.

Put both setboxes behing smoked glass (lets remote past) and then you won't see them. The extra power consumption is a fraction of the TV set.

A common sense approach.

gtg60

watty wrote: »

Get a super do everything remote.

I have a Harmony and have done this up 'til recentley to get my 2 Sky HD boxes working together (one with proper sub card, one with FTV card) and whilst I think it is set up very simply (it is!) the WAF is low

I think the Holy Grail is a non subscription Combo box that does everything a Sky+ box can do i.e. EPG, dual recording, ease of use but like most people I don't expect an off-the-shelf solution anytime soon (ever).

Of course there are those of us that are going to keep trying, even building and programming HTPC's to do just that (who should be applauded for their efforts) and let's be honest for a lot of techies that route is probably easier and cheaper than going down the Linux box route but to each his own...

Of course, I have Sky multiroom so why I am even interested in this :rolleyes:

fat-tony

gtg60 wrote: »

Of course, I have Sky multiroom so why I am even interested in this :rolleyes:

Because, like me (and loads of others who frequent this forum), you're a gadget freak:)

Look guys, I know the market is tiny given our population base, but a couple of years ago there was no mainstream availability of satellite tuners embedded in TVs. Now you can buy TVs with integrated Freesat EPG plus Freeview DTT. We will always gain some benefit from the neighbouring marketplace in the UK. Convergence of different facilities will become the norm (as it certainly has in the mobile 'phone market). Why have a separate box (or a stack of boxes with associated remotes or all-in-one) when you will have a thin 100" panel on your wall with built-in tune-everything, record-anything on solid-state disk, with wi-fi connection to your sound system or whatever:D:D

In the meantime, those of us on the bleeding edge will continue to seek technological nirvana through a collection of disparate boxes and software, whill all the time trying to avoid the wrath of wife, girlfriend or loved one.... funny it's almost exclusively a male thing:)

scath

It shouldn't be long before T2 and MPEG4 TVs will be on the market, with the Granada region to migrate both to MPEG4 and DVB-T2 later this year in one swoop. A DVB Plug Fest to ensure compatibility and interoperability between DVB-T2 technologies ahead of the publication of the next generation terrestrial standard later this year went successfully in Turin recently with 6 DVB-T2 Modulators (DekTek, Rhode&Schwarz, ENENSYS Technologies, TeamCast, BBC, SSBT) and 5 Demodulators (DekTec, SIDSA, Panasonic, Sony, BBC) participating and tests carried out on the seven DVB-T2 transmission modes recommended by the UK regulator Ofcom for Britain’s DVB-T2 broadcasts.http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/?p=15710. Rhode and Schwarz supplied RTÉ earlier this year.

These TVs will be future proof for when RTÉ update the network to T2 so that coincides nicely for RTÉ.A TV with T2 and S2 should be easier to manufacture I suppose with similar elements in the technology? So I guess incompatibility with Freeview UK is soon to change since T2 is backward compatible with DVB-T.

I've said before that Freesat isn't necessarily bad for Boxer. Its only bad where Boxer try to charge for Free-to-air satellite channels. But there are better ways to do this. For example instead by focusing on Freesat-Boxer solution it could instead offer for instance adult PPV channels (subject to IFCO/BCI clearance) which would I'm sure make boxer more attractive. Those with Sky could easily join up to Boxer then with a combo box to get all the channels. With a combined EPG for Irish DTT it would have something over Sky.

It would allow easy switching between Sky and Boxer it would discourage customers going for cable yet provide Boxer with a similar offering to Sky or Cable. One thing it would do is push Sky into offering Freesat from Sky but it could certainly screw up the cable market or make it more competitive in what it offers at the basic packages.

Don't assume Boxer would not team up with Freesat. While its more likely they would not, they may do to make their offering more attractive. Its not true to say combo boxes are bad for Boxer. It can be or they can use it to their advantage. But one thing a combo does is make switching easier to Sky so that promoting satellite uptake might not necessarily be strategically great but it could offer a combo solution for sure by agreement with Freesat.

Anyhow, we have to see what happens. I wonder what'll happen with Boxer, will they look for RTE to rollout further transmitters to T2 instead of T1 and pay them a little more in order to have more channels to offer at launch? It would make sense for Boxer to go for T2 boxes anyways wouldn't it as it makes the upgrade to T2 seemless for the user rather than complaints in a few years of having to change box. Its minor I know.

Another thing that should be possible is for Boxer to agree specs with Top-up TV UK so that those who buy an NI box could buy a Top-Up TV box that has T2 and MPEG4. This would make things easier both for Top-Up TV and Boxer so that people moving to or from the UK can have a box work on both networks subject to enabling and to discourage purchase of Freeview HD boxes. I assume Boxer boxes would not have a UK option otherwise for installation. T2 and MPEG4 could make a decent business for Top-up TV as currently they have little spectrum due to Freeview and the UK muxes will be migrating over the next few years to T2.

Apogee

A DM8000 offers the potential of a combined DTT/Freesat EPG. I'm testing it with a DM7025 but the firmware will essentially be the same for the DM8000.



Obviously a DM7025 does not support Mpeg4 decompression, but you can stream the DTT channels to a PC or record the channels to HD and subsequently playback on PC. The Enigma2 software allows for multiple recording of streams on the same mux e.g. BBC1, BBC2 from satellite, RTÉ1 and TG4 from DTT.



So a DM8000 which comes with 2 DVB-S2 tuners preinstalled, with an additional DVB-T plugin tuner, would allow the full array of recording features.

byte

A DM8000 comes with a hefty price tag though? Before you even consider the additional DTT tuner. Highly customisable though, I suppose, but not sure it's worth the grand or so DMM expect for it.

Apogee

True, but I'm sure an entreprising outfit in China won't be long knocking out a cheaper clone!

kippy

How about one of these AZ boxes?
http://www.azbox.eu/
http://www.azboxhd.eu

They look the real deal although they are pretty new, from what I can see so there may be issues.
I am seriously considering getting one in a couple of months as it appears it will at least bring together a number of receiver options coupled with a media player and much more (if we are to believe the spiel)
Does anyone have one?

Kippy

byte

kippy wrote: »

How about one of these AZ boxes?
http://www.azbox.eu/
http://www.azboxhd.eu

They look the real deal although they are pretty new, from what I can see so there may be issues.
I am seriously considering getting one in a couple of months as it appears it will at least bring together a number of receiver options coupled with a media player and much more (if we are to believe the spiel)
Does anyone have one?

Kippy

Indeed, like a lot of these boxes that promise many wonders, I'd wait til I heard from somebody who has one first. The first pic on that site is a photoshop, the display doesn't look fancy like on the pic (somebody mentioned that it's teh display of a Sony AV amplifier, thus the "Cinema Studio EX" text).

kippy

byte wrote: »

Indeed, like a lot of these boxes that promise many wonders, I'd wait til I heard from somebody who has one first. The first pic on that site is a photoshop, the display doesn't look fancy like on the pic (somebody mentioned that it's teh display of a Sony AV amplifier, thus the "Cinema Studio EX" text).

Yeah,
I had read the a lot of the pics of the receiver on the net were photoshopped. A sony blue ray player was what I read.
Theres one or two other sites out there which have "better" pics.

Hopefully these provide a realistic option. If it does what it says on the tin it does appear to be the be all and end all. If it can pick up FTA dish signals, play media files from an internal/external drive then I'd be pretty happy to dish out for it,
Kippy

slegs

I will have my hands on an Azbox Elite within the next week. I will let you know what its like.

STB

The Dvb-T modules are not vailable as yet for the Azbox Premium or Elite afaik.

Qbox One is the other one that perhaps will do all. Again these boxes poromised the world as any beta tester will proably tell you. What invariably happens is that the product is trimmed down of its hardware OR is badly supported.

slegs

DVB-T Modules available in a week or 2

slegs

OK, have my hands on the AZBox Elite. I'm biased so take from this what you like.

Never had a Linux based box before so didnt know what to expect but I have found it very user friendly and I havent had to fiddle too much or do any command line stuff at all.

Out of box was configured with Dutch language so had to feel my way to change that. Changing the video settings was simple as you'd expect.

Picture quality is excellent. The UI is the nicest I have seen in any set top box to date - very slick and easy on the eye. It has a similar feel to the Sony crossbar menus from PS3 etc.

Did and channel search and it was quite quick compared to what I am used to. All the satellites are preset. Channel sorting /editing is a little longwinded (in and out of menus etc) but I guess it wont be long until we have Astra 2 and other channel lists.

Plugged in my ethernet cable which runs up to my router via powerline sockets. It picked up an IP address via DHCP without any config. Did an internet software update (it offered me the last three firmware releases) and this worked very cleanly. This is a really useful feature considering the firmware will update regularly. Update took about 10 mins without any intervention once kicked off.

Tested the Youtube, RSS and browser functions. The Youtube app is very impressive on the box - very easy to use and using the remote to type descriptions for searches is very intuitive. Really liked the RSS reader also, much easier to use than the browser itself.

Plugged in my USB drive that I was using with the Mvision and it picked it up immediately. Did a format which took a good while (maybe 20 mins). Tested a couple of recordings which worked no bother - didnt do any scheduled stuff yet. Put my TRex can with Sky FTV card in. Worked fine with Channel4HD and Fiver.

Connected to my PC via the File Manager and copied a DIVX movie to the USB drive. Played back no problem. Also streaming a movie from the PC and this worked well also.

The software for the Elite is the same as the premium so there is some redundant menus e.g. Movies on the menu is set for a location on an internal drive - you have to navigate to the USB drive or Network to choose files frolm there. Maybe this can be changed under the hood of the Elite.

Anyway, thats it for now, the wife is looking at me here at 1:30 like Im gone mad. There are screenshots of the menus and OSD in my website.

STB

Yeah I saw your ebay comments about it being the bomb..... well good news once they keep the support up. Its a good price slegs. Hope they get the dvb-t modules out. You can just slot one in next to the sat tuner, right ?

I'm not allowed any more boxes! More importantly is it user friendly (can the wife use it... or is it anorak/gadget gear ?)

slegs

Yes, there is spare slot for a second DVB-S2 or a DVB-T card. These are to be available very shortly around the same time as the Premium. I think its very user friendly but the features like Youtube and DIVX files etc arent going to be aimed at your granny . I think the Youtube app is particularly impressive and easy to use.

mullingar

@ slegs,

Any word of any STB available with a merged 7-day (free)SAT/DTT EPG?

slegs

I've been told that the AZbox can take the Enigma2 Linux image and that this can run the freesat EPG so in theory when the DVB-T tuner is added the AZbox can have a merged full EPG. Havent tried this out myself yet as the DVB-T tuners are a week or two away. Will keep you updated here.

Onikage

But then you lose the slick interface, right?

slegs

Onikage wrote: »

But then you lose the slick interface, right?

Don't know what Enigma2 looks like...

Onikage

I guess it is the one in Apogee's post #14

mullingar

slegs wrote: »

Don't know what Enigma2 looks like...

Found this link of Enigma2 screenshots on a DM7025.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/kuvagalleria/enigma2/index.html

slegs

Some updates RE AZbox

- Have submitted the request to Manufacturer and SW developers for freesat EPG in future firmware
- Comment noted earlier about Movie/Picture/Music shortcuts. Have found out how to map USB folders to these remote control shortcuts
- You can also map the shortcuts to network locations like NAS drives or desktop PC including PVR folder
- Found a channel editor that is easy to use and communicates with the box directly. Have created a UK FTA channel list than can be shared.
- The unit has an inbuilt RF modulator with configurable channel selection

byte

Good stuff. Interesting that it has an RF modulator. While many may not see the point, I for one find it very important for around-the-house pics (albeit mono).

It should be a box to keep an eye on in the future.

johndoc

slegs wrote: »

I've been told that the AZbox can take the Enigma2 Linux image and that this can run the freesat EPG so in theory when the DVB-T tuner is added the AZbox can have a merged full EPG. Havent tried this out myself yet as the DVB-T tuners are a week or two away. Will keep you updated here.

Howdy slegs.

Any update on the premium or the DVB-T cards yet?
Watching this one with interest - seems as though its trying to tick as many boxes as possible.

Maybe the AZbox / premium deserves its own thread when the latest news emerges?????

slegs

johndoc wrote: »

Howdy slegs.

Any update on the premium or the DVB-T cards yet?
Watching this one with interest - seems as though its trying to tick as many boxes as possible.

Maybe the AZbox / premium deserves its own thread when the latest news emerges?????

Hi John

Premiums will be with me of next week. I've been told DVB-T cards are 2 weeks later. I have the guy who did the Freesat/Sky EPG for DVBViewer/Mediaportal engaged to do the same for the AZBox. He has told me he will have a plugin within 2 weeks. Will keep you updated.

I would be happy obviously for the AZBox to have its own thread but as I have a vested interest I will leave that for others to do and i will contribute as appropriate where I can add information of interest. Have sold some already so maybe one of the boards contributors has one and will do an unbiased review.